COW - Discussion/Complaining/TrashTalk/"Where the f*** is the Poll?" Questions-Thread

[damouse]

total newbie, just found COW, thought awesome i'd love to try. now i'm a bit confused should I start working on a creature for a deadline thats already two days past, or wait for the new creature? how long does this normally take?

[Azathoth]

Fozzy the admin is a busy boy working in the Biz and he get's around to it when he has time. It is best to wait until the new one to give yourself more time to work on it. Plus you can always work on other weekly posts, or just the sketchbook posts.

[damouse]

okidoki

[TomCardin]

Arrgh! My arctic undead creature was rejected because my 3 lines of text written in 10 minutes wasn't clear enough to describe that every storm has a spirit and when a particularly strong and destructive storm rises in the arctic a wendigo will rise with it to hunt. So my description of a spirit was not done well...Fozzy made mention at the start of the arctic undead creature cow that spirits this time would be allowed...I really thought I was following that lead, given permission to make a spirit I went ahead and described a spirit...that I was describing an individual is ambiguous at best.

12 hours of art was rejected for 10 minutes of bad english.

Many other pieces CLEARLY defined individual unique characters and made it to the poll - those artists texts wasn't ambiguous at all...I think this is wrong and I feel like I was not given equal consideration among those other artists. Why did their text get overlooked and mine didn't?

I would really like an explanation of the distinction...I very much want to know what I need to do or not do to insure my time spent on art is not wasted by the few minutes I spend on description.

I didn't do cupids pet because it really stings to be rejected for something that so many other artists did and got away with it. It still stings.

I have had work rejected by bosses and colleagues many times in my career and education, but universally they have discussed their decision and offered constructive comments with which I could grow and learn. I have never had the experience of being rejected for something that other artists pieces did and were still accepted.

Well I have now and I don't like it.

[Fozzybar]

TomCardin
I already apologized if i misunderstood your concept. And i also mentioned that i didn't have the time to read all the concepts...

I founded COW and was taking care of all rounds and entries until now. I always wrote reasons why i rejected pieces and mostly if i had time i commented directly in the posting thread so artists could react. It's the first time for the last 2 rounds that i didn't do that because of lack of time and people are ranting and complaining.

I am sorry that i am not having the time for the last rounds as i had a deadline project going on and also was/am moving to a new flat.

I think it's not very fair to rant and complain, particularly after your comment in a different thread, that you learnt much in COW and after my note to all that i won't have time for this phase.

It would have been easier for me to announce a break for COW for a few weeks to get my business done and return to COW. Instead i decided to keep this activity going, just because i wanted to provide this platform for ca members and artists. As i did the summer break back then many people were upset, i thought it would be good for all not to do a break, but i think i again learnt from the community.

My thoughts were just confirmed by this again, you can't please everyone. For the future i think i will just do what i think is right to do.

[yoitisi]

Fozzybar: Just to let you know: you're doing an awesome job as it is. Just taking time every week to keep this going is something I deeply respect.

I think people are taking this challenge far too serious latetly and forget this is all about having fun. As a result, people get very frustrated when not even getting to the poll. I can understand that, I wouldn't like that either after working on it for hours, but it would only make me want to do better next time instead of blaming Fozzy for it.

With the Arctic Undead Creature challenge I saw some people complaining about how their piece was rejected for being a character while other pieces which were just as much of a character were taken to the poll. Well, the point here is: I guess they're just as guilty as you for braking the rules but they were lucky to be overlooked by Fozzybar. If you want to be absolutely sure it will be taken to the poll, don't try to find out where the mazes in the rules are. There's plenty of other ways to come up with an original creature without do this, so don't go yelling it limits the creativity. If you still want to be creative and do something the rules don't seem to cover completely, feel free to do so I'd say but remember that in the end it's Fozzy who decides.

You're in it for the fun and experience (that is to say: I am), and Fozzybar happily provides it..what more can you ask?

[TomCardin]

I didn't see any apology but I accept your above post as one. Thank you.

