The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[paperX]

[B] DirtyC confirmed his usage, that was already tracked in the system,
and has been banned.

Attachment 1740415

It was twinkledust9000 the sockpuppet account that got banned not DirtyC right? You might want to reword that a bit there Randis...a bit confusing.

[Blue Severin]

Sweet. This is my first post in maybe three years due to many bans ending in the same issue you were having paperx, where I just kept getting server errors whenever I logged in. All due to having an IP at the unnameable atelier, with no inflammatory remarks or sock puppets on my part. (I guess twinkle dust was being used from there, tho it was only banned now).
Sorkness- amazing how concisely you captured all that.
Jason- c jee hub didn't steal CA events and ideas, those of us driven from CA started those all on our own.
Velocity Kendall- I like your attitude. Teaching/learning and Arting is more important than drama to me too.

So I'm wondering if an audit will even help at this point? After all the shenanigans, where people distrust Manley this much, if he comes out legally clear this one time, will it cancel out the rest? Well, he'll be legally safe. Will it stop people from boycotting his events? From leaving CA? This is just the newest piece of an already established behavioral pattern. It's no wonder why people with a bit of CA history are jumping on Manley, he's done it before. The defamation has already happened if this behavior is expected and unsurprising.

I'm glad to see he's not censoring this (and that I can post again) that's a step in the right direction anyway. Now if only I could type words important to the CA community, like where I studied art, a slightly different art site that has better portfolio management but the sketchbooks here are better? Dammit I can't discuss the ups and downs of those interesting art things at all, maybe I can somewhere else? cghub .

Edit ooo I got one of the words to work. Not a spiteful jab, literally typed two words after my sentence just to see. Only the one showed up, cuz it ain't SAFE here.

Edit A thought just crossed my mind, I wonder if I can't use my safe-word due to this site being contractually tied to another educational institution that saw us as unsafe competition when they were starting (lawl).

[haljarrett]

this thread could, feasibly go on forever...

What is anyone going to gain from it? oh wait, we are on the internet

[Fallenangel]

this thread could, feasibly go on forever...

What is anyone going to gain from it? oh wait, we are on the internet

We hoped, truth.... but apparently this is a very rare commodity these days.

Fallen.

[Henchman 21]

the threads gonna keep going until jason comes out and makes all these things clear from his end of the argument, like hes been saying he will do for like 4 days now. in those 4 days 5 other artists have come forward on the net having the same issue with jason, carl and students from the atelier have been weighing in about the validity of the remarks on jasons character, brad has been paid by the competent new managers of TAD, and quite a few members have bailed on this forum for the foreseeable future.

literally everyone here is waiting for these facts and truths from jasons end, and for issues so specific 4 days really has been enough time to look back at emails, talk to a lawyer, and make a real statement.

unfortunately, it seems any real evidence we could get is gonna be protected under the 'due to legal reasons i cant show you what i actually did, so take me at my word, which over the past 4 years means almost nothing in this community now'

not trying to be mean or commit libel and slander or be a hater, but when this many people dont trust someone and 5 big names come out of the woodwork to confirm suspicions, it stops being a coincidence. i dont hate ca as an idea or a place to work, and i love the events, but the stigma begins and ends with jason. at this point, i doubt were gonna see anything substantial in his defense, hes had enough time, and is already sinking into the legal jargon we all love so much.

and remember guys- brad made it clear in his original letter he wasn't trying to kill this forum, and he made it clear that people would contest his statement and call him a liar. all he wanted to achieve was letting other pros know not to trust jason as a manager or with their money. at least in that regard, his letter was a success.

[D0ming0]

We hoped, truth.... but apparently this is a very rare commodity these days.

Fallen.

Not really. If it was about truth, when J.Manley said he'd pay an independent auditor to go over things (one of his choosing, or one appointed by the community), the morally outraged that have been camping in here would have said..."Ok, we'll give you a couple of weeks, lets see what comes of that." But instead, the shit-fest has continued. Its gone in all sorts of wonderful directions, dragging all the old rotting bodies out of the closets. Paranoia is rife and very little of any substance to the original issue has been added.

