I am looking for some mean critiques

[Pesmerga]

Enough with cards already! I decided to paint a drawing of mine.

100% photoshop (exept the line art in HB) ~3 hours so far:


Original Sketch:

[Doomgriever]

u should have sent the original sketch first, before coloring it.... u have some anatomy issues that u might want to change really. her whole upper body is wrong angle and misplaced 0__o and the head is in disposition (this is no flaming, sorry but its true)
the bakground (outside the window) is still unclear to me 0_o can u say what it is? i know its not ready, but is it suppose to be mountains?
the coloring is the thing that is most ok at the moment =) but i cant really crit more than that >_< atm =) good luck

[Pixeldragoon]

You call me severe, but then ask for mean critiques?

For starters;
The ksin is too glossy. Unless it's water coated, skin doesn't have those small white reflections (Specular highlights). However, metal is more likely in certain lighting conditions, to have them than skin. With the bands going across her calves; On one leg it crosses directly on the front, while on the other it crosses off center. Her neck area is so crowded with values I can't really tell what kind of form you were trying to put in there, and the neck position makes the head look sort of disconnected. The forearm holding the staff is a bit too long, the wrist is a bit too far out. Her head is also quite small. Or at least, the features on her head are very small, and the mouth is out of perspective. I tried re-enacting that pose, and it is quite uncomfortable. And as I'm sure you are aware, there are a bunch of uncompleted looking areas all around her, as if you did this all on the same layer. Also, there are some lighting issues with the cloth on her skirt and on her knee. Also- there seems to be gold reflected on her breastplate,

This piece, where a lightsource is very apparent, it can be good to put in cast shadows. So you know what parts are in the light, what parts aren't in the light. It has the potential to add alot of depth to a piece. You might also think of adding some objects, vases, gourds, or something, to help keep the eye in a motion.


I'm doing a paintover right now, so expect one. I just don't want to close this window and lose everything I said.

EDIT: OH SNAP- I don't mean this offensivley, but I honestly truley thought it was a painting. Putting the detail of a landscape out there (not to mention the light for the big blue sky) would totally mess up the composition/lighting. IMO, unless it's a critical part of the picture, turn it into a big abstract painting. It would fit the pic ALOT better, and make it easier.

The reason why it would hurt the composition is because it's this small cut off area that goes OUT. it's an "escape", and the eye would read it that way. You want to keep the eye in the piece, and a giant abstract painting (or just general shapes) low detail and stuff, would be simple and spice up the pic, without being too detailed/self-attractive.

[Pixeldragoon]

This is as far as I got. (Inbetween eating dinner and such.)

I am pretty sure this gives you a good idea of some of my crits. Feel free to take it from here, if you like.

[Pesmerga]

Woah! Thanks a bunch for that. Yeah, I understand a bit better what you were trying to say. You just put that brown in her legs? That's the way you shade?

lol, thanks guys. Gosh, you're so angry and mean and full of hate I love you guys

Yeah, I probably shoud've posted my sketch and corrected my mistakes first. Oh well, I'll be more carefull next time. That thing in the bg is supposed to be some sort of landscape. Or random lines if you prefer.

Her neck area is so crowded with values I can't really tell what kind of form you were trying to put in there

Haha, yes. In the original sketch she had like a necklace and a tissu collar or whatever. Then I thought it looked odd so I tried to erase it. It ended all messed up as you can see.

I tried re-enacting that pose, and it is quite uncomfortable.

lol, so what? A lot of masters have done it in the past. A pose doesn't have to be comfortable. It just has to be cool (or persuasive). But you're right lol. This pose is kinda strange for a sitting human. btw, Michelango's David has a practicly impossible standing pose. But it remains convincing (unlike mine ).

Haha, and if you think her head is too small. I strongly suggest you revise your anatomy! I even think her head is a little too big!! =p lol, maybe not.

and as I'm sure you are aware, there are a bunch of uncompleted looking areas all around her, as if you did this all on the same layer.

Yeah. I only used 5 layers (bad habbit of mine). I got the background, the skintones, her clothing, shadows and highlights. Plus, I don't have a tablet so it's kinda hard to get accurate.

This piece, where a lightsource is very apparent, it can be good to put in cast shadows. So you know what parts are in the light, what parts aren't in the light. It has the potential to add alot of depth to a piece. You might also think of adding some objects, vases, gourds, or something, to help keep the eye in a motion.