I posted here because it seemed more appropriate to post a complaint here due to the title of this thread.

I appreciate your time to address my concern.

[Envisor]

Im not sure if anyone has asked this before, but is it ok for us to post the finished pencils instead of a colored piece? Just wondering because I dont have PS or any other program for coloring, and no way of attaining one at the moment.

[Fozzybar]

yoitisi
thanx a lot. You have the right attitude. People forget that this is all about fun And you can learn and improve a lot as well if you have the right attitude.

TomCardin
You're right, i apologized to someone else who had the same reason for rejection, that's why i mixed it up. So i apologize to you especially

Envisor
Finished pencils are fine There is no need for colors as long as the b/w piece is finished and good enough.

[sve]

Fozzybar, I read about you moving to a new flat and being very busy because of deadlines... so best luck to you and I will wait until you are able to answer my questions... I apologize for not posting them in the proper thread before... My bad.
I read all written rules for COW and what I found were some explanations in the FAQ thread where you started from explaining what Cow was started for and how you see this activity.
I read that you would prefer a creature to be a composition, of fantasy, not existing before... just because it is more challenging and enjoyable to look... bu I didn't get impression that it is strictly what it should be... you used a word "recommendation". That's a bit vague.. is it a rule or just preferences, a guidance?

I understand that it is about fun... but it is a model of real life project in a way where artist should follow certain requirements... I wish you were as clear as possible about what exactly is very important and where an artist can have some more freedom.

The other thing you mentioned that it shouldn't be a humanoid... because it makes it an easier task.

Sketches and images with not enough efforts put into it will be rejected...

You said the professional artwork will never be rejected for its artistic value... or educational value...
I would like to ask you to explain about the requirement that creatures shouldn't be characters... because frankly speaking I don't know what it means in this context...the word character has few meanings.
Thanks in advance.
With respect.
Sveta

[Fozzybar]

I would like to ask you to explain about the requirement that creatures shouldn't be characters... because frankly speaking I don't know what it means in this context...the word character has few meanings.

Let's say we are a very old and advanced alien race. We have to make an encyclopedia of beings we met in our million year long history and journeys through the galaxies...

What would you put into an encyclopedia when you want to present the species "homo sapiens sapiens"...considering anatomy and typical vizualization??

I think it wouldn't be a photo of a dressed Michael Jackson with his name under the photo.

It would be a photo of a naked anonyme man or woman, just like we find it in the biology books in schools.

Michael Jackson is a character.
The naked anonymous human is a representative of our species in common.

I read that you would prefer a creature to be a composition, of fantasy, not existing before... just because it is more challenging and enjoyable to look... bu I didn't get impression that it is strictly what it should be... you used a word "recommendation". That's a bit vague.. is it a rule or just preferences, a guidance?

It is definitely not a rule, more a guidance for the participants. I just want to avoid people drawing existing animals without nothing new in them. Of course 99% of us are starting with known patterns and animals in our head, but the question is how far away is the result from the starting (known) animal.

You said the professional artwork will never be rejected for its artistic value... or educational value...

i don't know if i said "never", but even if it is of course meant this way as long as the entry is sticking mainly to the topic and rules. I am only more forgiving to the pros




I hope this will answer some questions now, also for masque who might have asked the same questions

[sve]

Thank you so very much for explaining this. I sure appreciated. I think for everyones good it would be useful to cut and paste your clarification to the thread where all rules are. I can do it myself, it seems tobe allrigth thing to do with mentioning your name,,, but it will be on the bottom of the thread, not where all rules are listed.

..


Michael Jackson is a character.
The naked anonymous human is a representative of our species in common...

. OK, it is like when a movie director wants to have actors with fresh unknown faces casted in a new movie... with purpose to get rid of all possible associations with other masterpieces. I can understand this... It makes an artist's job harder and the fun activity to have certain direction... but it is all right in my opinion. That's your vision.