One thing that has become clear to me is that there is a lot of history (good and bad) between guys like Carl and Jason and Brad and co. A lot more history than any of us in 'the community' has any right to now or care about. This is an internet forum, it's not your/my life. If you can't get past your moral outrage, take a deep breath and move on. We all make mistakes it life, the think is, in real life, you can't walk away, you've got to work around shit, forgive and forget, that sort of thing, or you end up isolated and friendless with only your hate to keep you warm at night.

I don't think J.Manley is blameless in this (but not fully to blame either*), but some of the hate he has had to endure is simply astounding. How could he not go defensive? If it was me, I'd be huddled up in the corner in a pool of my own piss by now. Jeez, it took me 2 days to recover when DPaint was a bit harsh with me. The internet is a very cruel place.

I'd find this whole thing entertaining, except I'm sure real people are being hurt, damaged and upset here. Can't we stop picking at the scab for a while and let it heal?

* Somewhere about 32.6% to blame, with a 1.2% margin for error.

Sincerely,
John Anderson.

[Henchman 21]

This is an internet forum, for fuck sake, it's not your/my life.

this thread began and continues to be about (amongst other things) the dangerous precedent being set by jason (or others, for sake of argument) not paying artists their due, most of which are freelancers.

this precedent affects everyone else freelancing and if left unchecked could make things much worse for everyone. most of us already have it bad enough with unfair rates, late pay, and no benefits (even at the top).

so im sorry, but for a lot of us who actually do freelance all the time, this really is directly related to our lives. get some actual perspective on things before posting stuff, and dont say 'fuck' repeatedly, it makes your argument look like a 13 year old wrote it.

[D0ming0]

unfortunately, it seems any real evidence we could get is gonna be protected under the 'due to legal reasons i cant show you what i actually did, so take me at my word, which over the past 4 years means almost nothing in this community now'

See what I mean, we're now predicting what the audit will say. The value of an independent audit is that the auditor can say, "I've looked at all this stuff that can't be released for legal reasons, and here are the people who would not co-operate, and here are the conclusions I draw from it."

and remember guys- brad made it clear in his original letter he wasn't trying to kill this forum, and he made it clear that people would contest his statement and call him a liar. all he wanted to achieve was letting other pros know not to trust jason as a manager or with their money. at least in that regard, his letter was a success.

Yeh, and Brad failed to provide any substance either "for legal reasons". If he had said either of....

(a.) Of $18,000 I was due, I have not been paid $12,000
or
(b.) Of $18,000 I was due, I have not been paid $500

I would think quite differently about what has happened. If (a.), I wouldn't even be here, for (b.) I'd be thinking, I wish I could swap problems with this guy. Currently, I don't know what to think.

[Henchman 21]

i was commenting on things jason already said, if you had read them. hes already pointed out a few times that he cant share information people are asking for for legal reasons. about brad, carl, mb, etc. so of course im assuming we will hear more of that when (and if) he does post any new info.

if you knew anything about contracts, youd know brad most likely signed some non disclosure and confidentiality agreements. what he did post was risky enough and certainly broke or rode the line on those. posting all the details would have been worse for him, so of course anyone reading his statement familiar with what hes had to sign understands why he wouldn't share it.

not to mention, without screenshots of actual emails and account balances and bank statements, everything he could have said would have been doubted or denied by people like you anyways, so why bother. he didnt show those things because he cant- and again, anyone who works even a small amount is familiar with the kind of legal reasons why he cant.

and just to reiterate something i said before, for the people who will read the above and say 'well if he broke his contract by posting the letter why wasnt he sued?'. because he made this public, and he made it about the only person he knows to be responsible. now that others have come forward, a lawsuit against brad would be suicide for anything remaining in jasons reputation / argument.

these contracts are also the reason more pros arent coming forward.