I'll try to do that next time. thanks for the tip.

I don't mean this offensivley, but I honestly truley thought it was a painting. Putting the detail of a landscape out there (not to mention the light for the big blue sky) would totally mess up the composition/lighting. IMO, unless it's a critical part of the picture, turn it into a big abstract painting. It would fit the pic ALOT better, and make it easier.

The hell with bg I guess. So she needs to sit her lovely butt somewhere abstract? Cool

Seems like you know your stuff. I'm a bit disapointed though. I thought you'd be a lot more meaner

[Pixeldragoon]

Really? I tried to be nicer because you were so offended at what I said earlier.

Perhaps her HAIR was too big, but her head, according to how her face was drawing, was really small.

BTW, you are not a master.

As well, Judging by your sketches (and not to be too full of myself), I feel confident in my judgement of the anatomy.

Using five layers isn't a bad thing. It's not any kind of thing, you could use a layer for every brushstroke for all I care.

THink that's all the points I wanted to make...

Oh, and stop trying to defend your work. You asked for mean crits, so I gave them. Your job now is to prove them right or wrong by trying, not to judge them worth it or not.



"you just put that brown in her legs? That's the way you shade?"

No man, it's way deeper than that. I just put the original next to mine. Now look at the differences. You learned that the shadows are blue. You never learned why apparently. Shadows are blue OUTSIDE because of the sky. Inside, they are usually different. The reason I made them darker and more saturated (read "brown") is because the room is a reddish color, and with light shining in, the shadows on her skin would be more red than blue.

[Friso]

Whatever happens just go on!

[Doomgriever]

Pixel u are so damn good with critique and paintovers. oh and Pesmerga good luck

[Pesmerga]

Yeah, Pixel's comments are kinda helpful in a way but I was hoping to get more. I don't know, something like a pro's advice. All pixel did was telling me what was wrong, how poor I am at rendering and how little I know about color. He just did a paintover without actually telling me what and how he did it. I really don't feel like painting over his paintover. You know, It doesn't seems right. Even if it's my sketch, he did all work and corrections.

Pixel is pretty good at this. But judging from his own sketchbook, I can tell he's far from being a pro. No offense. Where are the pros anyway? What good is a critique center if there are no pros to help you out lol.

I'm not being defensive by the way. I'm just responding to your comments lol. You say her neck is messed up but you don't know why. I tell you why and now I'm being defensive? That's lame. Stop being so full of yourself.

[Pixeldragoon]

I would think naturally when you hear
"Her neck area is so crowded with values I can't really tell what kind of form you were trying to put in there"

You think "Maybe I should think more about form and value and how to use them together". I think it would seem redundant to say, after the former statement, "You should try cleaning up the values a bit so the form reads more." It's pretty much saying the same thing.

Pesmerga, I wish pro's would crit my work as well, but the fact of the matter is that pros can learn just as much from some non-pro's here as you can. A few people come in the CC and ask "proffesional critiques only". So few pros will probably even critique (if any), that the person will learn far less than if everyone decided to critique him.

BTW YOu used that statement about the neck because you found it as not being defensive. I wasn't talking about that statement, I was talking about where you said things like
"lol, so what? A lot of masters have done it in the past. A pose doesn't have to be comfortable... btw, Michelango's David has a practicly impossible standing pose. But it remains convincing (unlike mine)."

Fact of the matter is the Masters knew way more than you or I, so they have justification to make uncomfortable poses, because they know how things tick.

I am going to restate my points by adding the "How to improve" part you desire.

"I tried re-enacting that pose, and it is quite uncomfortable."
"Perhaps you should try a different pose that you feel comfortable sitting in, and try that."

"and as I'm sure you are aware, there are a bunch of uncompleted looking areas all around her, as if you did this all on the same layer."
"Fill in the areas around her so as to make it look more complete."

"The skin is too glossy. Unless it's water coated, skin doesn't have those small white reflections (Specular highlights). However, metal is more likely in certain lighting conditions, to have them than skin."
"Take out some of the glossy highlights on the skin, but make the metal shinier where the light hits it."

"With the bands going across her calves; On one leg it crosses directly on the front, while on the other it crosses off center."
"On the other one, realign it so it matches."

