Discussion: What's really more important to you?

[one2hit]

What's more important when creating a piece; color or value? I've just started painting, and my teacher...god. She keeps telling me, and the rest of the class...lecturing about how important color is, and how important it is to see the right colors. It's about all she ever talks about. She pushes the idea so far, that if you can see the right colors, you can paint properly. Now...I have red-green colorblindness...and I can't see a lot of colors, it's very difficult for me to see the difference between certain colors of the same value. Some people have argued that if you place value of higher importance, that you can do what ever you'd like with color after. This feels better to me, since pencil renderings are done only in value, why should painting be any different?

I hear people like Ron Lemen talking about when he paints, his mind is thinking only of color. I guess I'm kind of wonder what you guys out there think about more, and what's over all of more importance. The teacher is driving me nuts. I've told her I can't see color well, but I really want to give painting my best shot regardless...she doesn't seem like she's much help. I've seen her paintings too. They're alright, but not nearly as good as she says they are lol...this is her "Now, if you learn how to see the mixtures in the color, you can make any color you want, if you get the PERFECT color of the sky, it will look like a sky. Everyone go see my paintings in the art gallery for an example of what I'm talking about"
D'oh!

anyway, discuss! I want to hear opinions from seasoned painters and anyone who's used any kind of colored media.

[Wolf]

Well, I'm not seasoned at painting, but I think that both are incrediably important in their own aspects, and neither is more important then the other. You can have a painting that concentrates on just one and that painting could be a masterpeice, but I think that as artists we need to understand that both fields contribute to the art world. As for your art class, give color a shot, but if it doesn't work out, try not to be discouraged. Your art teacher should eventually wake up and realize that you cannot work very well with color, despite your best efforts.

Hope that helped. ^^

[Denart]

value creates form, so value over color!
Check this out



Plus, the importance of values are observed through grisailles. Or under-paintings with a monochromatic color where you basically focus on values and form. THEN, the colors are glazed over. In this case, the colors act as a "decorator"

But in many cases, the color can make or break a painting and take center stage. Especially evident in modernism art

[emily g]

If your picture doesn't have the right colors, it's ok.
If your picture doesn't have the right values, the whole thing will fall apart.

Here's some things Coro posted in the Helpful Critiques forum regarding flesh tones:
"ok, think about it like this... its not about color at all, its about value. if the values read, it can be whatever color you want. skin is all about the right values and edges and transitions..if those are correct you could literally use pink and green, and it would look perfect"
And "what im trying to say is dont think so much about what color skin is, more pay attention to what values you are suing, and if you can make em work, go apeshit with color, as long as the values stay the same, you'd have to try to fuck it up. good luck, and i hope my ramblings make some sense...-c36"

emily

[Elwell]

The theory she's teaching is that, since hue, value, and chroma are all dimensions of color, if you get the "color" right by definition you get all three right. Setting aside the usual arguments that can be made against this way of teaching (and there are many), the simple fact is that since you are R/G colorblind you will never be able to do this. If she can't be made to understand this and modify her approach when dealing with you then you need to find a different teacher.

[one2hit]

: ( (*@#dammit...this is so discouraging. Every time I paint something, someone approaches me and talks to me about how my colors are different...then I explain that I have R/G colorblindess, and they walk away. I wish other people could see what I see, or I could see what they see, so that I would know the differences. How the hell am I supposed to paint if I can NEVER get hue, value and chroma right? There are many people who put value over hue, and have great paintings...gah! Depressed!

[Elwell]

How the hell am I supposed to paint if I can NEVER get hue, value and chroma right? There are many people who put value over hue, and have great paintings...

Exactly. You can do great paintings, but the color in them is never going to look "right" to people who have full color vision. Therefore, don't worry about getting colors "right".

On a practical note, a very limited palette will probably help you. See what you can do with just ultramarine blue and burnt sienna, plus white, for example.