the last thing- brad doesnt need to prove the legitimacy of these things to people like you. his letter was for other people who might work with jason, and since he posted it many more have come forward with the same complaint. his goal wasnt to show legal evidence that jason should be taken to court- with jasons money and resources thats pointless so why bother. all he was trying to do was save other people from falling into the trap. if it was just brad complaining, id see merit to the doubt, but its not just brad- its practically everyone whos ever worked with jason. many are complaining about him in the open, and thats admirable. but the other thing to consider is that almost no one is rushing to his defense either. having been affiliated with so many large art groups with so many prestigious names knowing him, its kind of odd to consider none of them have any reasons to defend his character in this, right? by all means form your own opinion- just understand brads intentions and the legalities preventing information on both sides.

[D0ming0]

this thread began and continues to be about (amongst other things) the dangerous precedent being set by jason (or others, for sake of argument) not paying artists their due, most of which are freelancers.

Look, you've made up your mind, I am fine with that, but some of us want to wait and see what the promised audit report concludes.

so im sorry, but for a lot of us who actually do freelance all the time, this really is directly related to our lives. get some actual perspective on things before posting stuff

Just because I'm not a professional artist, doesn't mean I don't have perspective. I have worked for myself for over 20 year, and some of those years were really very tough. Non-payment, outsourcing to asia/india, undervaluing work, skills, etc is rife in IT too. It's painful to live through, but the internet is changing the world.

I have all the perspective I need to see when the pitch forks are out a wee but prematurely.

(by the way, I removed the sweary words, thanks for the the tip, it did come across as a bit juvenile)

[Henchman 21]

i really do love this mob mentality defense i keep seeing in here, its a very clever way to say 'even when everyone else agrees, they're still wrong'. i do have to applaud that, its an invincible defense.

[D0ming0]

i was commenting on things jason already said, if you had read them. hes already pointed out a few times that he cant share information people are asking for for legal reasons. about brad, carl, mb, etc. so of course im assuming we will hear more of that when (and if) he does post any new info.

I have read everything I can find on this matter, why are you insinuating that I haven't?

if you knew anything about contracts, youd know brad most likely signed some non disclosure and confidentiality agreements. what he did post was risky enough and certainly broke or rode the line on those. posting all the details would have been worse for him, so of course anyone reading his statement familiar with what hes had to sign understands why he wouldn't share it.

Now I don't know anything about contracts? I know enough that my lawyer would not let me sign one that was not void upon non-payment.

not to mention, without screenshots of actual emails and account balances and bank statements, everything he could have said would have been doubted or denied by people like you anyways, so why bother. he didnt show those things because he cant- and again, anyone who works even a small amount is familiar with the kind of legal reasons why he cant.

What kind of people are those? The kind of people I am are the kind who don't think that there are enough facts out there to be slinging that kind of abuse about. I HAVE NOT decided yet. I know you don't believe me, and I will not try any further to change your mind, but that is the single clearest fact about my stance.

and just to reiterate something i said before, for the people who will read the above and say 'well if he broke his contract by posting the letter why wasnt he sued?'. because he made this public, and he made it about the only person he knows to be responsible. now that others have come forward, a lawsuit against brad would be suicide for anything remaining in jasons reputation / argument.

So, he can't post the amount because of the contact, but Jason can't sue because it would be suicide? Actually, I agree, it would be suicide for Jason to sue, so why can't Brad post the numbers again?

these contracts are also the reason more pros arent coming forward.

the last thing- brad doesnt need to prove the legitimacy of these things to people like you. his letter was for other people who might work with jason, and since he posted it many more have come forward with the same complaint. his goal wasnt to show legal evidence that jason should be taken to court- with jasons money and resources thats pointless so why bother. all he was trying to do was save other people from falling into the trap. if it was just brad complaining, id see merit to the doubt, but its not just brad- its practically everyone whos ever worked with jason. many are complaining about him in the open, and thats admirable. but the other thing to consider is that almost no one is rushing to his defense either. having been affiliated with so many large art groups with so many prestigious names knowing him, its kind of odd to consider none of them have any reasons to defend his character in this, right? by all means form your own opinion- just understand brads intentions and the legalities preventing information on both sides.