I have to say, Fozzybar and I'm saying this believing that you were not aware of it... just because I think very good about you and trust you... well. this rule about creature not being a character was not documented in rules... it was mentioned in threads with art, but only now it is explained for me fully...It could be easily skipped by people, IMO...
So, Fozzybar when you said that it was a known fact, a rule but it was ignored by an artist (rules being bent) you were not being fair I think... it was not written in rules unfortunately. And the requirement I thought was crucial... his entry being a stylized animal as you just confirmed to me is just a recommendation, not a strict rule.
Chip is an honest man like you, I think... he wouldn't do such a thing...From what I know about him he is very serious about rules, and few times he pointed to my own careless attitude about them... So... I hope you see things through my eyes.

You don't need to rule this activity overcoming opposite opinions forcefully,,, you have much bigger force... your good sympathetic fair nature and the fact that you are well liked...I would say loved... you know... love from your subordinates and respect are much more powerful, everlasting and durable force than fear. Much more productive too. You have it, no need to use a whip or plug, you can have your way with simple fair reasoning.. I would like to ask you, please, don't be silent when it is about rules ... explain your position and people will understand because I believe in your good choice and common sense.

I'm sorry for saying this to you, but it was done with total respect and because it hurts me seeing this misunderstanding between two people I love and respect equally.

All the best
Sveta

[masque]

hey, Sve, thanks for the nice comments, but i have to disagree and say that the "new" explanation of what a character is in regards COW doesn't clarify a thing, and instead just makes things less clear.

first off, Michael Jackson would never appear in COW because he's a humanoid (barely, some might say ), but even so, as an example to clarify what constitues a "character," there isn't any new information. Foz claims Michael Jackson is a "character," but says nothing about why. he seems to assume everyone would know why he'd make that distinction, but there's no reason to assume that. so lets look at what distinguishes Michael Jackson from the anonymous human Foz leads us to believe is not a "character" in his estimate.

Michael Jackson has a proper name. in fact, most humans do, afaik, even mister "anonymous". and, in many cases, non-humanoids do also. my cat's name is Casseopeia. that doesn't make her a "character," does it? she is a bit of a flake , but if the proper name makes her (or a COW submission) a character, then say so.

Michael Jackson is famous within some cultures. does fame make one a "character"? if so, how could that be applied to a non-human? i guess any well-known non-human could be a "character," but if portrayed in COW, then the originality rule would probably apply more appropriately, so fame isn't a relevant aspect of a "character" for COW. anyone using a well-known character would be roundly chastised by the entire CA community!

is Michael Jackson a unique organism and not part of a species? well, again, some wiseacres might say so, but unfortunately, he is actually part of the human species, though a poor specimen of such imo. in any case, the question of a unique organism being a "character" is still open. does being one-of-a-kind constitute being a "character"? if so, say so.

so what other ways can Michael Jackson be considered a "character"? since the only COW "character" definition mentions no accessories, lets strip all those away (there's goes my appetite!). no clothes, no makeup, no wig, hairdo, whatever. just ol' MJ, unplugged. still a "character"? if so, why? what other qualities not already mentioned define him as a "character"?

simply saying he's a character doesn't define the nature of a character, it simply expresses Foz's opinion about Michael Jackson. i'd like to know what informs that opinion, since it seems to be the only source for the COW "character" rule.

[sve]

because Chip when 100 artists are asked to draw or paint Michael Jackson, I guarantee to you you will not see blond with blue eye looking at you from the paper. You will see certain eyes and hairdo and even certain style in his cloth... I bet more than 50% will base their picture on the same image they saw of him... the character has certain well recognizable features which will not allow you to mistake him with someone else, IMO.

[chaosrocks]

jeez I hate to weigh in...

as I see it
A.. Creature is define as not indulging in anthrpomorphic antics ie carry ing guns, wearing clothes etc.