[emily g]

Well, you have a problem here and need to find a way to work around it.
Lots of people can be successful artists without having to deal with color.
Off the top of my head: 3D modelers, comic pencilers & inkers, animators, vehicle designers. These people can often get away without ever having to touch color or only using limited color.
I remember learning about this guy in my history of illustration class who was colorblind. He only did black and white work, then added a splash of red to finish it up (like on a scarf or something).
I don't know if you should completely give up on color--there may be work arounds. You can do monochromatic work, use a warm color palette, use a cool color palette, avoid using red and green in the same pic . . .
I agree with Elwell, though. If you teacher cannot be made to understand your problem, you will have trouble progressing in her class and will need to find another teacher.

Hope it works out and best of luck to you
emily

[Denart]

Exactly. You can do great paintings, but the color in them is never going to look "right" to people who have full color vision. Therefore, don't worry about getting colors "right".

yeap

Remember, color doesn't REALLY need to look 'right' to be a good painting.
You can go insane with colors (and create some interesting effects like a depiction of a mood) and if your values are correct and balanced, you got a beautiful painting

limited palette works as well!


Just earth colors and a touch of blue

[sula_nebouxi]

Value without a doubt. A painting will look 'right' if you get the values correct but will look like utter crap if you get the 'colors' right and the values wrong. Value is the backbone of color. If your teacher doesn't understand that then she seriously needs to go back to school(and get a reality check while she's at it). I remember Ron had a tutorial about color theory. He said that color=value. If you understand the value relationships, then you can get a handle on color.

Oh yeah, one2hit, I heard about these special glasses called ColorMax glasses a while back on the news. Supposedly they corrected colorblindness slightly and allowed people to differentiate red and green. It doesn't correct it, all it does is lighten reds and darken greens. Too bad the company went outta business. I haven't heard much from them for years...maybe there are a few pairs floating around ebay...

That's my take on it...

[Elwell]

Just earth colors and a touch of blue

Probably not even that. I don't know about Nerdrum's palette specifically, but those "blues" are probably just cool black+white grays.

[one2hit]

@ Denart: What the shit?? did you paint that? that's phenominal! if you didn't paint it...well...thanks for posting it then.

@ Sula: Dude, I went to an opthemologist (sp?) and checked out some contacts just like that. I put them in and he's like "can you see red now?" "well...yeah, everything is red now" "ahh, good" hehe, they don't help to see how color composition can help you, but you can see red stronger. It would be pointless to have, because I'd have to constantly put it in and take it out, or just wear one in one eye, which would also throw me off. Did Fred post that tutorial here on the site? I'd like to read that.

ok ppl...back on topic for anyone else who replies. Color or value or both? how does your mind work when you're laying down paint (real or digital).

[Denart]

NO NO NO!

that is painted by the great Odd Nerdrum!

You should concentrate on values first. Shape, form, mass.
Then work on colors.

That's basically how I paint. I lay a monochromatic grisaille, then glaze and paint the colors over it

Probably not even that. I don't know about Nerdrum's palette specifically, but those "blues" are probably just cool black+white grays

yeah it is some cool color. Tricky hehe

[sula_nebouxi]

one2hit, that color theory tutorial is one of the sticky threads over in the life drawing/techniques section. Although there is one pic I couldn't seem to find, I'll include it here, it includes that color=value quote.

[Daunting]

Most people learn and understand values way before they even think about deep color theory. I've been strictly graphite for all of my 16 years of life (well as long as I could draw) and since I have a good grasps of value I just add a little color on it and it comes out nice. The colors could be crazy and people will still love it but the day you show values out of whack your considered an amateur. So I'd say stick with monochrome and when you start really thinking about color use completely different colors that you can distinguish the colors. Because In my oppinion much of the best painting and artwork could have been done with only one color and still would look almost as good as the original.

[DragonGX]

Although there is one pic I couldn't seem to find, I'll include it here, it includes that color=value quote.

Does that not make any sense to anyone else?

