To Everyone In The Employment Section!

[Jason Manley]

First, thanks to everyone who posts in this section for work and for employees as it keeps the artists afloat around the world. We encourage you to continue creating jobs and completing jobs within the community.

To those few who will act un-professionally: Conceptart.org will not tolerate any unprofessional behavior by artists or employers in this section. This is a key area to the site and we will not see it brought down at all by unprofessional behavior of any kind. If you want to act like children instead of professionals, you may join a different community. We aren't interested in having that around here.

Any unprofessional behavior (use your imagination...) will result in immediate banning.

Do we need rules in here?

Thanks again to all who make this a great spot to find jobs and to find artists.


Jason Manley
ConceptArt.Org

[ender.saka]

The idea of what is professional and what un-professionally behavior change person-to-person.

In the interest of all Artists but also Employers, what do you mean by un-professionally behavior?

Thanks.

[CalicoPaisley]

I agree, as sad as this is, some people do need this spelled out for them; the younger more inexperienced folks especially. You have to be taught first in order to learn. I reccomend making a "dos and don'ts" list of some kind.

[JoyMason]

As unfortunate as it is, yes, some guidelines may help some people. Though I think most of the artists using this site act professionally, it would be a shame for the site to lose credibility due to a handful who cannot act professionally. I think some basic guidelines would take away the "I didn't know" excuse, or the "well, -my- opinion of professionalism is.." ect.

[Eric Lofgren]

it would be a shame for the site to lose credibility due to a handful who cannot act professionally.

Well, I think that's the very reason for Jason's post. No credibility to the site would be lost since the perps would be unconditionally banned, asap.

I think some basic guidelines would take away the "I didn't know" excuse, or the "well, -my- opinion of professionalism is.." ect.

Personally, I don't agree. I think anytime you establish a rules set, you also establish the means for argument. As no one can ever leave well enough alone. Anywhere else on the site, yes, rules heavy, rules lite, whatever works. But in the Employment forum it should be zero tolerance.

And if anyone doesn't know what it means to act professionally, then they should look it up in a dictionary. I don't think it's meaning is really up for any sort skewed personal interpretation.

Just my two cents

[butcher]

just my quick two cents ...

I actually think that having a simple "act professionally" reminder now and again is enough. If people aren't smart enough to figure out what "acting professionally" is, they'd argue with any rules that are given them to justify their own actions.

And thanks for keeping tabs on this! This is about the only forum I've seen that doesn't have forum trolls or fake ads. =)

[ender.saka]

For those who are not agree to make a "professionality guideline".
You should remember that people in the world have different behaviors, cultures and ideas. And also consitering that the rule-breaking punishment is ban, I think that people should be informed of what is not considered professional behavior in the posts for the Employnet section.

Thanks.

[S.C. Watson]

For those who are not agree to make a "professionality guideline".
You should remember that people in the world have different behaviors, cultures and ideas. And also consitering that the rule-breaking punishment is ban, I think that people should be informed of what is not considered professional behavior in the posts for the Employnet section.

Thanks.

It's very simple and self evident: BE POLITE.

Anything less will get you banned.

[magnut]

Though I've not posted in this section for a while, I feel compelled to put my Two Cents in.

I got 'spanked' recently by some moderator in this section for being 'unprofessional'. I know that I wasn't, because I was simply trying to politely argue the point that people who purport themselves as employers should be upfront with others about what they're paying, just like actual professional employers' standards require.

I've argued all the good points, but in the end, it really doesn't matter.

Simply put, anyone who wants work must be wary of anyone who posts their job opportunites in this forum. Be skeptical. If no one gives good information, then either take your chance with him, or move on.

There are very legitimate job opportunities that are posted here! Just because no one responds to your emails, doesn't mean that they're being unprofessional. They just don't think you fit into what they want.