B. A character is an individual. period ... yes your cat is a character... in that sense it is very difficult to portray one animal and have it NOT be a character
but the goal is to protray the species. not the individual

sveta and chip.... kiss and make up... foz you can too....
/me watches
giggle
chaos

[masque]

because Chip when 100 artists are asked to draw or paint Michael Jackson, I guarantee to you you will not see blond with blue eye looking at you from the paper. You will see certain eyes and hairdo and even certain style in his cloth... I bet more than 50% will base their picture on the same image they saw of him... the character has certain well recognizable features which will not allow you to mistake him with someone else, IMO.

that's because of his fame, Sve. already covered that aspect. if he wasn't famous, no one would know what he looks like except his friends and acquaintances.

hey, roxie, me and Sve got no tiff goin', we like to gnash our teeth at one another now and then, always with respect and love really! i respect her opinions very much, and always like to hear 'em, even if i don't agree with 'em, and i'm not tryin' to convince her of anything. an exchange of views is always useful if done politely and with respect.

i like hearin' your opinions, too. in this case, the question of an "individual" being a character is another one of those tricky ones. if my cat's an individual and thus a character, how about a single unnamed cat? isn't that an individual example of a species? "individual" means a discreet (but not necessarily unique) entity, so every member of a species is an individual. you can't portray a species without portraying at least one individual belonging to the species.

now if my cat's a character and an anonymous cat isn't, since they are both individuals, then it's just the name that makes her so. that's part of what i'd like to have clarified.

also, if the goal is to portray a species, then all submissions that are singular entities, not part of a species (and there have been many in many COWs, not just Arctic Undead), shouldn't pass muster, if the rules are to be applied consistently and without bias. that's the main concern i have, that rules which are ill-defined are not being applied consistently.

[Fozzybar]

masque
You forgot the story part.

If an alien race writes down the life story of Michael Jackson, what his preferences are, what he does to earn money, how and why he dresses etc etc etc it wouldn't be representative for the species of humans in any form - not at all.

So if you make an entry, design a creature as a representative of a species. If you for whatever reason can't keep your hands off characters, don't tell a story about their individual life or personality, call your cat "Casseopeia" and write only about common facts about the species cat...you might spice it up with small funny personal details for gods sake, but if the concept(art) leaves the species track too much i will intervene...

I hope really that you finally understand what this is about...

sve
Updating the FAQ might be a good idea...still i will do that when i have really time to care about all that and maybe change more than 1 rule update...and in my eyes it is still not so important, just because 2-3 people didn't get it in the last 2 weeks of 2 years of COW now...ask all the winners and participants of the last years how they managed to understand all the rules and make awesome artwork, learnt a lot with entering and participating in the community...COW didn't change, i didn't change...so it's all working and fine as before

[ATAnderson]

I have played with the idea of seriously getting involved here, but this is way cooler I thought.



Adam.

[masque]

masque
You forgot the story part.

If an alien race writes down the life story of Michael Jackson, what his preferences are, what he does to earn money, how and why he dresses etc etc etc it wouldn't be representative for the species of humans in any form - not at all.

So if you make an entry, design a creature as a representative of a species. If you for whatever reason can't keep your hands off characters, don't tell a story about their individual life or personality, call your cat "Casseopeia" and write only about common facts about the species cat...you might spice it up with small funny personal details for gods sake, but if the concept(art) leaves the species track too much i will intervene...

I hope really that you finally understand what this is about...

finally, this is a fairly objective criterion that can be used to evaluate what you feel makes a "character" in regards COW. thanks for making it somewhat clearer.

looking back over the past few COWs, i've found a number of submissions taken to poll where the story focuses on an individual, or the story is about a creature that is inherently individual, not part of a species at all (about as far from the "species track" as possible):

COW76, Dungeon Cleaner: edujante, cotletan
COW77, Gluemaker: jfwalls, Carnifex
COW78, Heart Harvester: TomCardin, Akeley, Vorace, BlkCelebration
COW79, Lava Swimmer: njoo, ikuru, Ham-e, TomCardin
COW80, Winged Healer: hurricane, Cloister, Delmar, Spitch, xgabo, Einen, njoo
COW81, Living Trap: none! cool!
COW82, Arctic Undead: Splitch, VegasMike, prepsage, Tommoy, Kredepops, edujante, silver-sanity, MarkHerschberger, BlkCelebration, Staniero, SprayNation.
COW83, Cupid'sPet: character rule waived.

