The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[sone_one]

@ tim... i admit my experience in this field is quite limited and i just tried to pull of an analogy. i appreciate your input about that issue, but its quite off it comes to the topic. or do you mean to say that if a publisher chooses to release something digitally only, the artist should be held responsible to cover their loss due to piracy?
dont get me wrong, im all for argueing about those issues, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

and i can see the motivation of defending someone you had good experiences with, but imo thats not at all the question here anymore. i actually lost interest in what jmanley did or did not and what hes responsible for or not. whats more alerting to me is the way this issue is handled. when an artist tries to claim what is to be his/hers, we start to talk about piracy, and how much harm is done by it? "well lets have a look.... theres 14k copies sold and probably alot more pirated... be happy if we dont ask you (the artist) for compensation!" WTF.

[ConnyNordlund]

No you won't, because these same artists that leave go somewhere else to post. We are all on facebook, myspace, Cghub, cgsociety, deviant art, game artistsan, poly count 3d total, Muddycolors, etc. Take your pick. We are there.

I do think this raise a lot of my concern since I get commissions through the jobs section. If the audience goes, then I must take my leave. Especially if it has as bad of a reputation as this. This the second big one. I've been here a longtime. I hope this gets resolved. I will be over at the cghub and on facebook if your looking. Later gang.

This is so totally true. CA is just another portal for exposure. I'm connected to all my artist friends through facebook these days. I've actually gotten more jobs by posting "looking for work" on other random sites on the net.

[Beeston]

I want to highjack this thread to remind people of the positive aspects of this community. The idea that a rage fest can shoot to twelve pages in a day scares me.

http://conceptart.org/forums/lounge/...ame-thing.html

[twinkledust9000]

This is not a rage fest.

There have been artists that have been taken advantage of by Conceptart.org/TAD. One has publicly come forward to state this and a couple of others have verified it on other places like DA and Facebook. So it isn't an isolated incident.

I don't understand why anyone thinks it is an attempt to burn the community down. Those people were part of this community. They were here with us and contributed in an immense way. It probably wasn't easy for them to leave. It took the giant shit storm of '09 for them to leave. And now we're getting a glimpse of the reasons why because one of them has bravely come forward to warn us about what goes on behind closed doors. Considering all the questionable actions that JM had made in the past, I don't see why Cryptcrawler should be accused at trying to tear the community apart.

I sincerely doubt that Cryptcrawler would do this just to bring CA down and get a few buddies to verify the story for him. C'mon guys!!!! These were members of the community!!!! And look at how they are being questioned when after two years of being silent and not getting the pay they were owed one of them finally says something! I think it's shameful.

Also considering the time it's taking for a real response from either JM or TAD things are looking fishy. It almost seems as if they ate trying to concoct a story and get it straight with each other because JM and TAD are at each others throats on account of Manley getting kicked out of there.

I just don't know about this place anymore.

[JeffX99]

OK, since metaphor and hyperbole seem lost on a few folks I'll be as clear as possible. I'm trying to reiterate what I said earlier, and is pretty close to what Android was saying as well, that people get fucked in a lot of ways in all walks of life and in all professions. Sometimes it's their own fault for lax business practices and awareness...sometimes it's the fault of an unscrupulous business person...and sometimes it is simply no one's fault. Not saying it's ok, just saying some perspective and context may be of benefit.

Just weird to me how much people are up in arms over this. There's so much sword rattling and shield banging going on over this it is ridiculous. I get it, Brad's a hereo...hell, a saint it seems for "shedding light on such foul practices". Gimme a break. Like this is new? First time an artist, or any human got screwed out of some money? So Jason isn't a great guy to do business with, good to know. Don't do business with him. Know someone else who isn't good to do business with? George Lucas. Wanna talk about getting fucked? ILM's blatant ripoff of Jim Gurney's epic Dinotopia comes to mind. Did Jim whine and go on a public rant over it? No.

My point is I think it's pretty lame to throw the baby out with the water (as in abandon CA, fuck over TAD, whatever) over the kind of thing that goes on all the time in all areas of commerce for all kinds of reasons. For those that weren't able to connect the dots, if you're oh so upset about how poorly Brad was treated by the TAD monsters then I can't imagine how upset you must be over the banking industry fucking an entire country. Again, not defending or justifying...just offereing some context and perspective. If Brad was owed enough money an attorney might have been worth getting involved. If it wasn't enough money - small claims. If it wasn't worth that effort, then what? I'll just write a really angry blog post? Same goes for anyone else who had money owed them by TAD. There are professional and business-like ways to handle these issues...they're handled all the time through court systems set up to deal with these problems.