But Jason does have to prove everything, and also show us he had clean underwear on? Sorry, but that's not right.

I know you don't think this has anything to do with me (not being a 'pro'), but actually it does. Brads broadside has endangered (in my mind at least) the London event. I want to go, I need to organise travel, hotels, the event itself. If I spend all that money, (about $1500 I think), then things fall through, and eventually it turns out Jason isn't fully to blame, who do I sue? (theoretically, cos life is way to short)

[Henchman 21]

in that event, you sue noone. cause it wouldnt be worth the cost of the suit. obviously. jason would probly refund the ticket cost and you might take a hit on the plane ticket / hotel.

[Candra H]

Just to clarify.

In the first few hours and days after Brad Rigney's original journal entry appeared on Deviant Art, there was very much a mob mentality and a witch hunt. People after Jason's blood calling him liar, thief, he should be strung up, egomaniac etc. So while a lot of Sorknes' post made for interesting reading, this particular observation was wrong -

Fifth: The only mob mentality I have seen in this current case is here on CA. Any other place it is individuals sharing their experiences, having what looks to me mostly civil conversations, and in general trying to find out what this has to say to where they stay on a number of cases today. That said, I am sure I am not participating in all art communities or social medias online, but I can honestly say that I have not seen any lynch mob anywhere other a few very annoyed people that is telling about their past experiences.

Things have only stayed nasty here because people have access to the man himself and can keep goading and picking at him until he eventually breaks and does what they say he'll do anyway - ban everyone in the heat of the moment. I hope he doesn't but five days of constant hate and harrassment is a lot to take so I don't know. I think he's handled this well so far but people are just people and we all have our breaking point. And like Jeff and VK have said before, I wont stand by quietly while a witch-hunt ensues. I'll support Jason's right to a fair hearing even if it turns out he's in the wrong because resorting to mob rule makes us no better than thugs.

I don't have anything against Brad, Jason, or any of the other guys involved in this madness, which does look more and more like people airing their past dirty laundry in public with every post. I just want everyone to be civil and on the same page. And on that count, I'm going to make a public apology to paperX. I already talked to him in pm's about it but I might as well pop it in here too. I jumped to my own wrong conclusions about his account a couple of pages back and I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. I realise things werent as simple as they seemed on closer inspection.

[Zenith_]

Brads broadside has endangered (in my mind at least) the London event.

It suck that people are pulling out of the event but do you really think they would do so based on the opinions of one man alone?
I'm sure the people that won't be attending have had other dealings with Mr Manley and/or have heard other not-so-nice things about him, or maybe this is the straw that broke the camel's back.

EDIT: Just wanted to clarify that I'm not entirely sure what to think about this whole situation yet. I'm hoping that Jason will prove himself to be telling the truth, just for the good of CA, but if not.... I don't know. You have to admit that his reputation precedes him.

[D0ming0]

i really do love this mob mentality defense i keep seeing in here, its a very clever way to say 'even when everyone else agrees, they're still wrong'. i do have to applaud that, its an invincible defense.

No, it isn't invincible. Just show some facts. And by the way, I don't consider everyone pulling Jason up to be in the mod, just the 'morally outraged'. And that comment wasn't even necessarily about (most) of the guys on here, and certainly not about you, I've found some of your comments to be very insightful.

I'm sure you read the comments on Brads DA post and elsewhere? A lot of hate going about.

[Fallenangel]

Not really. If it was about truth, when J.Manley said he'd pay an independent auditor to go over things (one of his choosing, or one appointed by the community), the morally outraged that have been camping in here would have said..."Ok, we'll give you a couple of weeks, lets see what comes of that." But instead, the shit-fest has continued. Its gone in all sorts of wonderful directions, dragging all the old rotting bodies out of the closets. Paranoia is rife and very little of any substance to the original issue has been added.

