So what is the fate of ConceptArt.org (and art forums in general)?

[Velocity Kendall]

So.... JM responded....

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...72#post3664272

[skullsquid]

Not really a response yet.

[dierat]

I like the idea of a subscription just because the whole downloads issue is shady. Even before these accusations surfaced, there was tension surrounding the push for downloads that occurred every now and then to finance 4.0. If I could pay a little each month and know that my money was going into keep the site up and fund new features and improvements, I'd be happy. I'd rather that than be prodded for donations every couple of months. Not that I think a subscription model will ever be implemented here; I just don't think it's a bad idea in general.

He is handling this better than the last debacle though. No bans, censorship, lockdowns or blackouts. He's been smart enough to keep his mouth shut rather than jamming his shot foot in it.

Definitely. The fact that we can actually sit here and talk about it.. it's actually kind of eerie to be honest.

So.... JM responded....

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...72#post3664272

He updated to say there will be an update. Better than silence anyway.

[Velocity Kendall]

I tend to agree Dierat.

[Appylon]

As someone very familiar with a variety of art groups on Facebook dedicated to showing off WIP and finals for critiques, I can say that the atmosphere is completely different. It is a showroom... very clinical. There is very little space for personal responses. It simply isn't a format used for large dialogues. It works better for quick, light responses without much weight or context ("I like it!"). It's a social media outlet, nothing much deeper. Even the image quality is balls. Imagine: getting every review from a pixelated mis-colored image, the injustice... It's a showroom with dirty windows.

The other downside to it is that it really truly becomes a 1 horse race. People become too intimidated with the loss of anonymity and slowly begin to drift further and further back. It's a surprisingly cold "king of the mountain" race turned popularity contest - as are all social media based venues. (Hopefully I don't sound bitter CA ,or forums in general, give you that private space to improve. Facebook gives one wall for everyone to draw on, forums give infinite real estate.

I will admit that the forum system is clunky to use and needs to be innovated. But even if that takes years to do, there will always be a dedicated niche more interested in old school text adventures. My hope is that CA can withstand recent events and weather on.

[Jason Manley]

The new site is state of the art. We are moving in the right direction. Vbull is definitely clunky, but we will jazz the place up so there is transition.

[Raoul Duke]

Jason Manley(if that is your real name)-The bureaucratic mess tied your shoelaces together. While you self audit, see what you can do about simplifying whatever you need to function as an honest business. State of the art bells and whistles don't compare to the ability to function honestly.

[Jason Manley]

I completely agree. I have been cutting out those who have no integrity, who do not demonstrate honesty, for many months and at one point I thought I had gotten them all out, and posted on my fb ice cubes today is a good day.

[Incinerated]

He is handling this better than the last debacle though. No bans, censorship, lockdowns or blackouts. He's been smart enough to keep his mouth shut rather than jamming his shot foot in it. So if he could just pass on the leadership to somebody responsible and honest enough within the community to run things. That would make things square.

If it came to a vote who should or could run this place I'd say Elwell. Now I don't know that he'd wish to do that, but he is our "Daddy".

I hate how the mob tendencies of the internet are so present in this

[Lightship69]

If paying to support the site is an issue, and I dont know if it is or isn't then maybe selective advertising is the answer, just approach manufacturers with art products to sell Like WACOM or even just regular art suplliers, I always need more board, paint and pencils etc.
I say selective because I couldnt stand it if there were adverts for dating sites, McDonalds or pizza hut, as long as its relevant and useful I wouldnt have a problem.

That last idea about killing innactive accounts has some legs and is worth exploring all this server space needs to be paid for somehow so if people dont post anymore then yes clean it out and free the space. The member count however could effect who you can pull in to advertise here and help pay for it all.

I think the paid portfolio space Idea has some legs too, if professionals want to put a set of High quality images and contact details or maybe agents or something then that could be worth exploring too.

Just some ideas for you to kick about for the sake of discussion.

[LordLouis]

The way I know (and have used) forum subscription is not that you have to pay to read or write, but it is more of a little incentive to donate. You get stuff like slightly larger avatar size, colored names... nothing of substance, it is just to get some more people to donate money. Often people don't even make use of the subscription benefit. So from that perspective, I don't think that subscriptions equal guilting people to give money. I personally find donation-requests far more annoying.

[Ian Barker]

The way I know (and have used) forum subscription is not that you have to pay to read or write, but it is more of a little incentive to donate. You get stuff like slightly larger avatar size, colored names... nothing of substance, it is just to get some more people to donate money. Often people don't even make use of the subscription benefit. So from that perspective, I don't think that subscriptions equal guilting people to give money. I personally find donation-requests far more annoying.

I'm fine with that kind of subscription. Stuff like a larger PM allowance, images in your sig and so on.

Subscription for any kind of forum use would really suck though, I can't imagine that working out.