[skullsquid]

I don't understand either why people are saying that this will kill CA or TAD.
Honestly, this discussion has been relatively civil when it comes down to it. Granted some people have further motives to incite the flames and they stand to gain from stirring further shit.
But I think the vast majority are concerned and genuinely affected. Just because it didn't happen to me specifically, doesn't mean I should not care.
I've been screwed over in my career like anyone else, but if this shines a little more light on the problem or at least give more weight to the fact that we're all interconnected as artists, wether we like it or not.
Then it's a small victory and good step towards the right direction.

We as artists are not the islands we would like to believe, hell look at the forum, it's a testament of the type of community that we are.


JeffX99: I am pissed about the banking industry but that is far beyond my sphere of influence. The grindstone is this one, the art and design community at large.
I don't think calling attention to a problem is a 'rant'. It's this complacency that bother me; because it happens all the time then we shouldn't even bother discussing it.
Will people forget this happened in a month? Probably. But some will take from this and learn to value their time better and those of others.

[t i m]

@ tim... i admit my experience in this field is quite limited and i just tried to pull of an analogy. i appreciate your input about that issue, but its quite off it comes to the topic. or do you mean to say that if a publisher chooses to release something digitally only, the artist should be held responsible to cover their loss due to piracy?
dont get me wrong, im all for argueing about those issues, but it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

and i can see the motivation of defending someone you had good experiences with, but imo thats not at all the question here anymore. i actually lost interest in what jmanley did or did not and what hes responsible for or not. whats more alerting to me is the way this issue is handled. when an artist tries to claim what is to be his/hers, we start to talk about piracy, and how much harm is done by it? "well lets have a look.... theres 14k copies sold and probably alot more pirated... be happy if we dont ask you (the artist) for compensation!" WTF.

Make no mistake, I am 100% in favor of artists getting paid, and in a timely fashion too. :

I really don't want to derail this thread by going off onto a tangent about piracy. So all I will say is, no piracy does not relieve a company of their responsibility to pay their employees.

I want people to be pragmatic. Look at facts, view the problem from all sides, and come to a reasonable conclusion. My story about Jason and I was more of counterpoint to some of the other stories that were floating around, in particular about his character. It added little to the important issue at hand (artists being paid), but at the very least it might prevent some from jumping onto a band wagon of "hate". I may be dead wrong, but from my dealings with him he has earned the benefit of the doubt. Others of you maybe not. The truth will come to light...be patient.

In the meantime...Insect Battle!!

[twinkledust9000]

Well, maybe I'm just still young and idealistic and I just don't think it is OK to just let people get away with it and just shrug our shoulders and go "oh well". By letting it happen we share some small part of the responsibility. What if it happened to you and CA/TAD screwed you over and the community just looked at you and said "Gee. That sucks. Oh, well. Hey! It's crit week!" I'm not sure you'd be singing the same tune.

Everyone knows the community is great. Maybe it's just time to find a new place to go. We could do it together if we wanted. Although that might be like herding cats.

[Velocity Kendall]

Manley did respond on the previous page but its right at the bottom..
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...72#post3664272

[creeptool]

You're free to say whatever you want, but we're also free to call you an idiot for it. Please shut up. You're making the rest of us teenagers look bad.

I'm going withhold my opinion on CA until I hear more from Jason, but I just wanted to say that I'm really sad to see a lot of people go. A lot of you helped me when I needed it, both directly and indirectly through helping others or posting great advice. CA's a great community and I hope it stays that way despite all of this drama.

i'm free to say what i wan't? but then there's a big red saying that i'm village idiot every time i post... but i'm free to say what i like rite?... then every one can call my in idiot but that's ok?.. and they dont get a big red saying that there idiots? but i do? what does that say to you?

[JFierce]

Welp, hope some clarity of sort is given. Because reading through all these pages is just.... .... ... ...... .....good lord.... .... .....

[thomasChatworth]

JeffX99, you fail to see the point that Manley literally crucified people for the very thing he's doing to the best among us, in this community, the exact thing he claimed to be saving people from. For many, that is what hurts most. He claims to be the artists champion, when in the background, many people have been screwed by him for the very thing he rips others apart for.