[one2hit]

He's saying that he could not find the picture that has a quote at it in the bottom (the quote contains the phrase "color = value") in the color theory thread posted by Fredflickstone. Since he couldn't find it in that thread, he posted the image here just to make sure that we could see it, and understand what he's blabbing about, lol. Not sure where he found it though. Thanks much Sula.

back on topic maybe?

[sula_nebouxi]

lol thanks one2hit, maybe next time I won't post when I'm half-asleep...

[bigmonkeynuts]

Well your teacher is right in the sense that if you do see the right colours your painting will work. If you can capture that dark greenish pink on the shadow side of a face and put it in your picture, and it works, it's because the value of that colour is correct in it's relation to the other values in your picture... and not necessarily because you have green and pink in there. I'm not sure if she's placing the importance on the value within the colours (you tell me, since I'm only going by what you've said). I can relate to you if this is confusing, since in one of my early painting classes a few years back my teacher constantly talked of warm and cools, demonstrating warms in the light and cools in the shadows, and talking about bits of warm in the shadows and bits of cool in the light... being an inexperienced artist, it was enough to make my head spin. Many of us in the class started to go mental and use every colour on the wheel when painting a face, because he talked of warms and cools so much. What he failed to enforce and remind us about was how value relates to colour.

Value shows form. Form is the most important thing. Unless you're meaning to make your picture completely flat for stylistic reasons, showing form should be necessary. Value is what shows form. Light in the light side, dark in the dark side. The lightest part of the dark side is not lighter than the darkest part of the dark side. It doesn't matter what colours you're using, if the values are not showing proper form, your picture will be a mess. Value is the most important.

But all of this talk of value doesn't mean colours aren't important. Even in that Nerdrum picture with a limitted palette there is a thousand things going on with the colours. Colours add another dimension of life to a picture.

[bwkeough]

color=value because every color also has a base value. You can have a red and a green that are the same value but it'll take some mixing away from pure pigment to find it. If you compare the color wheel that sula posted, Ron is telling us that green is intrinsicly lighter than red.

Don't worry about being color blind, it is much more important to have good values. Having "accurate colors" only matters if your primary purpose in painting is replicating nature perfectly. But natural colors change as the color of the light illuminating them changes, it's the relationships between them that matter the most and the strongest part of color relationship is VALUE.

Read everything Ron writes about color he's the master here.

[one2hit]

This one is slightly OT, but I felt like I should ask it. What do you guys think about mixing black to get shades, or darker values...do you use black or do you create a neutral grey and use that? My teacher keeps saying it's some kind of "no-no" to mix blacks with color...and I'm sort of confused about that, because I can't see any other way to get it down. I feel like I should be in an art school for this right now, because I don't really feel like I'm being taught, or given any attention of proper feed back with the things I produce.

[sula_nebouxi]

I try not to use blacks too much. Personally I think it has too much tinting power. Even a little bit of black can make something really dark(an probably end up screwing up the color). I find that using the complementary colors works a little better. I add the complement little by little till I get the shade I want. It works pretty well.

[Faxtar]

One2hit-- Hey I'm colorblind too, I have known about it all through out my educational career, here is what I have learned... #1. Dont tell your teacher. Its been my experince that most teachers, even in college, have no idea what colorblindness is or how to help you with it. #2 Dont tell other kids. About 100% of the time kids will say "really! What color is my shirt?" And I will correctly say yellow, and they say "Your not colorblind, stop kidding around." #3 Download this program WhatColor? It should help you with your digital work. And remember even if you have trouble with hue you can still play around with value, and color temperture, and saturation (intensity). So have fun.

[one2hit]

One2hit-- Hey I'm colorblind too, I have known about it all through out my educational career, here is what I have learned... #1. Dont tell your teacher. Its been my experince that most teachers, even in college, have no idea what colorblindness is or how to help you with it. #2 Dont tell other kids. About 100% of the time kids will say "really! What color is my shirt?" And I will correctly say yellow, and they say "Your not colorblind, stop kidding around." #3 Download this program WhatColor? It should help you with your digital work. And remember even if you have trouble with hue you can still play around with value, and color temperture, and saturation (intensity). So have fun.