One thing that has become clear to me is that there is a lot of history (good and bad) between guys like Carl and Jason and Brad and co. A lot more history than any of us in 'the community' has any right to now or care about. This is an internet forum, it's not your/my life. If you can't get past your moral outrage, take a deep breath and move on. We all make mistakes it life, the think is, in real life, you can't walk away, you've got to work around shit, forgive and forget, that sort of thing, or you end up isolated and friendless with only your hate to keep you warm at night.

I don't think J.Manley is blameless in this (but not fully to blame either*), but some of the hate he has had to endure is simply astounding. How could he not go defensive? If it was me, I'd be huddled up in the corner in a pool of my own piss by now. Jeez, it took me 2 days to recover when DPaint was a bit harsh with me. The internet is a very cruel place.

I'd find this whole thing entertaining, except I'm sure real people are being hurt, damaged and upset here. Can't we stop picking at the scab for a while and let it heal?

* Somewhere about 32.6% to blame, with a 1.2% margin for error.

Sincerely,
John Anderson.

A. See my previous posts about this audit thing - i'm tired of repeating myself.

B. An audit that might come out some time in the near/far future won't solve any of the problems, won't heal/restore the CA community to it's former glory.
The entire purpose of this audit, as stated by Jason in one of his previous posts is to clear his own name, period.

C. You are wrong, this is our life, this is our community CA (and the bigger freelance art community), and I don't want to get in the same mess.
Hence i want to know what happened here and how to avoid it.

D. On the internet people are usually more courageous due to the lack of actual "face to face" interaction.
However, we have every right to express ourselves here.
Moreover, because a lot of people who were posting here are old members (that witnessed some very nasty things happening on CA, with TAD, Jason) you have to understand that they already do have a certain "bias" on those subjects.

E. We can stop picking the scab, but if there is already an infection underneath it, instead of healing, it would simply spread out and kill the entire body.

Cheers,
Fallen.

[paperX]

Sweet. This is my first post in maybe three years due to many bans ending in the same issue you were having paperx, where I just kept getting server errors whenever I logged in. All due to having an IP at the unnameable atelier, with no inflammatory remarks or sock puppets on my part.

I never realised such a thing was possible...certainly doesn't help with the worrisome atmosphere in this thread. I just hope others haven't been 'silenced' in this manner.

And on that count, I'm going to make a public apology to paperX. I already talked to him in pm's about it but I might as well pop it in here too. I jumped to my own wrong conclusions about his account a couple of pages back and I'm sorry I reacted the way I did. I realise things werent as simple as they seemed on closer inspection.

Thank you Candra, definitely no hard feelings here

I'm sure you read the comments on Brads DA post and elsewhere? A lot of hate going about.

We pretty much look like assholes to most of the wider art community at this point. I really wish Jason would go out to at least try and reach out to the wider community like the guys at TAD did.

I hope the audit goes well and we get an answer soon, in the mean time I'm more interested in seeing if John English at TAD pays the other artists who also got screwed out of their royalty checks too. To be honest John has really handled this better than Jason, if Jason wants to fix CA's reputation at this rate he really needs to get out there and explain himself.

[JeffX99]

I just have to say something here...about sock puppet accounts and deleting posts. Bullshit. BULL...SHIT! You post something - you leave it. Edit in a *PS update if necessary but I have zero respect for anyone who says something and then deletes the post - on either side. You can't "unsay something" you say in a bar or in real life. You have something to say - say it with the name you are associated with.

And sock puppet accounts? I can think of no lower form of interaction...anywhere.

