The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[Stoat]

Eh, I don't have the money for London anyhow. And, unless I see a convincing case that my participation on this forum is helping to perpetuate an out and out fraud, this all strikes me as profoundly none of my business.

[D0ming0]

Domingo- really man it makes a difference if Brad is owed 500 or 6000? Both are the same thing, clients who advocate artist rights stealing your money. The amount doesn't matter.

It makes a difference to me, that's all I can say. I can't address the stealing issue. If deliberate stealing took place, then the people who did it should be charged, prosecuted and go to jail. But about the amount thing, this is how I see it....

If some fictional forum founder/owner said to me....

Hay, you've got some serious skills, and I have a forum which has hundreds of thousand's of registered users. If you put in one, maybe two weeks hard work putting together something that could be really useful to them, you could make 10's thousands of dollars and the rest would go towards supporting the community.

I'd think it over, figure if I could use those 2 weeks more productively, then bite his arm off up to the elbow! I don't have access to that kind of market without forum guy, and no way am I making that kind of money without that kind of exposure. I weigh the risks and make a choice. I go in eyes open.

The point I'm struggling/trying to make is that Brad wasn't making that money without CA (in my opinion), if the amount overdue is a small fraction of his earnings, and his earnings carried a large profit margin, ALTHOUGH HE IS DUE THE LOT, I'm not sending him a sympathy card. If it is a large portion, then I'm 100% on his side. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I see it. Sorry.

btw, I don't know the amounts involved, so this is all fantasy. I'm just saying, if my son says 'that boy hit me!' I'm not going to do anything about it until I know more details, like why, where and how hard. Only after carefully weighing up all the facts will I then seek the little shit out and destroy him.

[Nemome]

I'll also back off from the forum.

Right now I'm not feeling comfortable and a lot of good people, and also friends already left this place, so there is no huge thing that keeps me here right now.
I would have loved to see the community grow again, helping out and suggesting new ideas, but right now it doesn't seem possible.
A lot of the facts Sorknes wrote down were unknown to me, but a few friends I talked to lately confirmed the stuff being said.
Even though I normally not rely on things happened in the past, this still does affect my current picture of CA.O.

It's sad to see the community falling apart, where I basically started out. No one really trusts the stuff that's happening and I can understand why. I am totally feeling the same.

With this said I hope that all artists will get their money and the artists who left will find a place where we'll be all together again.

I don't know if I'll get active again (perhaps if this site get's a community project again) so feel free to add me on skype or facebook (PN if you want my name over there) if you want to stay in contact.

Thanks,
Nemome~

[D0ming0]

That came out a lot snarkier than I wanted it to. All im saying is D0ming0, its good to expand your horizons. A forum is great for many things, but the more you diversify where your source of art education and interactions are, the better. Many artists throughout history have been known to take classes not only from one academy or atelier, but several, learning techniques from different masters and would travel to learn from many more. Im not saying leave this place, but I am saying its better not to throw all your chips on one card.

No problem, I do need to get outside more And as far as art is concerned, I had indeed expanded my horizons, it's just that this is the place is where I found out about all the awesome sites/people/resources out there. I am currently don't a portrait drawing course* that has blown my tiny mind, and made me look at what I'm doing with my art in a very different way. The two portrait drawing in my current sb are homework from week 4 of that. The 'Man' tore them apart, but I wanted to have something recent up before dipping my toe in here

Anyway, I value this place, and ALL the people in it, immensely. I owe you guys a lot, whether you be current or past members.

Cheers all, I'm off to do some drawing...

*I'm not mentioning any more about it in this thread, it just seems wrong. I'll do a review when I'm finished, with before and after stuff and what not.

[Black Spot]

I have the urge to shoot bookkeepers almost on a daily basis - just saying

Also I will give free hugs to CA members attending London - secret word is spinach

[Craig D]

So no Admin can really say if Dirty C is banned or not and why?

[haljarrett]

From the top on down, everyone comes out of this look like a bunch of silly little boys.

this. seriously, listen to the man!
The outcome will be the same between brad and jason no matter what you do, nothings going to happen that will make everyone leave the site, and I feel like that can be the only reason some people are still chasing this particular fox. What other outcome are you after? a public apology? would that seriously, actually make any difference?

[JeffX99]

Domingo- really man it makes a difference if Brad is owed 500 or 6000? Both are the same thing, clients who advocate artist rights stealing your money. The amount doesn't matter.

