The role of 2D drawing in the growing 3D world

[Sethelic]

Hi,

For those of you who are into doing realistic rendering of illustration. i'm interested to hear your opinions about 2D vs 3D concept art in the near future.

Do you think its better to spend all your time learning how to master a 3d software like maya or spend all your time learning classical 2D drawing theory & drawing in digital mediums?

i find the entertainment industry where most concept artists would like to end up in is moving towards a 3D industry. The time spent drawing a precise calculation of perspective,shadow casting, values, composition could instead be used to create a 3D model whose composition you can change at any time and you don't have to learn & go through the labourious work of casting linear perspective lines especially for organic or curve subjects. The reflections, values, shadow shapes would also be calculated precisely.

Personally, i'm more into realistic rendering of illustration like painting a photograph that does not exist rather than expressing personal touch with hand drawn lines and such. Plus, you could always animate the scene if you want to, else you can just use it as a scene where can change your pov, composition & lighting any time.

i create entirely in digital media including the sketches and such, so i was wondering what do you guys think? should i make the switch to focus on 3D?

[Dan.v.D.]

drawing is all about design and developing taste, things that are easily overlooked if you dive into the overwhelming world of 3d. technology has the tendency to suck you in and shift your focus to specifics that don't help the big picture. i'd advise you to either pick up 3d on demand and focus on 2d and art or if your that type of guy go all out with technology, but that includes coding.

[Zaknafain]

the strenght of 2d is speed, intuitive design and presentation.
my 2d 3d workflow goes like this:
- sketches and thumbnails in 2d
- 3d construction model and composition (composition is the biggest strength of 3d because you can move things around really quick)
- (sometimes 3d lighting reference)
- finishing up in 2d

no 3d rendering can be as beautiful as a 2d painting. Also 2d is much faster and allows much more direct control.
Different of course in animation and realtime. But I wont say anything about it as I know nothing about animation.

[Seedling]

While being able to knock together a concept in 3D is useful, a concept artist who isn’t able to churn out drawings is likely to find the competition getting the jobs. Drawing 3D forms in 2D using perspective may seem like more tedium than modeling at first, but when you know how to do it skillfully, it’s a much faster means of getting to a final result. That’s the whole point of a concept artist: they are paid to try out ideas before the time is invested to develop them in 3D. Additionally, not every company is going to be able to afford a seat of Maya, or whatever program, for their concept artist. That’s a several-thousand-dollar crutch, there.

BTW, Seth, if you are interested in making games, there’s a link in my sig that may interest you.

[Zaknafain]

While being able to knock together a concept in 3D is useful, a concept artist who isn’t able to churn out drawings is likely to find the competition getting the jobs. Drawing 3D forms in 2D using perspective may seem like more tedium than modeling at first, but when you know how to do it skillfully, it’s a much faster means of getting to a final result. That’s the whole point of a concept artist: they are paid to try out ideas before the time is invested to develop them in 3D. Additionally, not every company is going to be able to afford a seat of Maya, or whatever program, for their concept artist. That’s a several-thousand-dollar crutch, there.

BTW, Seth, if you are interested in making games, there’s a link in my sig that may interest you.

ok I guess I have to agree with you that drawing is generally much faster than modeling. BUT once you have a model you can try out several compositions, viewpoints and everything else much faster. Additional it helps you with the blueprints because if your concept gets approved you already have a precise base for orthos.

Of course take everything I said with a grain of salt because all the conceptwork I did until now was for mod projects only...
but I found that workflow really efficient especially because with some of the newer programs like sketchup, every ape can learn and use 3d in a small amount of time.

[Sethelic]

thanks for the tip!

I was just thinking those of us who are into realistic illustrations, aren't we all tryign to make our 2D art as 3D as possible, so i was wondering if we can get proficient at 3D wouldn't it save the steep learning curve of rendering certain 2d aspects.
Especially when as concept artists we are more concerned about depicting our concepts rather than showing others how good our technicals skills are.

I find the realistic light & shade drawing of complex form in perspective view to be challenging, i'm not referring to big forms. its those little nitty gritty areas of forms or organic forms that really are challenging. Sometimes, i wonder if i missed out any detail in the scene that i did not touch upon. And how much of light would reach it, since its all 2D nothing really blocks anything, whereas in 3D u just cast a light source & what kinda of shadow/shade would result from different forms interacting at different distances would all be done nicely for u.
I know the purpose of concept art isn't really to create perfect detail of reality, but its just me.. i feel that i want to be as close to reality as possible especially with the value change of the scene for those objects not in focus as well

[Flake]

in 3D u just cast a light source & what kinda of shadow/shade would result from different forms interacting at different distances would all be done nicely for u.

That's assuming that you have a lot of knowledge on how to set up materials/shaders and light a scene in 3d.

It isn't as easy as modelling an object, pointing a spotlamp at it then hitting the "make awesome render" button, far from it- materials and lighting in 3d are artforms in themselves.

[Zaknafain]

That's assuming that you have a lot of knowledge on how to set up materials/shaders and light a scene in 3d.