Yeah, this guy had a riot when I told him I couldn't tell the difference between this orange color, and this green one...The fact is, they were the same value and looked 100% the exact same color to me. He was rolling around like he couldn't believe...what a dork. Anyways...I really need some help here...this teacher is driving me bananas...she's not helping me ever since I told her (blah blah) and I'm having a beyond difficult time mixing colors...I threw a green into my skin tone today, when I ment to use red...guy had barf on his cheeks.

I've read all of Fred's color tutorials about 4 or 5 times, wait....that's a lie, it's more like 3. They are very informative, Are there any other sites where I can find information about setting up the pallet, and especially mixing color? I swear...I can not mix, I get dirt every time. I would blame this on my eye-sight, but I think this is just a matter of being "green". I don't have a bad attitude about this, it's just frustrating...I would really like to enjoy painting.

Thanks so much people :

[emily g]

About mixing with black--it's not always a good idea because black is so dark and can be hard to control. Mixing a gray and using that is a lot easier IMO. You can mix the right value in gray, then add it to your color. I find this is better than just mixing and thinking, "Dang, that's not dark enough" or "Crap, now I made it too dark."
Also, your teacher may be discouraging using black because a lot of new painters make the mistake of mixing all their shadows using black rather than looking at what the color really is (for example, a blueish shadow).
I have a question. Are you laying out your colors on your palette in the same order every time? This can often stop problems with accidentally using the wrong color. If you know that your red is always third from the left, it will probably help decrease these kinds of mistakes.

emily

[bwkeough]

emily g beat me to the punch about palette lay-out, defintely keep that highly structured the same way each time. If you use a hard palette, you might even want to put labels on it until the color order is habitual.

Ron has a really good lesson about that too, I think it might be in the life painting thread. I'll take a look when I get home from work and link it up here.

Something that works for me is to do a full-value pencil drawing and then after scanning it in, figure out what I want to use for a color scheme with transparents before going to opaque. I construct the whole image with color as a secondary step to reinforce the forms and composition I built with value. I don't do this when working from life, cause all the values and colors are there for you to choose from, but I find it very helpful when making an illustration from imagination.

[Sok N. Wett]

Cool Nate, thanks for making this thread, I've read through the post to see if it can help me as well, as you know I'm also R/G colorblind. This information will help me benefit from not staying away from coloring. Now I can stop buying purple shirt mistaking it for navy blue.

[saraesc]

hey i wouldnt worry to much about being colorblind.

there was this girl in my class who didnt know she had a serious vision problem until she was already in her teens, subsequently she never developed the part of her brain where she could recongnize facial features - and her paintings of people were amazing because of it. they werent accurate but when you looked at them you could see how she viewed the world.

i still think you should try your best to learn the full range of techniques in painting. but in the end it wont be the academic way of painting that everyone learned that makes you stand out. it will be that which makes you different. the parts of painting that you find interesting and focus on whether it be value or color, the kinds of paintings where you express your particular view, your unique style.

[one2hit]

hey that's cool...hrmm I'll post my painting here at the end of the quarter when I finish, so check back if this thread disappears and then re-appears next month.

[Beer Baron]

one2hit: I was thinking about your problem at lunch today and this is all I could come up with: Have you thought about sitting down with someone who isn't color blind and making color charts for red and green? You could write a number under each value and have that number correspond to the color's makeup; i.e. #3 = part crimson red and canary yellow and so on. Take this color chart with you everywhere you go and try to use it to identify things that you know are red and green; trees, grass, apples, etc. You could then, perhaps over time, be able to identify your greens and reds better.
You could also scan the color chart and use it to find the Hue, Saturation, Brightness equivalent for your digital work.

I am still very much an amateur, so I would run this idea by some pros before you embark on anything. I'd hate to steer you wrong.

Edit: Forget the story about my color blind dad. I called to confirm it and it was a long standing joke that I was never let in on. My mistake.