Hey Blue - I completely agree with the principle here, and it is mainly a matter of principle when talking amounts. I would just like to mention something I haven't seen brought up though...apparently Brad made a few tens of thousands with said video (better than I would have thought)...which is all good and I'm glad for him. So my question is could he have made that much without such a wide audience, distribution pipeline and front as CA provided? In other words, selling it himself through a blog, website, whatever? So to some extent being owed a bit (don't know how much) on the back end after a pretty successful pipeline was provided to you seems a bit whiny or petty to me. And again, if the money was a significant enough amount take legal action, small claims if necessary.

Again, not disagreeing with the principle...just that in the larger picture or context sometimes it doesn't hurt to bite the bullet a litle and be thankful for the opportunity rather than bitch about the last penny.

[Black Spot]

Dirty C is not banned

[Zenith_]

So no Admin can really say if Dirty C is banned or not and why?

I think what Randis meant was that the "sock puppet" account (twinkledust9000) that Dirty C explained about in his first post was banned, not Dirty C himself.

[Fallenangel]

JeffX99 , D0ming0 :
How and when it has become ok to not get a FULL compensation for a job that you did?
Anything else other than the FULL compensation that was agreed in the contract isn't a compensation, and yes a deviation even by a single dollar from the contact is not tolerable!

You are working, you have a contract with a person/company, if you are not getting payed the full amount, it is wrong!

Because next time your employer would simply say:
"Mate what are you talking about, what contract?! what money?! Your art is hanging on the front page of my site i think it would be enough for ya!"

Fallen.

[Ian Barker]

I think Jeff's point is that if Brad is arguing over mere dollars, it may have behooved him more to not burn the bridges to TAD, even though he obviously had the right to.

However it seems he had to fight to get every check the last couple years, so I guess he was willing to do that because he was sick of being involved with them and wouldn't want to be involved again anyways.

[Fallenangel]

I think Jeff's point is that if Brad is arguing over mere dollars, it may have behooved him more to not burn the bridges to TAD, even though he obviously had the right to.

The problem with this is what i've wrote already;
The next time you'd miss a $100 from your paycheck...than $500, than.... where is the limit? a $1000? 10000?

It is absolutely possible to argue with an employer/editor/company over your paycheck and at the same time remaining perfectly civil and retaining perfectly good business relations (as long as you do get what you deserve and on time).
I had it with a person i worked with, and after a small argument i got paid what we agreed upon....and you know what, we remained in perfectly good relations and i even worked for him again.


Cheers,
Fallen.

[Ian Barker]

The problem with this is what i've wrote already;
The next time from your paycheck instead of 10$ you'd miss a $100..than $500 than.... where is the limit? a $1000? 10000?

It is absolutely possible to argue with an employer/editor/company over your paycheck and at the same time remaining perfectly civil and retaining perfectly good business relations (as long as you do get what you deserve on time).
I had it with a person i worked with, and after a small argument i got paid what we agreed upon....and you know what we remained in perfectly good relations and i even worked for him again.


Cheers,
Fallen.

Totally agree with you that compromise isn't good. However your situation sounds very ideal, doesn't always go that smoothly. Brad tried to get those funds in a civil manner and had so much trouble he decided it wasn't worth it anymore. And he wanted to warn his fellow artists about working with CA/TAD. His journal was not intended to win what he was owed (according to himself).

Jeff's statement doesn't really apply to Brad because he's an established artist and doesn't need TAD to make his living. However if you're a new artist and a client screws you, you wouldn't want to make a big mess like this.

[JeffX99]

Fallen...there's principle, which as I said I agree with...and there's reality/life. Making +/- 20K through someone else's website that helped you make that through their distribution and established audience, well, a few bucks left over wouldn't be a big deal to me. And as I said, if it was a sizable amount then go through established business legal channels.

I agree you have to be watchful, but at some point not worry over every little penny.