[Henchman 21]

what fallen said.

a few last things before i get off of here for the day (this thread feels almost like a part time job now haha)

domingo, i dont look down on you cause you arent a 'pro', im just commenting on how lots of people in here havent had to deal with the types of contracts and legal stuff brad has to and jason has to. most of them probly dont even realize there are clauses at the end of emails saying things to the effect of 'this email is confidential and the sharing of which constitues a etc etc etc' or 'this email represents a binding contract with the entity of ---, and the sharing of specific details within represents a breach of etc etc etc. (hence why brad warning people to avoid jason is one thing, and sharing those emails is quite another from a legal standpoint)

i fully support the london event and i hope people still go. as ive stated in here a few times already, jason might be throwing the event, but hes easily the least of the reasons anyone is going. the instructors have a lot to offer and great insight, and every event ive been to has been a blast on the whole. those of you on the fence should go, and if you have a problem with jason, let him know in person at the event. however, if the event does fall apart due to instructors leaving/not wanting their names attatched to it, that is unfortunate for the students who may have gone. but try to understand that they are simply making career moves, and that they should not be held to blame for doing so. neither should brad. these are all smart, adult people whove been in the buisiness a long time. im sure they've done their fact checking in private, weighed the pros and cons, and talked to their peers before deciding to pull out. accusing them of simply hopping on a bandwagon when they had agreed to go and help in the first place is silly- they've obviously reached out to others in this thread to get a sense of validity that has (at this point) been impossible to show publicly.

even if the event does get cancelled (which i dont think it will and hope it does not) i can think of at least 4 others going on in places all over the world worth going to. this event isnt the end all be all, there are others (many with the same instructors)

there is a lot of hate going around, and it would be nice if people could read the entire thread before reposting points that have already been made (something ive had to do several times because people dont read everything). but unfortunately, this thread has become an epic novel so thats understandably unrealistic. for perspective- most of this hate is pent up and 4 years old- and people are talking about it now because the last time this happened we were not allowed to. people were banned, threads deleted, arguments erased. jason has stated those things wont happen here, so of course those old skeletons are coming out at long last. you really cant blame people for it, as sad as it is.

[D0ming0]

A. See my previous posts about this audit thing - i'm tired of repeating myself.

Yep, fair enough.

B. An audit that might come out some time in the near/far future won't solve any of the problems, won't heal/restore the CA community to it's former glory.
The entire purpose of this audit, as stated by Jason in one of his previous posts is to clear his own name, period.

And hopefully CA.O by association. But no doubt a lot of the damage is irreversible. Bad news always sticks.

C. You are wrong, this is our life, this is our community CA (and the bigger freelance art community), and I don't want to get in the same mess.
Hence i want to know what happened here and how to avoid it.

Ok, I won't argue. But if CA goes, where will you go then? Are you going to want to vet the owners/operators there?

D. On the internet people are usually more courageous due to the lack of actual "face to face" interaction.
However, we have every right to express ourselves here.

You're UK based, surely you've heard of Lord McAlpine. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21534398) People are going to have to start being more careful what they say on the internet. There's some crazy stuff happening. That's one of them, there's also the guy who was convicted of threatening to blow up West Midlands airport because they lost his bags or something. http://metro.co.uk/2010/09/24/paul-c...parody-525024/

Moreover, because a lot of people who were posting here are old members (that witnessed some very nasty things happening on CA, with TAD, Jason) you have to understand that they already do have a certain "bias" on those subjects.

E. We can stop picking the scab, but if there is already an infection underneath it, instead of healing, it would simply spread out and kill the entire body.

Fair point, but to stretch the metaphor, it currently sounds like, "We're going to cure this patient, even if it kills him"

John.

[Fallenangel]

Ok, I won't argue. But if CA goes, where will you go then? Are you going to want to vet the owners/operators there?

I already walked away from CA in 2011 for about a year because i had enough of those nasty little things and because i didn't like how the CA community started to look like.
I returned after the last re-load in a hope that things and the community would look different this time but.....
I'm also active on other sites with stricter and looser rules, and i never had any problems with them or their mods/owners.

Fair point, but to stretch the metaphor, it currently sounds like, "We're going to cure this patient, even if it kills him"

John.

Sometimes it is the last and the only possible option...especially if the patient doesn't want to be cured.

Cheers,
Fallen.

[Velocity Kendall]

Now I don't know anything about contracts? I know enough that my lawyer would not let me sign one that was not void upon non-payment.