"and the neck position makes the head look sort of disconnected."
"Try putting your head in that pose to see how the neck WOULD look, then apply it."

"The forearm holding the staff is a bit too long, the wrist is a bit too far out."
"Try making it shorter."

"Her head is also quite small. Or at least, the features on her head are very small, and the mouth is out of perspective"
"Keep the features aligned, and try to reshape the head to make it bigger."


Something tells me you have a beef with me, because doomgreiver is no better (NO OFFENSE MAN!!!) when he says "u have some anatomy issues that u might want to change really. her whole upper body is wrong angle and misplaced 0__o and the head is in disposition (this is no flaming, sorry but its true)".

Does he ever tell you how to fix it? Does he say HOW it's at a wrong angle?

"how poor I am at rendering and how little I know about color."
Yes, because that is EXACTLY what I said. Word for word. Thank you for not taking it completley out of context.

I apologize for being so full of myself by being upfrontly rude in my critisizm, and not bothering to point out any of the errors that may help you better the piece. I also apologize for not describing in depth my thoughts on the window, and other things you might do to improve it, and please do forgive me for not spending half an hour of my time I could be doing something else, by painting over your piece to maybe help you see some thing that would improve it. I'm SO SORRY.

[fooxoo]

Quote Pixel there ... he says it all

[Cookiedough]

Have to agree with Pixel here. I'm far from being a pro, but i think the head and neck are too small, the shoulders too broad and i question where the thighs connect, cos it seems like the hips are prolly too small. The boobs are quite wonky, since you messed up the perspective with the armor things there. Her calfs, feet and ankles are two different sizes. This all makes her seem like she's floating. The brick is kinda boring, you could've made this into a nice couch, seat, temple, cactus, whatever.

So, here's how you can improve: basically congrats, you have a copy of photoshop. Now put it down. Get an anatomybook and study the muscles. Get some life-drawingclasses and try to draw from life as often as you possibly can, outside class. And only after you understand what joint connects where and what are 'more common' proportions. Study values, study lightning, study, study, study. And you'll develop your own style by yourself then.

Don't force something. Just let it happen by itself. So grab that pencil and stick with the sketchpad for a bit. Photoshop is fun, but it'll be wayyyyy more fun if you understand what you're trying to achieve instead of kinda guessing, like you're doing now.

[Pesmerga]

That's not what I meant Pixel. I understood the first time. I was talking about your paintover. But thanks anyway.

Don't force something. Just let it happen by itself. So grab that pencil and stick with the sketchpad for a bit. Photoshop is fun, but it'll be wayyyyy more fun if you understand what you're trying to achieve instead of kinda guessing, like you're doing now.

I have no choice but to disagree with that (not about doing studies). You're basicly saying I should never try unless I understand perfectly what I'm doing. That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. No one in the history of mankind would be good at painting if they didn't try something they shouldn't have. The fact is you partially learn from life. But you most likely learn from your own mistakes. Ok, my rendering sucks, I should buy a tablet, I should study more. duh. I didn't find out how to render right. But I sure found out how not to render. I learned about myself and about my habbits. I learned about my misconceptions of color and anatomy. And that's something no book will ever be able to tell you. Cuz that's how you learn, by trying. Doesn't mean I don't have to study. I do some studies of course. But studying doesn't mean I don't have to try. It's quite the opposite if you ask me.

I hope I'm not the only one who believes that.

[Pixeldragoon]

"The fact is you partially learn from life. But you most likely learn from your own mistakes. Ok, my rendering sucks, I should buy a tablet, I should study more. duh. I didn't find out how to render right. But I sure found out how not to render. I learned about myself and about my habbits. I learned about my misconceptions of color and anatomy. And that's something no book will ever be able to tell you."

Without color, the world would be black and white. With almost no value to describe form, the world would be lines.

So lets start with lines. Line quality, line weight, how to draw what you see in lines. Then we move to the Forms, and how to describe them. For that we use Value, aka Shading. Then color spills into the world, and we learn about hue and saturation- take that with our previous learnings about value, and viola, we know how to create the world around us. The fact is, the masters didn't start shading when they began drawing, nor did they fiddle with colors. Even in an Atelier, hardcore, to the bone classical training, you do Line drawings of other drawings. Then you do shaded versions of other drawings (Which take quite a long time. as in, usually more than 12 hours or so. Some up to 36.)
Then after that, you do drawings of plaster casts. From life. These take much longer, and accuracy is much more debatable. Then, after a few of those, you move on to painting casts. Usually monochromatically, with some umber or sienna I believe. Then I suppose you move on to color.
During this time I've seen people working on color charts and the like.