That's it. What I've discovered on this forum is that it doesn't matter that you rightfully argue that employers be forthright in their posts. What matters is that the moderators simply don't want arguments of any kind in their forums. I think that blanket policy is unnecessarily limiting on some levels, but I must admit that if I were running a forum, I would want there to be a calm balance also, even if it came across as being a bit severe.

Even though I tried to poke some of these employers to get them to be forthright, I know now that I was basically spinning my wheels, getting nowhere, having no impact on anyone. It became a waste of time.

So, just be smart when dealing with the employers who post jobs! Don't waste your time posting into the ethernet your compaints, when no one is really reading them.

Except, of course, the moderator that will ban you.

[Justin.]

Also, just for reference, I believe there are to be no Cookie Cutter replies either.

[rorke]

So, just be smart when dealing with the employers who post jobs! Don't waste your time posting into the ethernet your complaints, when no one is really reading them.
Except, of course, the moderator that will ban you.

Yeah I agree with that completely any complaint made in the employment section really just lands on deaf ears. Cause 2 days after you spill out your guts about an injustice in the this section... you see some other swindler doing the exact same thing. I think anything really complained about in the employment section is a waste of breath... cause you are going to have unreasonable request all the time in this business. Get used to it... move on... and know what you are worth. That or get a magic bottle and start rubbin. ....either way

[ender.saka]

It's very simple and self evident: BE POLITE.

As I read in the previous post from magnut, argue anything in the Employment forum could be considered unprofessional.

Also, the idea of "BE POLITE" can change from culture to culture and person to person, it is not only a matter of professionality.

magnut say: "So, just be smart when dealing with the employers who post jobs! Don't waste your time posting into the ethernet your compaints, when no one is really reading them."
About this I think that things must be said. Not to be read from the moderators or the employers but, for example, to make newbie artists aware of unprofessional behaviors.
Also, this is a Forum. If I cannot discuss and argue, it does not fit its purpose.

I am one that often made notice about too low offers. For many people this can be considered unprofessional, while I think it is right to make Employers aware of what is the right price for the kind of work they required.

So now, I can keep silence and simply make my business. But what do we learn from this conduct?

(I am sorry for my poor English)

Thanks.

[S.C. Watson]

I'm not going to debate the issue here, however I will say that I believe we all have a fairly good grasp of what "Polite" is, so splitting hairs here is really pointless. Some of the posts I've seen from prospective employees have been entirely uncalled for.

Now, if there is an employer who is taking advantage of artists here, the mods and admin want to know about it. But if they're just offering low pay, remain professional. Not everyone who posts jobs here is a game company or Lucasarts. Many of them that I've seen are private individuals who don't have very deep pockets. If the price is not what you want, move on.

What we don't want is a yelling match in the threads. If something comes up that we need to be aware of, report it.

~Oreg.

[Jason Manley]

If you want to have discussion about the jobs or employment that can go in the employment discussion forum...keep all needless chatter and banter out of this jobs section.

Respect, politeness, thinking before you write or speak, all are parts of professional behavior. I expect this to be the most professionally handled area of the community. There is a zero tolerance policy now toward unprofessional behavior. Simple as that.

Best of luck to everyone who is reaching out to get work and to those looking for the right people. Please keep it up!

Best,


Jason Manley

[ender.saka]

But if they're just offering low pay, remain professional.

This is your idea. Not all professionals think the same.

If you want to have discussion about the jobs or employment that can go in the employment discussion forum...

I just answered readly to that posts with my impressions and critiques.
Though if you do not want this kind of posts in the "JOB LISTINGS & EMPLOYERS", why do not you forbid it automatically? You can explain to employers to always use and email or pm, and automatically block any reply posts. This way, there is no need for discussions about professional behavior, considering that you expressed clearly you do not want them.

Thanks.