[Henchman 21]

to velocity first-

i meant exactly what i said. brad's email was meant as a warning against the dangers of working with jason and nothing else. he doesnt have to prove what he said, as this (the internet) is not a court of law. what you and others are failing to realize is that if brads claims were unwarranted, his rant would have faded away by now, other artists hired by the same man wouldnt have backed him up, and old business dealings jason previously covered up wouldnt be crawling back into the light. if you want proof of brads statement, its in the other artists whove come forward's testimonies. if thats not proof enough for you, then you have more faith in a man with a known bad reputation than you do in now 5 peers with nothing but praise from the community. thats an insane lack of rationale on your part, and i dont mean that offensively, just objectively.

as for jason having to prove things on his end- i never said he has to, only that i hoped he would. brad made his case, and other pros came forward to back him up. he has his evidence in their testimonies. its foolish to think theyd all be lying just for the laughs- theyve done too much for the community for that to make sense. jason is the one with the bad rep here, being attacked from all sides (7 direct sources that have had dealings with him so far in this thread and on social media). Jason only has to prove things as far as his reputation will suffer even more if he does not. (brads reputation hasnt taken a hit due to this event- if anything hes actually garnered more support and respect.)

to JeffX99- sure, you can make an argument that without CAs audience and resources brad wouldnt have made as much off the download, but that argument misses the point entirely, because CA isnt the only site out there offering these kinds of services or tutorials, and brads name is big enough that he doesnt need CA or jason to sell his knowledge. he chose CA, and it backfired for him, and he wants to warn others about hi experience. thats all. the problem here isnt what brad made in relation to what he would have made without ca, its what brad made and was denied by one of now several available avenues to sell. Other sites with classes and downloads dont have anywhere near the stigma jasons products have accrued over the years, and events like this are lending them increasingly more credibility as the place to go to release your product.

one final note- again to kendall-

NDAs are not void if a client does not pay- at least not always. the legality in issues of broken contracts is always gray and always depends on the exact contract in question and its wording.

if you need an example of what im talking about- look to the increasing number of gaming studios being shut down without paying their employees in respect to art the employees can NEVER show or use in their portfolios. they werent paid, their salary contracts were dissolved, but the company still owns rights to their work and controls the non disclosure end of the deal.

im highlighting this because until we know for sure whats in the contract and the wording (which again, we probly wont ever know even post audit due to confidentiality), there is absolutely no certainty as to what brad can and cant do- or what rights jason has. its just conjecture, and not everything is as black and white as youve tried to show.

again, for anyone who still doesnt get it- brads letter has all the evidence you need with the several other well respected pros who have backed it up. if jason can prove the contrary ill be the first to apologize. but stop asking for proof- you have it.

unless of course you think brad, aurelie, andrew, carl, and others are all in on a hilarious joke with the intention of destroying a community they all actively try to help constantly. come on.



edit: changed 'client' to 'employee' cause i mistyped lolololololol

[Stoat]

Am I the only one thinking, "he made how much from a tutorial?!"

[Fallenangel]

Fallen...there's principle, which as I said I agree with...and there's reality/life. Making +/- 20K through someone else's website that helped you make that through their distribution and established audience, well, a few bucks left over wouldn't be a big deal to me. And as I said, if it was a sizable amount then go through established business legal channels.

I agree you have to be watchful, but at some point not worry over every little penny.

One can always find examples of deviations from the rules.
Hence, each and every one here supposed to do the math himself and decide in each situation what he would benefit/loose by doing X or Y,
BUT the basic rule is to get a full payment for a job that you did.

And i think it is very important especially for young artists (like myself) that usually do not work on projects that pay $20K+.
You ought to be payed first, than you can discuss other issues!

I responded to you and D0ming0, because it is not the first time i hear that, and it does sound like: "You got payed thousands of dollars....so why are you whining about a mere $100?!"
You see, it leads to other things, like withholding a $1000, delaying a payment for supposed damages/whatever....when it is your money.
You earned it and no one has the right to deny it from you hiding behind excuses like exposure/whatever, as long as it is in your contract it is yours.

Cheers,
Fallen.

[Whirly]

Am I the only one thinking, "he made how much from a tutorial?!"

Certainly gives me even more incentive to become an amazing artist

[jcpahl]

Am I the only one thinking, "he made how much from a tutorial?!"

No one could deserve it more; it's an awesome tutorial. I actually feel a little guilty that I got it on sale...

[D0ming0]

No one could deserve it more; it's an awesome tutorial. I actually feel a little guilty that I got it on sale...

On that note, 'Above the timberline' and 'The Mechanic' are also awesome, and the one by Dan Dos Santos. I paid full price for Brads, but those others I got for $8 each!! Made me feel guilty for sure. All four are very insightful about everything surrounding the painting.

[JeffX99]

Fallen - trust me, not advocating for lax business acumen, just felt it worth noting. Sometimes a little leeway isn't a bad thing in the larger picture. Often times you end up a skosh short in some deals...you work more hours than compensated for, travel that didn't get compensated fully, the stock isn't worth as much as promised/estimated, etc. Please, I definitely do not want to encourage or have young artists think it's ok to accept less than a job is worth - if you've read any of my posts here regarding business you'll know that is not my stance. If you really want to know a pro-tip secret on the subject...we include those kind of shortfalls and overclocking into our bids and or salary/benefits...'cause we know it's going to happen (don't tell anyone I told you that).