The point is, there is a proven, effective process to learning. Thinking that you can only learn from your mistakes and improve is totally absurd. People here can suggest to you ways of rendering that will help you learn. They can show you your misconceptions and faults before you find them out yourself. Books aren't the only teachers.. Other artists are your most useful tool, but right now you are trying to fasten a bolt with a hammer, if you know what I'm saying.

[Pesmerga]

Ok. I agree with everything you just said. Did I say there was no good way to learn? I don't think so. I just said you gotta try, you gotta study, you gotta practice.

I bought a book about anatomy, a book about lineweight, gravity, I bought another one about composition and perspective. I even bought a book about acrylic painting. I know "the steps". Are you saying, like miss Cookie over here, that since color is the last step of a normal artist developpement, I shouldn't even consider trying to render? I shouldn't even try to understand color cuz it's not the appropriate time for me? I don't get it. Perhaps you're right. Maybe I should do what you say. I should concentrate on the basics. And only study color at the end of my life when I'll be too old to remember the basics. That's just not the way I see things. According to my teachers, I have a good sense of composition, I have a good anatomical and proportion understanding, I have a good sense of perspective, but my lines are weak and unconfident or imprecise. And I have poor understanding of color harmony. So the way I see it, I should focus on the steps I have trouble with. Even if my anatomy or perspective could be better, I still think I should focus on my lines AS WELL as color.

I guess I'm a failure as an artist. I'll never be good cuz I don't follow the 7 sacred steps of doom. I don't care. It just doesn't feels right to me. I just don't feel comfortable with that way of learning.

By the way, do you guys have some suggestions on how to practice that confident line thing? That's something a lot of people have told me.

[Cookiedough]

By all means: you were asking for crits and mean ones too. I only added some suggestions. You're free NOT too follow those.

Your teachers are right. You're incredibly talented. You're awesome. Forget my previous post. I'm sorry, color is always at the beginning indeed and yes smallheaded people exist in uncomfortable positions and they like it. You are so good at this. I'm so wrong thinking i'm helping you with this piece. My apologies. Please keep repeating your mistakes, since you apparently can't make any, cos your teachers and your eyes tell you your proportions and anatomy are perfectly fine.

Next time you post something, please add to your post you're not open to other peoples opinions or suggestions as a li'l warning? Oh, wait.... i tried that advisingthingie again. Never mind li'l ol' me....

[Pixeldragoon]

Okay, for one.
You said one learns more from their mistakes than from life. I said that wasn't necessarily true. We are suggesting, that since color is the last step, that you LEARN THE OTHER STEPS COMPLETELY BEFORE MOVING ON TO IT.
Second, we didn't say "WAIT 40 years, then you're good enough!" You need to stop trying to take things out of context to make us look bad, because you are only fooling yourself.
Third. According to your teachers? Let me share a quote with you, sonny.
"Those who can't do, teach." Why do you think they are teachers? Unless you are in college (and even in many non-art focused colleges, the teachers are no better than middle or highschool).

Apparently, judging by this piece, you aren't as keen on your anatomy and perspective as you think. You seem eager to accept those compliments, and as I can see from your "maybe you should brush up on your anatomy" comment, you take it straight to heart, straight to your head.
I don't see how one can have a good "sense" of perspective. It follows rules. Either you know it or you don't. Not to mention- if you DO have a good sense of perspective, why was her mouth off?

"I guess I'm a failure as an artist. I'll never be good cuz I don't follow the 7 sacred steps of doom. I don't care. It just doesn't feels right to me. I just don't feel comfortable with that way of learning."

Again, you choose to take words out of context. I don't know why I spent so long on that paint over and all the critisizm to waste it an kid like you.

[Screen_Addict88]

Rework those feet yo. The human body is probably one of the most dynamic difficult to draw shapes on the planet. Check out some figure drawing classes, have your friends pose for you, check out other refrences. I feel you are drawing mainly from exaggerated and possibly false preconceptions of a woman's body (its coo we all do it). It just takes practice to nail all those proportions. Keep up the good work!