[Snuggles]

As someone who's trying to break into supplementing his day job/schoolwork with artwork, Ender, I'd prefer it if people didn't scare potential employers away from the forums because of pay issues. I can understand that you want to have some say in these jobs, but don't do so at the expense of other CA goers. $50 (or some other low amount) for some art might seem like a complete injustice to you, but it's something I can put towards my rent and put in my resume.

[ender.saka]

$50 (or some other low amount) for some art might seem like a complete injustice to you, but it's something I can put towards my rent and put in my resume.

Ok, I understand that if this is the level of professionality I have no more to say. Just to make you understand that we have different ideas of what is a professional behavior.

[CaneHoyer]

I agree with ender!

There are so many employers offers that are absolutely unprofessional, that you should give them also the advice, to behave professional.

Job offers that are below a minimum of payment may seem to be a good entry for some artists, or a little extra money for those moonlighters, but they are in first an affront to professional artist, and they are the death of real priced artworks.

The result of underpayment will be that always the well known artists get their desired payment, but for all others and I guess thats the majority of you artists, not so well known, it will be a fight for rates, cause there are always replies working for a handshake!

So if employers won't behave as well as professionals, this forum will be nothing more than a joke for profs, or do you really think a professional would be looking in this forum for jobs beneath his living?

[rorke]

why don't you forbid it automatically? You can explain to employers to always use and email or pm, and automatically block any reply posts.
Thanks.

I actually think that this would be a great idea! I mean that way we wont get the cookie cutter replies that we always seem to get. And I think when there isn't an over whelming response from artists new artists wont feel intimidated because so many have already applied for the job... They'll just send the email and see what happens, cause they wont know how many have applied already.
This way if someone really feels offended by the price they can get the balls to email the employer themselves without involving the forum.
I feel like making it more a one on one with the employers perhaps would make better chances for getting the jobs. If you want more information... talk directly with the employer... If you want to drop your portfolio email it to the employer. You know.... I mean most forums these days have more of a "I leave my job offer and you email me" sort a deal. And I think that cuts the random bickering off at the legs. It's just a suggestion. I don't mean to cause a debate with it.. I just think that if you want to stop people from being retarded... you basically have to duck tape their mouths.

Also if you notice most of the bickering is caused by newer members who don't know any better and think they are waving a flag for justice by slamming the under paying employers... a lot like I did when I first got on here cause I simply didnt know any better.

But I also feel if we did it this way we should have a sticky thread on what artists should be looking out for. Make a Job Awareness thread so that non of our artists get too badly skammed.

This way... instead of having someone rag on you because you applied for a job (that was too under paid in that persons mind)... its more of..a... make up your own mind cause no one is forcing you to do it.

Live and Learn

It's just a suggestion.

I know that the bad part about locking the posts would mean that the employer could not go back and edit... or bump the job offer if no one has gotten the job yet. Perhaps the moderaters could solve that so that only the employers could reply and edit to their own threads or something... almost like the employers own Job Blog.

[Eric Lofgren]

There are so many employers offers that are absolutely unprofessional, that you should give them also the advice, to behave professional.

Not to belabour this point too much, but a potential client offering a small compensation is in no way acting unprofessional becasue of that offer.

[ender.saka]

Not to belabour this point too much, but a potential client offering a small compensation is in no way acting unprofessional becasue of that offer.

If you read all posts you will see that someone think the same as you and someone not. So, do you still think that it is not necessary to define what Administrator means for "professional"? Or do you believe that you and those that think like you are keepers of the absolute truth and that others are, simply, ignorants?

[Snuggles]

If you read all posts you will see that someone think the same as you and someone not. So, do you still think that it is not necessary to define what Administrator means for "professional"? Or do you believe that you and those that think like you are keepers of the absolute truth and that others are, simply, ignorants?

Well, if you're going to say it that way, then why are you making a fuss that makes it harder for people that think different than you? :o

Also, I think the idea about the getting rid of comments might be helpful. There've been a few jobs I've been pretty intimidated about.