CA.org = JM. You continue to support him, you'll get more of the same. Some people seem to like getting screwed, so next time maybe you should volunteer. Pretty simple really. The very least is that we can educate people that it will probably happen again.

[skullsquid]

i'm free to say what i wan't? but then there's a big red saying that i'm village idiot every time i post... but i'm free to say what i like rite?... then every one can call my in idiot but that's ok?.. and they dont get a big red saying that there idiots? but i do? what does that say to you?

I think that big red font needs to grow some more.

[Main Loop]

OK, since metaphor and hyperbole seem lost on a few folks I'll be as clear as possible. I'm trying to reiterate what I said earlier, and is pretty close to what Android was saying as well, that people get fucked in a lot of ways in all walks of life and in all professions. Sometimes it's their own fault for lax business practices and awareness...sometimes it's the fault of an unscrupulous business person...and sometimes it is simply no one's fault. Not saying it's ok, just saying some perspective and context may be of benefit.

Just weird to me how much people are up in arms over this. There's so much sword rattling and shield banging going on over this it is ridiculous. I get it, Brad's a hereo...hell, a saint it seems for "shedding light on such foul practices". Gimme a break. Like this is new? First time an artist, or any human got screwed out of some money? So Jason isn't a great guy to do business with, good to know. Don't do business with him. Know someone else who isn't good to do business with? George Lucas. Wanna talk about getting fucked? ILM's blatant ripoff of Jim Gurney's epic Dinotopia comes to mind. Did Jim whine and go on a public rant over it? No.

My point is I think it's pretty lame to throw the baby out with the water (as in abandon CA, fuck over TAD, whatever) over the kind of thing that goes on all the time in all areas of commerce for all kinds of reasons. For those that weren't able to connect the dots, if you're oh so upset about how poorly Brad was treated by the TAD monsters then I can't imagine how upset you must be over the banking industry fucking an entire country. Again, not defending or justifying...just offereing some context and perspective. If Brad was owed enough money an attorney might have been worth getting involved. If it wasn't enough money - small claims. If it wasn't worth that effort, then what? I'll just write a really angry blog post? Same goes for anyone else who had money owed them by TAD. There are professional and business-like ways to handle these issues...they're handled all the time through court systems set up to deal with these problems.

I don't think anyone's NOT upset over those other things, but because this hits so close to home is why it's really affected people. I'm actually surprised there isn't more saber-rattling... on second thought, this whole thing I think does more to confirm what they already suspected about Jason, the business of conceptart.org, and TAD. Did you notice how many people were not surprised that this happened?

[Main Loop]

i'm free to say what i wan't? but then there's a big red saying that i'm village idiot every time i post... but i'm free to say what i like rite?... then every one can call my in idiot but that's ok?.. and they dont get a big red saying that there idiots? but i do? what does that say to you?

It just confirms what we already thought

[Main Loop]

I think that big red font needs to grow some more.

hahahah

[Jason Manley]

I understand people needing time to step back and see evidence supporting one side or the other, I really do. But the tally of people that this same exact thing happened to that I know of is 3. One (Clochette) voiced this publicly, the other I was told of in a private message. These aren't people who go around "making trouble" and basically stayed out of the '09 drama here. I'm not going to pretend I'm not biased to think one side over the other, but it's not looking good for the side who owes the other one money.

Sometimes things are not what they appear. As an artist adept at incredible illusion I am sure you know that. I can say that I feel horrible about all of this. I have requested TAD deliver to me full records on the TAD videos (which I do not have, nor have I had access to despite numerous requests over many months) as part of my own answer seeking. You have blamed me personally and CA.O throughout this thread. I make zero money off other artists videos. I do not control TAD, I no longer work for TAD, nor do I control TAD, nor do I have transparency into TAD finances and neither does CA.O. I don't have access to the video stores TAD runs either and requested that again today. If an artist ever approached me with an issue I reported it immediately, including that of Rigney. I have zero emails from Clochette and have zero access to any emails between she and TAD finance, nor have I ever. I don't expect you to believe me but in time the smoke will clear and folks will see what the truth is.

For folks that did not see, I made a post to update in the prior page. I am going to go back to work on this and will ask again, please have patience while truth is provided to you all.