It isn't as easy as modelling an object, pointing a spotlamp at it then hitting the "make awesome render" button, far from it- materials and lighting in 3d are artforms in themselves.

thats true. You can't do it 3d nor 2d if you don't understand why you see what you see.
On the other hand, if you can paint it, its just a matter of technique to do the same with 3d. And the other way around I guess...

[Sethelic]

That's assuming that you have a lot of knowledge on how to set up materials/shaders and light a scene in 3d.

It isn't as easy as modelling an object, pointing a spotlamp at it then hitting the "make awesome render" button, far from it- materials and lighting in 3d are artforms in themselves.

agree. thats why i was thinking if i should focus more time on trying to master the 3d aspects because its really a whole new world over there. I'm seeing it like an investment of time & of course the trade-off is also the time you lose to hone your 2d skills.

[Angroc]

well, personally, I have fell in love with combining the two, and I must say I find it uttermost useful having skills in both artforms. there's just so many benefits you get from combining 2d and 3d in your conceptual work. so lets break down the benefits of each, and I how I like to combine them:

2d is fast and furious. you can design and let your imagination flow in a almost supersonic way. with 2d, you can construct a concept INSIDE your head; from a vague idea to a firm, mental image that you know by heart. for this process, you dont need a fancy image you have spent days on; no fancy super realistic shading, not even clean lines. all that matters is that you construct your idea into a *firm, metal image*, that you can twist and turn inside your head. and at that stage, your ready to launch the 3d app.

with this, all that tedious work of making orthographic images is uneeded. detailed, small things is also uneeded, as you can experiment as you model. an important thing to remember is that something that is 2d often has to be 'translated' to 3d, because personally, I "cheat" alot when doing 2d.

however, this is for animation. for still images, I think 3d takes way to much time for what its worth. I do 3d for the fourth dimention. less, I'd think its a waste, personally.

[viperxmns]

It seems knowledge of 3D programs is becoming a basic necessity for working in the field, or rather to be a well-rounded visual artist in general. So as an experienced traditional artist it's intimidating, but prudent. But a foundation in good-ole pencil on paper drawing is a must. So I say becoming familiar as possible with the 3D CG stuff couldn't hurt.

[Seedling]

It seems knowledge of 3D programs is becoming a basic necessity for working in the field, or rather to be a well-rounded visual artist in general.

No, there are many types of art for which the time spent learning 3D can certainly be a waste of time. For example, print illustration, sequential art, graphic design, traditional animation, printmaking, and on and on. However, every last one of these disciplines absolutely requires an understanding of how to use pencil and paper.

Having been there myself, I know what a scary thing it can be to realize as an art student that there are complex 3D tools that need to be learned for certain jobs. However, the learning of the tools absolutely must not get in the way of learning traditional skills, because it is the traditional art skills that can gain an artist admittance into a variety of careers. Tools can be learned casually, but solid art skills can’t. To focus on learning tools to the detriment of art skills is a dangerous temptation to students right now.

[Flake]

Tools can be learned casually, but solid art skills can’t. To focus on learning tools to the detriment of art skills is a dangerous temptation to students right now.

Couldn't agree more.

[chaosrocks]

no Kidding!!! knockem out Seedy!

chaos

[Zaknafain]

Tools can be learned casually, but solid art skills can’t. To focus on learning tools to the detriment of art skills is a dangerous temptation to students right now.

this is signature stuff...

I'd like to add though that learning many tools is like reviewing a problem from many sides. In the end it will give you the big picture.
If you learn drawing with vanishingpoints you learn a system to create an illusion. If you mess around with camera lens stuff and 3d ortho/perspective problems you can gather additional knowledge.

if technique and tools wouldn't be a way to understand, then nobody would need to learn traditional media anymore.

[Zaknafain]

hah! look what nice mullins quote I found:

Tools arent a bad thing, they train foundation which isnt a medium or a technique. It is a way of seeing, and communicating through your eyes to brain to hand to produce to communicate or evoke in others feelings of any kind that stir them...use all art as a basis for what art is, but dont fall into a rule trap if you can allow yourself.

lemens posted this in ff today

[Sethelic]

wow, lots of quality discussion & suggestions being shared here. really cool..

btw, which 3D software is the industry standard for the 3D Matte painting & concept art industry?

Is Maya an overkill since the emphasis would be on 3D modelling and realistic rendering rather than animation. i ask this because the time it takes to produce work is very crucial on a professional level.

[viperxmns]

No, there are many types of art for which the time spent learning 3D can certainly be a waste of time. For example, print illustration, sequential art, graphic design, traditional animation, printmaking, and on and on. However, every last one of these disciplines absolutely requires an understanding of how to use pencil and paper.

I think I confused my point in my original post- knowledge of computer art programs are becoming essential, such as Adobe Illustrator. Not necessarily 3D.

[Seedling]

All art programs are just tools. The ability to learn new tools on the go is a very useful skill. However, there are many applications of art skills that do not require any knowlege of any computer program.

[HunterKiller_]

For proof that 3D skills will never be more important than traditional drawing skills, just go look at the job application information on the sites of big companies who use 3D animation. Dreamworks and Pixar just to name a couple.

You'll find that they state traditional animation skills as a requirement over 3D software knowledge, even though all animation produced by these companies are in 3D form.