[ender.saka]

Well, if you're going to say it that way, then why are you making a fuss that makes it harder for people that think different than you? :o

I am making no fuss. Just argue.

At the beginning of this thread I asked the Administrator for a definition of "professional behavior", considering that not all the Artists have the same idea of this term. This definition has never been made, and I got also some unusefull answers telling me how much clear to all the world is the meaning of "polite". Polite? But are not we talking about the meaning of "professional behavior"?

Someone are agree with me, someone not, and someone else have another different idea. Considering that there are at least 3 different ideas of what is "professional behavior", all that I ask is a definition, so we know how Administrator wants we to behave.

If you consider this a fuss, maybe we need also a definition of fuss, becouse I am begining to think that soon or later you start to label me as a "troll".

[rorke]

perhaps just to get rid of the confusion on what is polite and what is not polite we should just get rid of the reply option all together... and then we wont have to have needless bickering.

[ender.saka]

perhaps just to get rid of the confusion on what is polite and what is not polite we should just get rid of the reply option all together... and then we wont have to have needless bickering.

Yes, I am agree. I first suggested the idea to block any reply to job offers. And I still think that, if the Administrator wants such a severe policy, the best solution is blocking any replay and use only email or pm.

For that it regards to me, I will never more answer any job offer in this forum. This does not meen that I hate Employers or Artists that are not agree with me. Simply is not feasible to living on the knife edge each time I reply an offer.

Thanks.

[S.C. Watson]

You don't seem to have a grasp on what is polite and what is not polite yourself. Perhaps if you didn't sound so self-righteous and negative to someone else's opinion your response would have been better taken. =0

Um. I'd watch it if I were you. Mike was considerate enough to take the time to explain something that really should NOT have to be explained, and coming back at him like that just is not warrented.
---
Now, a heads up: I WILL BAN, without remorse, anyone who pushes their luck with this. There a couple of people in the jobs forum that I'm watching in particular. Any bitching at me about this will not score you points. Don't like it? Too damn bad. This isn't your sandbox. Behave yourself, play nice, be polite and you don't have anything to worry about.

[Tyranx]

rorke - Well that was pretty unprofessional.

Mike is one of the most helpful guys on this forum, just the fact that he went out of his way to explain something that should not have to be explained says alot about how dedicated he is to this community.

Think before you speak, please.

[rorke]

people chill out

[CaneHoyer]

Even if some people think this forum is professional, IT IS NOT!

A forum where 95% of the job offers are below a minimum of what artists should get for their work is supporting the drifting down of prices and the breakup of a profession!

The only reliable job offers are those of established studios, all the rest is something for hobby artists (not professionals!) and those working aside the law (criminals!).

So do you really think a professional is looking here for a job?
I don't care about this forum, I am member her since 04 and from time to time have a look in here (more in the other sections), but never found an employer, beside the established ones, who would feel up to pay a regular price.

Yes there should be a forum for hobby artists, but please don't call that professional!

And don't ask artists to behave professional if there are employers laughing at them!

[Jason Embury]

wow. you know, I've found more work, and made more money from job offers in this forum than anywhere else on the net. Including many cases where I was able to negotiate upwards with an employer from the starting point they had with their budget. I think this entire thread is turning into exactly the type of thing that was originally not wanted. There are some actively good suggestions on how to improve this section of the forums though. However, coming across as abrasive and aggressive (or passive aggressive) isn't going to help any situation, and likely is what turns employers away from you. There ARE plenty of serious employers on this part of the forum, many sometimes post a mediocre wage, just to see what sort of response they get. The more professional your response and correspondance with a potential employer, the more they value your worth as a freelance employee (because all employers are looking at more than JUST your porfolio) It's a mistake to think that employers are not reading threads like this as well. Being professional goes well beyond being polite in an employers job offer thread. If you offend others by being mean spirited and callous towards artists and other members of the forums in general, chances are good that they're not going to be knocking on your door to do any work for them.