[CLANLESS]

When I thought of subscription, I thought of something along the line of paying to read and write. That would suck for the younger potential members. I don't see a thirteen year old beginner easily cashing out ten bucks for a membership. But at the same time it may bring in more dedicated members (thus improving the quality of the population) and prevent thousands of spam accounts from hogging space.

What is most important is that whoever has tabs on the treasury has integrity. The reputation has been charred too many times. The vehicle of funding isn't as important as, "can we trust that the money is actually going to where we think they're going". Nonetheless, I don't see anyone buying downloads anytime soon so let's keep brainstorming.

[Dumb Naked King]

The way I know (and have used) forum subscription is not that you have to pay to read or write, but it is more of a little incentive to donate. You get stuff like slightly larger avatar size, colored names... nothing of substance, it is just to get some more people to donate money. Often people don't even make use of the subscription benefit. So from that perspective, I don't think that subscriptions equal guilting people to give money. I personally find donation-requests far more annoying.

(Don't mind me, I'm just a noob...)
This seems to have been a successful strategy for a lot of online communities. People like being able to customize their own profiles, signatures, font colors, have things like banners, bigger pictures etc... it always surprises me how much people are ready to pay just to be able to make a certain impression (and at the same time when you think about it it's not surprising at all considering how much the average person spends on things like clothes and accessories in real life - it's essentially the same thing). I say milk it if you can, everybody else is doing it anyway.

[Ian Barker]

I'm curious where CA has gotten its funding over the last year. I don't recall any new videos coming out.

[Januz]

I don't understand the issue with having a store in the site. Video tutorials could be huge, it just needs to be easy to find and buy (no DRM or streaming, just a video file). Files could be tied to your account and let you re-download 10-20 times, in case you loose it. There could also be small premium classes using Livestream or G+ Hangouts.

I'm not sure about a suscription model, specially if it's the type that gives some users more visible features than others. It could generate a schism between the "premiums" and the not-premiums and hurt the community in the end. Also, which features would be premium and which not? I can see this getting out of hand quickly. I don't want to see CA becoming DA where you have to pay to browse old stuff.

A good option would be pro porfiolios integrated with the site. Where you could show what events you've won, how many times you've been thanked, your SB, etc.
Let people make some design choices and point their own domains to it (and of course, no ads ). It could be a pretty big investment tho (in developer time).

Nonetheless, I don't see anyone buying downloads anytime soon so let's keep brainstorming.

Why not? It works for Ctrl-Paint and Gnomon.

[Ian Barker]

The problem with selling downloads is that so many pro artists are doing livestreams for free these days. I can watch amazing artists draw for free now, so any download would have to be very in depth and focused to make it worth it. Cryptcrawler's was such a vid imo.

[dierat]

Selling tutorials etc is fine a supplemental source of income. The problem here was that every now and then there would a kind of drive or push to get users to buy downloads to fund the running of the site and the building of new features. Members expressed dissatisfaction and that they felt they being guilted (some even said black-mailed, because the threat of the site going down forever was thrown around a bit) into buying stuff. Now there is suspicion around the business practices associated with the downloads altogether and whether the artists who provided that content are being compensated for their time (which is a very sensitive issue in this industry and on this site in particular).

Think of the subscription model more as a regular donation. I can agree to give a website $X at regular intervals (say once a year) and in return I get a couple of cosmetic perks, like the ability to customize my gallery or no ads at the top of the page or something. Deviantart chose to make some features subscription-only (like Way Back browsing and the Critique feature) that we may disagree with, but that does not mean every site that implements the subscription model would need to follow suit.

[Candra H]

Top of the page people. CA has a sponsor now - Corel.

I'm also a big supporter of the donate button idea. I'm skint most of the time but for a site like this, I'd happily give what I could. Subscriptions are a nice idea but they can develop into a elitism thing, where subscribers get the goodies and ordinary members get left out in the cold, so I don't think that's as good an idea as a straight forward donate option.

Also nice to see responses from Jason. I read the entire Brad Rigney thread but I'm a bit wary of posting in it in case some crazy troll tries to attack me via pm. Yikes!

P.S. Mr Lightship, right back at ya!

[Nemome]

I personally have to admit that I don't like the idea of subscriptions.
This site always has been COMPLETELY free and in my opinion it should stay like that.

When I'm looking at this site, then I want to give every member the same feeling when being here. With a subscription we would split the community into two, even if the given goodies aren't that worth mentioning.

But I'm up for a donate button and I think that it would actually work out.
It would be wrong to say that we would get millions of dollars with that, but it would at least support the financial situtation.
So why not?
It just needs to be a small icon somewhere so it doesn't disturb the people who don't want to spend / or don't have the money to support the site.

[dierat]

People have been suggesting a donate button for years. No idea why that's never been implemented.

[Zenith_]

Hey Nemome, just wondering if you have any idea when the new site is going to be implemented or if that's all under wraps for now?
I can understand it'll prob take a bit longer given recent events and such.