[carotello]

Don't be afraid of taking reference photos, specially if you are not really acquainted with anatomy, which I am sorry to say, you are not.
There is no way a human being can sit in that position, and there is no human being that looks like that. If you are trying to stylize, which I realize you are, you still need to know the basics, so your stylization is believable.
You can buy twenty books on anatomy, and still not know it. Stop spending money on books and draw. Draw people on the bus, in the street, your family members. Concentrate on that, and get better. It takes years. So your teachers tell you you have a good sense of... that doesn't mean you have mastered what you refer to as the steps of doom. If you like what your teachers tell you, then be happy in school, and refrain from posting here expecting the same.
You want advice from the pros, and disregard what your fellow CA members are saying to you. This is oh so petty of you.
If you want to play with color, fine, be happy, but don't post here and expect us to ignore the fact that the basic drawing is wrong. Keep these studies to yourself, and do as many as you like. It's good to try things out, but in the end, frustrating as it may seem, you still need to learn how to draw, then you need to learn value, then you need to learn color.
You also need to relax, and take crits for what they are. They are not a personal attack on you as an artist, they are points to be taken into consideration in your endeavours as an artist.
Good luck.

[Texahol]

Stay out of photoshop for a little while. Work with real paints. Go grab some acrylics or some gauche. Take your pencil sketches to fruition with real paint.

Do still life studies from life, and take an afternoon and go to a public market, subway, the mall, a park, (a bus)... and sketch the people and things you see there.

Take reference photos, if you aren't sure exactly what something looks like. Grab a friend or family member to do a long pose for you. Buy a mirror.

A great way to get confident lines. Go find a stick that is around 2-3 feet long. sharpen the end with a pencil sharpener. Get some ink, and holding at the end (that is farthest away from your paper) of the stick, draw some things, using the stick as a pen/brush.

If you think your work is only able to be critiqued by the pros...well, then that's just sad.

As far as the piece is concerned. It is unfinished. You didn't even attempt to finish the background. Things to think about: Who is she? What is she doing? Where is she, and why is she there? Why is she dressed how she is? Also, how can you make all of that clear to the viewer without any written explanation whatsoever.

[Darktwin]

Dude, you post your work here in the critique center and when you get critiqued your still not satisfied. You should be thankful Pixel took the time to critique your work like he did. I quote what Pixel said about this piece.

[Pesmerga]

Sorry, that was my evil twin He sometimes crosses our dimension when he's hungry to eat some mcnuggets. He doesn't really like critiques...

If you don't buy that then I'm sorry lol. I feel like an ass now

I didn't paint over Pixel's paint-over. I thought that would be kinda cheap and would not help me much. So I tried to correct some parts myself. I'm also trying another technique for the face. I don't really like the way its turning out though. I know Pixel's right about the skin tone thing. But She seems so flat now:


Her right leg, breasts and left arm still look kinda odd to me

Pixel: Hey don't take it like that lol. I said I was grateful and I appreciate your critiques. I just didn't agree with some of what you said. And your quote about "teachers being no better than high school students" is pretty offensive. I would feel hurt if I was a teacher. You know, like Mentler. A lot of teachers teach because they like transmitting their knowledge to younger generations. If you think that most teachers teach because they weren't good enough to do anything else, then I feel sorry for you. But whatever man. Thanks again for your paintover and comments btw.

Tex: Thanks for your suggestions and for that "stick" trick lol. You can be sure I'm going to try that one

carotello: You guys are hilarious. First you say I should buy books to study anatomy. Now you're telling me to stop buying stupid books and that I should draw instead?! O-K.


I'll stay away from photoshop for a while. Not because you say I should. I'm only taking a small break cuz I don't have a tablet. And this stuff is taking me too much time for nothing. I'll do what Tex has suggested : go on a freemarket, draw more from life and use more references. I'll also revise my anatomy notes. But once I get my tablet, you can be sure the first thing I'm gonna do, is go back to photoshop.

your teachers are right. You're incredibly talented. You're awesome.

Why thank you that's what I've been trying to tell them

haha

This is very entertaining Thank you all for the encouragements. You're making my day.

peace.