when so many submissions are taken to poll that fit this aspect of a "character," and in the absence of anything that says this is part of the "character" definition, how could anyone know (as you seem to think i did in COW82) that the way the story is told is part of the "rule?"

also, there have been a number of submissions that went to poll with no stories at all -- that tends to make it seem like the story is less important than you now are saying.

when rules aren't clear, only examples can be used to make a decision, and i found many examples in only a small number of the 84 COWs that do what the Randolph story does.

but it's been clarified now. hopefully this aspect of the character rule will be applied consistently.

addendum: i assume that if my story had been:
"This is a reinder that got turned into a zombie and now eats Santa's elves."
that it would not have violated the character rule. i did "spice it up with small funny personal details" (relationship to Rudolph, POV of the story) but i guess it was just too funny or something.

[sve]

Thank you for listening and answering and analyzing ... I don't care too as far as good art will be created, but people need to have all information that is there to prepare a proper picture . I wouldn't disregard ambitious nature of some artists too... it is a very strong motivation to grow and produce better art. I know you will shrug your furry shoulders on this motivation... but it is a fact...people progress in their skills from all kind of reasons, better to use this to attract more participants to the activity .
Why are you not wearing beautiful blue eye buttons I chose for you with such love and considering the hue of your fur to match... Ohhh, you didn't like them ...it's spring, time for grooming .

[Fozzybar]

addendum: i assume that if my story had been:
"This is a reinder that got turned into a zombie and now eats Santa's elves."
that it would not have violated the character rule. i did "spice it up with small funny personal details" (relationship to Rudolph, POV of the story) but i guess it was just too funny or something.

No, i still wouldn't take it to the poll, since your concept would base on an individuals fate and not describing a species.



sve
The eyes are not the problem, the eyebrows are

[sve]

well it is a proper thread for complains and crits.. so I'm not happy with color of your eyes... Those are not my buttons...would it kill you to change the color?

[masque]

No, i still wouldn't take it to the poll, since your concept would base on an individuals fate and not describing a species.

helpful. this clarifies the rules even more, prohibiting submissions which are not members of a species.

[bluefooted]

Hey Fozzy!

I just wanted to say thanks so much for taking the time to run COW! I've really enjoyed participating and the sense of community here is the best part of the forums. A lot of that is due to you being there every week (with few exceptions ) to put up the polls and topics and yell at us.

So, cheers!

[ATAnderson]

I agree with bluefooted, plus if Foz turned around and said he'd had enough, COW just wouldn't happen, or at least not in the way it does just now. I really stuggle with creature design and this is a great way for me to improve. As Foz makes clear, he doesn't have a huge amount of time, but still has to spend a lot of it justifying things, it is after all just an activity.

Thanks man, Adam.

[Fozzybar]

bluefooted, ATAnderson
thanks people...i just want to have a nice platform for creature lovers like you and me, nothing else...fun and creativity within given guidelines, what could a conceptartist want more?

masque
seems that the fog of confusion is vanishing

[PixelVillain]

Can anyone help me out with posting an image in Chow?
The FAQ link isn't working and when I just posted a link to my image it got lost in the chat.

Thanks guys

[Sig.NAL]

What's a wip? I've been scanning a couple of threads for an explanation and having trouble finding it so if anyone could just quickly explain that would be Super.

[infinitemonkey]

WIP = Work In Progress

There are a few related terms I've encountered, mostly in the publishing world but who knows they may apply to illustration work too:

WIS = Work In Submission (you've sent it to your editor or publisher, awaiting feedback)
WIR = Work In Revision (you've received feedback and are modifying)

[infinitemonkey]

I have about 3 weeks off between semesters, which makes this the first time since I joined I actually have the time and inclination to participate in COW. I really wanted to give Silver Tooth a shot but had to prepare for finals instead. I came to Korea figuring I'd have all this free time after classes, but it didn't turn out that way. So where's the poll??? I want to get started on the next one!