Some good points Henchman...what worries me is the notion that if "enough people say so" then it must be true. Yeah, maybe...often probably even...yet it is hard to condemn someone via heresay. Anyway, I'm not sure I see many folks with a beef/grudge who "actively try to help constantly" here. But whatever.

Anyway, not necessary to debate the finer points...I'm mostly speaking in general terms anyway.

[Ian Barker]

Am I the only one thinking, "he made how much from a tutorial?!"

It's a great tutorial, I'm glad it was so successful. CA.org is big-time exposure.

For future tutorials, workshops, etc, I wish CA would do it like the Humble Indie Bundles. You can adjust what percentage of your payment goes to which party, with options for the artists, the distributors, and charity.

[Henchman 21]

jeff-

i never said they help 'here'. i said they help. (and keep in mind when i say 'the community' i mean the entertainment art community in general- not the ca community- which is increasingly a smaller part of it.) brad offers feedback and crits and does interviews elsewhere, carl is one of the most known atelier instructors out west with a fantastic student rep, etc. they might not help 'here'- but their reasons (their statements in this thread alone) make why they choose not to obvious. many of the best instructors i know of in the entertainment art world are actually still banned here, and probly wouldn't come back even if that got revoked.

theres a huuuuuuuuge art world outside of ca now. it used to be the hub, but now you have all kinds of groups, workshops, events, and study programs. all elsewhere, and all valid options. people upset about the workshop should take note, despite my wishes that it goes forward unaltered.

[Velocity Kendall]

one final note- again to kendall-

NDAs are not void if a client does not pay- at least not always. the legality in issues of broken contracts is always gray and always depends on the exact contract in question and its wording.

if you need an example of what im talking about- look to the increasing number of gaming studios being shut down without paying their clients in respect to art the clients can NEVER show or use in their portfolios. they werent paid, their salary contracts were dissolved, but the company still owns rights to their work and controls the non disclosure end of the deal.

im highlighting this because until we know for sure whats in the contract and the wording (which again, we probly wont ever know even post audit due to confidentiality), there is absolutely no certainty as to what brad can and cant do- or what rights jason has. its just conjecture, and not everything is as black and white as youve tried to show.

You make a good point here. Artists need to be very careful what they sign and know how to stick up for your rights. I refer you to Randis' excellent notes on freelancing.. theyre here somewhere ill try finding them.
If a client wont let you add the things you want to the NDA or contract, be very wary of working with them, or go into it eyes open. For example if the project is a tech concept pitch, youll probably never be able to show the work whether or not the project gets funding because the design details will be proprietary and aggressively protected forever. Or like Jeff says travel isnt covered or stock turns out to be 10% of nothing. etc

Veneq hooked me up with one of Randis's post but Im pretty sure I remember a more detailed one specifically about contracts for freelancing in general.
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...43#post3000043

[Fallenangel]

Fallen - trust me, not advocating for lax business acumen, just felt it worth noting. Sometimes a little leeway isn't a bad thing in the larger picture. Often times you end up a skosh short in some deals...you work more hours than compensated for, travel that didn't get compensated fully, the stock isn't worth as much as promised/estimated, etc. Please, I definitely do not want to encourage or have young artists think it's ok to accept less than a job is worth - if you've read any of my posts here regarding business you'll know that is not my stance. If you really want to know a pro-tip secret on the subject...we include those kind of shortfalls and overclocking into our bids and or salary/benefits...'cause we know it's going to happen (don't tell anyone I told you that).

Some good points Henchman...what worries me is the notion that if "enough people say so" then it must be true. Yeah, maybe...often probably even...yet it is hard to condemn someone via heresay. Anyway, I'm not sure I see many folks with a beef/grudge who "actively try to help constantly" here. But whatever.

Anyway, not necessary to debate the finer points...I'm mostly speaking in general terms anyway.

Fair enough....cheers for the tip, it's a good idea.

Fallen.