Jason

[Piracy Solution]

Hello ConceptArt.Org,

I saw the post made by Android where he mentions piracy being a problem and some other posts here so I felt I should comment. My name is Kelly Manley. I am CEO of piracysolution.com which handled the anti-piracy protection of the TAD videos which were sold through sold through payloadz.com and yahoo. So everyone knows, I am Jason's older brother and because of that I have been provided anti-piracy protection on the video tutorials at cost for the artist's and TAD. I have done piracy protection work on the videos of Massive Black and other artists and companies since 2009.

There is something I do not think any of the artists who hold royalty rights in these videos, including Android, realizes. For the past several months Jason has personally paid for the $3800.00 monthly fees for piracy protection of the TAD video content which it has previously sold. TAD stopped all payments for protecting those products shortly after taking them offline. I was included in a TAD Board meeting on the matter and Jason made numerous pleas to TAD's managers on behalf of the artists and for TAD to continue protection. Since then, TAD has not paid for the protection of Android's or the many other artists videos, Jason has. For a single individual, $3800.00 is a lot of money to spend every month to protect other artists content he doesn't personally see money from. Jason could have just paid to protect his own videos, but he did not. He paid to protect all of the artists videos which were part of the collection. He hoped TAD would re-release them as the community here needs low cost educational content. If he had not done that, none of the artist videos would be worth anything today. If TAD does re-release the videos soon, those artists will still see value, assuming TAD continues protecting the content.

In spring of 2009, Jason and Massive Black ran into an issue where the piracy was so bad that even with over 30 videos out, the average sales on those videos had dropped to the point where the artists were making very little and it made no sense to keep doing them. The impact of that was that ConceptArt.Org was going to go offline and close. My company helped Jason solve that problem and made it possible for the artists to make money again. Back then, some videos were being downloaded illegally by the thousands, most by members of this community. It took almost a year to get it under control. Even with piracy protection, sales dwindle in this business. That's how it goes. If the artists think they are making less money, of course they are. That's how the digital business is. The anti-piracy allows for money to be made though.

As I have previously had full access to the payloadz video site provided by TAD as part of my normal course of work, I can confirm that Android's comments about the video sales dwindling over time are true. That is common knowledge and no secret since that's the case with all films, video games, and digital content worldwide. Without the piracy protection they would have dwindled to nothing, instead of providing long term money to the artists, and TAD. I am not privy to information on whom or when TAD pays for it's videos, only to how they have performed over time. While other video tutorial businesses have been decimated, TAD's videos are still of value. It has been my job to make sure they keep performing over time and we have done that for all of the artists involved, which we could not have done without Jason's help.

Brad Rigney's video was removed from piracy protection when he and TAD agreed to no longer sell the Hostile Takeover video. That is the reason that video shows up as being heavily pirated now. Rigney's video was one of the most heavily pirated and required the most work over time to keep it off the torrent sites, which we did successfully until he agreed to stop selling and protecting it. As for the rest which were up for sale this past summer, we have been able to keep over 90 percent of the torrents offline.

I am also aware that for the past several months Jason has been personally paying for ConceptArt.Org servers, code work, bandwidth, and costs of keeping this site alive. I see him online working on this site every day, even if it is 4 or 5 in the morning. No one cares more about this community than he does. Who else would spend that much money out of his own pocket to keep it alive?

Piracy is the main reason that the artists that make videos have not made all the money they should have. Once an item video, art work, software, game or movie to name a few, is in the piracy community it takes a tremendous effort to maintain it. Piracy is like a disease, there is no cure but it can be managed and maintained to minimize the losses and ensure that those who create videos will still see money from them.


Kelly Manley
Piracy Solution
A Heart of the Lakes Co.

[Raoul Duke]

I believe Manley's statement.
From what Manley said, he doesn't know how to run his own company. He can't keep track of how much is coming in and going out. It was Massive Black, then TAD, then "Massive DVD". Brilliant Colors probably confuses matters further. It's an alphabet soup. Which makes it easy to assume there's a slushfund holding it together. Either way it's too complicated to sustain.

ELWELL WOULD KNOW WHAT TO DO.

[Main Loop]

Sometimes things are not what they appear. As an artist adept at incredible illusion I am sure you know that. I can say that I feel horrible about all of this. I have requested TAD deliver to me full records on the TAD videos (which I do not have, nor have I had access to despite numerous requests over many months) as part of my own answer seeking. You have blamed me personally and CA.O throughout this thread. I make zero money off other artists videos. I do not control TAD, I no longer work for TAD, nor do I control TAD, nor do I have transparency into TAD finances and neither does CA.O. I don't have access to the video stores TAD runs either and requested that again today. If an artist ever approached me with an issue I reported it immediately, including that of Rigney. I have zero emails from Clochette and have zero access to any emails between she and TAD finance, nor have I ever. I don't expect you to believe me but in time the smoke will clear and folks will see what the truth is.