Also, the Corel sponsorship thing. Is that for the site or just the London workshop?

[Candra H]

People have been suggesting a donate button for years. No idea why that's never been implemented.

I think some people have a bad idea about them, like a donate button would make the site look like a charity or something. Not really sure why because CA isn't a charity and a donate button wouldnt make it one either. It would just give interested parties the chance to give back a little financially.

And yeah, down at the bottom of the main page would be fine. I find myself down there a lot after heavy handed scrolling, lol, so I'd notice a button if it was there.

[Candra H]

Zenith, looks like the forum as well as the workshop - Corel Sponsorship Thread

[Nemome]

Hey Nemome, just wondering if you have any idea when the new site is going to be implemented or if that's all under wraps for now?
I can understand it'll prob take a bit longer given recent events and such.

Also, the Corel sponsorship thing. Is that for the site or just the London workshop?

I don't know what you understand with "the new" site but there is going to be a general site update in a few weeks.
But the forum is getting worked on daily, seperated.
Some of the ideas suggested in "Improving CA.org" are already added and the others are on the way.

The Corel sponsorship is for the whole site.

[Zenith_]

Thanks Candra and Nemome.

I just saw Jason post a couple times about a "new" site and it being state of the art. (I'm all excited)

Anyway I'm glad the forum is getting the love it deserves.

PS: Just wanted to say thanks to Nemome for all the work you've been doing around the forums lately and keeping us all up to date on stuff.
Mucho gracias!

[Appylon]

1st idea: This might be another one of my many stupid ideas, but maybe consider Kickstarter: Crowdfunding.

Why? If the administrators can come up with a variety of technical improvements to bring to the site - KS might be a fantastic direction. The goal being to keep advertisements off, and the art at the front. Keep CA independent and personal. Perhaps money can be used to purchase tutorials or tools or pay for workshops. I think it has merit because the traffic here is pretty strong, and you need that for Kickstarter to work. Perhaps getting funded could boost the site into a new and improved era. The downside is the current events happening, it could be taken in bad taste. The upside is that no press is bad press, and as devious as it sounds to take advantage, things like this just bring more people to the table.

My own experience with Kickstarter is rough though so take that with a grain of salt on the wound. Personally, even though I literally just suggested it, I would not recommend this strategy. At least not now.

2nd idea: The concept of gamification is becoming widespread through websites nowadays. To an extent CA has its own version - though compared to the sophistication of other sites it is behind the times. What is gamification? Well, it's a little hard to actually describe and the depth of it changes from site to site... Basically its about making the whole experience into more of a... well, a game. Achievements, merit badges, titles, awards. It just works for people. It's that grind mentality.

Why? It's about driving traffic, rewarding good positive behavior, encourages new users to post, and it can be fun. Downside is that it can be handled wrongly and turn the whole site into a theatrical joke.

Ex. Reward experience based on posts. As it becomes more popular and the person is thanked, give bonus experience. Level up through the gladiator classes. Get some of the great artists on the site to donate to gladiator avatars.

Ex2. Unlock achievements for certain rites of passage. 1000th post "Up the Mountain", Thanked 500 times "Mother Teresa".

Ex3. For providing an incredibly popular tutorial the user could start receiving merit awards that can be found on their profile page.

I know it sounds goofy, but it is also addicting. I also realize some of this is already done in some way or another here on CA, but it can be snazzed up. Coming from a bit of a game design background - presentation is everything. Any way, I'm just spit-balling.

-Scott

[Black Spot]

Well, I think a few of more of these http://conceptart.org/forums/art-dep...next-week.html would be great and instead of free, people pay.

[Raoul Duke]

Well, I think a few of more of these http://conceptart.org/forums/art-dep...next-week.html would be great and instead of free, people pay.

I gotta respond to you the same way I did to Izi when she suggested it.

GROAN BUTTON! GROAN BUTTON! You are missing the point of this site. That idea is for suckers.

[LordLouis]

When I'm looking at this site, then I want to give every member the same feeling when being here. With a subscription we would split the community into two, even if the given goodies aren't that worth mentioning.

Your claim is based on....?

When I was member of this huge forum with subscriptions, I felt compelled to subscribe to support the board, and not to be part of a club. Note that even deviantart, which has massive advantages of subscribers, doesn't really have that "split". Sure there are always people moaning and groaning about anything- hardly a reason to doubt the system.

People could put a "I donated!" into their signature, thereby pushing other donators to do the same because they feel that they should be recognized too;
they could start all complaints with "I just want to say that I have donated lots of money and am willing to support you, BUT..."

Not that I care massively about which system would in the end find its way into CA, but I can't follow these sweeping statements either. I think in the end the decision would come down to technical factors. With subscriptions, CA would automatically be able to show gratitude. With donations, it's just a "thank you" post. I think it's worth thinking about that side as well.