[Jason Manley]

As I have said before, TAD should have paid it's bill. I ordered Rigney paid. I ordered other artists paid the few times I did get contacted by someone. Whether TAD finance listens to me, is not something I can control. I did do everything in my power to see it done. I sent MANY written requests over the long term to TAD Finance and TAD's CEO in control of Finance about whether anyone, including Brad, was owed funds, and if so, how much, and if so, were payment arrangements made (including through legal channels and also again last week in which I received no response to any of them). I even reached out to Brad himself and received no response. I am estimating that Brad was paid somewhere in the range of 25,000.00-30,000.00 USD prior to his last payment being due which was in the hundreds from what I can tell from the little information I have. I requested the passwords to the payloadz account multiple times to verify the gross sales data and they were not given to me when I did (which includes as recently as last week). No matter what amount was due, TAD should have paid it on time. I told them to get it paid. A certain party there was given formal verbal and written disciplinary action from me for failing to deliver the information to me. I assure you all that I did everything in my power to see that done. I did not have checks. I did not sign the checks. I did not control TAD Finance. CA.O has NOTHING to do with any of this. This is a matter between Brad and TAD's CEO and I am going to continue to fight to clear my name and that of CA.O. Regardless of the statements made, NO ONE deliberately or inadvertently stole anything. Late payments suck, I have had that happen to me countless times including from nearly all of my own clients. I would not wish that on anyone.

[Munin Raven]

A few thoughts from someone who has long had a casual input to this forum, but has only recently considered getting more involved with the site via the many activities, discussion, sketchbook groups ect...

The original thread topic and discussion is enough to make me stop and think for a minute, and take a look around. Many subsequent remarks I have read have made me almost feel like I'm backed into a doorway while a gang of little knee-gerk reactionist idiots rush past me on the way to some titillating 'event' they have no connection with or have any real notion of what it is about; they just smell the scent of possible carnage and blood, like a pack of wolves.

I've been around this site long enough to have read a bunch of past 'incidents' that ended in a bad way for everyone, and I've certainly read enough posts that later got deleted to get a good feeling for the ongoing undercurrent. Particularly some years ago when I saw a small number of people I very much admired, when I was getting back into art, up and leave, or were out right banned. That hurt, and I will admit it's the kind of vibe that stays with you.

I do have a history and an emotional connection to this forum, even though I have never posted much. I've bought downloads in the past too. It turns my stomach to think that talented individuals have suffered through non-payment and possibly general lack of respect, and I am all for the cause of those that say they will not let this issue go, or settle for anything less than what is right. I fully agree.

What I really want to post about is the down right juvenile band wagon-jumping that seems to be going on by some members. Correction: Past members (hopefully), if their last remarks are anything to go by. But what's the betting that at least a few of these hot tempered little sods will be back here shortly, now that it seems a no-ban has been declared to users responding to this thread.

Some users do seem to have legit issues, and they have been gracious enough to express them. Other users seem to have opted for a few one liners, and many of these also seem to be the ones barking about boycotting any future workshops, or indeed anything related to CA. That's just out of order and smacks of playground mentality, and herd culture. I bet if a recognised pro stopped by and posted (in jest) that he/she was done with CA and has set up a new art forum called fuckmeraggedwithavermilionlaidenfilbert.com, then more than one or two people would actually go looking to sign up!

Don't get me wrong, I do very much understand some of the reservations stated about being associated with 'something' that has some of it's offshoots in 'some other things', and may have done 'some bad things'; but when it comes to idiots trying to stoke the fire by running around all their usual social network outlets - spewing whatever heated garbage that comes into their heads - because there's finally a little excitement and new gossip in their lives, then sorry, but I have to say a big 'fuck you'.

To the rest, and to the current situation, I hope things can be resolved in a decent and timely manner. I still have some deep reservations, but in the mean time I will try to refrain from acting like a complete dick.

Posted in good faith.

[Jenesquoi]

Not to be too melodramatic, but I've been a passive observer of this place for many years. Made a couple of friends if it wasn't for this place. Yeah, it's unnerving to see what this place has been through and things not being handled well. If it means something I'd like to start getting back into this passion we all share and help this place out along with all the poison that seems to be seeping through its veins still. Not going to preach "can't we all just get along" but to be honest it is annoying to see all this going on, where people can't seem to enjoy what they love to do because of not getting what they deserve for such hard work. Shit happens... even where this place is now I'm up for jumping on the band wagon of such passionate people.

[Raoul Duke]

Jason-
I'm done with finger pointing. It all boils down to a withholding system by design. What changes are you planning to correct past mistakes? It may be too difficult to summarize until you know what cards you are holding via audit. Just start with the changes you are prepared to handle right now.