For folks that did not see, I made a post to update in the prior page. I am going to go back to work on this and will ask again, please have patience while truth is provided to you all.


Jason

If not you then who? According to Brad, he was in communication with everyone in the company that would have had anything to do with it. You mean to tell me that as head of the company at the time you had nothing to do with it? Come on.

[skullsquid]

Piracy is not a disease it's a symptom, by the way.

[Raoul Duke]

38k a month is too much for a small business to sustain.

[twinkledust9000]

I agree with MainLoop.

Brad specifically said he contacted Manley. I'm sure it won't be hard to prove that if he has the emails. So, I'm sorry but Mr. Manley's statement sounds like a whole lot of smoke to me!!!!

I mean seriously, lets get a straight answer even without the particulars. Mr. Manley were you contacted by Mr. Rigney? Did he aske for you to pay him everything that was owed? Did you pay him or not?

These are simple questions. Why can't you just answer them for us?

[saprissa9]

i'm free to say what i wan't? but then there's a big red saying that i'm village idiot every time i post... but i'm free to say what i like rite?... then every one can call my in idiot but that's ok?.. and they dont get a big red saying that there idiots? but i do? what does that say to you?

Dude just stop.

[LORD M]

[Jason Manley]

Please wait for my full response. I am not going to be updating this thread further until I complete my research, and gather all information. If I did not have proof of what I am saying, I would not even say it. If my research takes four days or a week to put together, I will keep at it. I have asked for patience and that is all I can do. Folks are just going to have to wait for the answers.


Jason

[Venger]

Sometimes things are not what they appear. As an artist adept at incredible illusion I am sure you know that. I can say that I feel horrible about all of this. I have requested TAD deliver to me full records on the TAD videos (which I do not have, nor have I had access to despite numerous requests over many months) as part of my own answer seeking. You have blamed me personally and CA.O throughout this thread. I make zero money off other artists videos. I do not control TAD, I no longer work for TAD, nor do I control TAD, nor do I have transparency into TAD finances and neither does CA.O. I don't have access to the video stores TAD runs either and requested that again today. If an artist ever approached me with an issue I reported it immediately, including that of Rigney. I have zero emails from Clochette and have zero access to any emails between she and TAD finance, nor have I ever. I don't expect you to believe me but in time the smoke will clear and folks will see what the truth is.

For folks that did not see, I made a post to update in the prior page. I am going to go back to work on this and will ask again, please have patience while truth is provided to you all.


Jason

Admittedly we don't have all the facts, however it doesn't explain this:

"Strangely and sadly, my attempts to inform Jason Manley directly that TAD's financial department was refusing to pay me or even return my emails were met with contempt and condescending lectures.
At the time I couldn't understand it; I thought that he would have been keenly interested to know that something so damaging was happening in his own company; a company that prides itself on enlightening and educating artists.
After all, the financial department at TAD, his personal legal council, co-founder of TAD and other faculty had all been copied into the conversation by Mr Manley himself, it was truly baffling."

You didn't seem overly bothered when informed (according to Mr.Rigney) and we have no timeline on this - he could have informed you 2 years ago or last week.
If Mr.Rigney's documentation is correct, then your 'sudden concern' now, on exposure, seems a little hollow.

However - we don't have all the facts (and this reads like a little dig, though it's not suppose to be)

So I guess we'll wait…


(EDIT - ah I see Jason just posted at the same time…in fact everyone was posting at the same time, d'oh!)

[Main Loop]

That's how I know Brad is being honest. There is a history that happening with other people I know. I've seen the letters. I even have a condescending letter of my own, though I had nothing to do with what was going on at the time I got it.

[twinkledust9000]

I know anytime I'm completely innocent I have to do days of research just to be sure. (Sarcasm intended. Obviously.)

OMG!!! I couldn't roll my eyes back any farther if I tried.

[Venger]

We're reacting with half the facts - at some point it's got to become a legal issue (because one side will say one thing with evidence and so will the other) and that's for a court to judge rather than a bunch of 'artist's'.
Either way CA.org (forum and business) will take the hit, lost trust = lost revenue.