NDAs are void if the employer doesnt pay. If you ever signed one where this wasnt the case YOU dont know about contracts.

Brad doesnt have to produce any evidence but Jason has to produce everything. Thats fair how?

But hey logic and fairness are not the mob's strong suits, and who needs facts when youve got a flood tide of hatred to ride?


Oh and big name artists using sock puppets? Grow up you fucking children.


Im stepping away, time for a sabbatical I think. Venger and Elwell, heroes of the Crit Forum and the backbone of the community have already been driven out by this ugliness. Ill still do Crits over there if people continue to ask for them, till better arrangments can be made.

I agree there is rarely smoke without fire...Dodgy business dealings, ugly past events, artists not being paid, whiny open letters, artists using fake names for anonymous bullying, seems all my heroes are turning out to be morons... would Syd Mead have ever done anything like this?

From the top on down, everyone comes out of this look like a bunch of silly little boys.

If this is "The Industry" Im supposed to be so afraid of offending, Im sorry I ever gave such people the time and respect. Thanks to all the people who tried to appeal for calm in the face of a baying mob of spotty internet dicks.

[Ian Barker]

the threads gonna keep going until jason comes out and makes all these things clear from his end of the argument

As it should. When it falls off the page people eventually forget anything happened.

[Dished]

The audits wont fix the problems of the forum, community, nor excuse any behavior Manley has exhibited here in the forum or in person in the past. Theres a lot history folks, much more than this thread and off the internet. It's nasty, it's messy and its a huge can of giant worms. Its a small industry, people talk and hear things outside of ca.org, some people even experience these things firsthand, and when things get this heated, it usually doesnt just come out of thin air. What happened to Brad sucked. It happened to other people too. This guy has done a loooooot of things in the past that have wronged many people in one way or another. The reason for all this said hate and bias? He's just reaping what hes sown.

Ok, I won't argue. But if CA goes, where will you go then? Are you going to want to vet the owners/operators there?

Theres this beautiful place called the outside world. Its a wonderful place.


edit: That came out a lot snarkier than I wanted it to. All im saying is D0ming0, its good to expand your horizons. A forum is great for many things, but the more you diversify where your source of art education and interactions are, the better. Many artists throughout history have been known to take classes not only from one academy or atelier, but several, learning techniques from different masters and would travel to learn from many more. Im not saying leave this place, but I am saying its better not to throw all your chips on one card.

[Craig D]

Randis
You said you banned Dirty C. If that is true, it doesnt show he is banned though ??,
Dirty C said he did not post under Twinkledust and there is every reason to believe him. He should not be banned.

Can an admin clarify this please.

[onionface]

I have no doubt that Jason is covered legally. And he can claim ignorance until the cows come home, I do not care about this.
My biggest concern, which seems to be missed by most in the flurry of slanders and cries for Evidence, Is that Jason and TAD were fully aware of this problem a long long time ( 2 years? ) before Brad went public.
Jason never thought is necessary to audit, and TAD never thought it their responsibility to pay Brad, until they had been exposed publicly.
If I was founder and part owner of a company, and for 2 years one of the contractors " whom I respect " was continuously contacting me with payment issues, you can bet your ass I would not wait 2 years to audit the company!
I would be very concerned about the competence of the managerial staff, and also the financial state of said company.

The FACT is, that when Brad was put out of pocket, when it was his money that was missing, TAD and Manley were not concerned.
But as soon as TAD's income is threatened and Jason is questioned about his degree of knowledge, then they suddenly jump in to action, suddenly audit, suddenly pay Brad the outstanding amount within days!, suddenly they all care a lot about doing the RIGHT THING, finding the TRUTH!

As my grandmother would say in such situations, " Pull the other one dear, it has bells on. "

[JFierce]

Go away for a day, come back. Good lord some dirty laundry was aired in here. Knew it was coming but didn't expect this much.

Honestly I still just want to know it it was Jason or someone in TAD that was the cause of Brad not getting paid. That was how this incident began and where it will end for me. Originally had a general idea, but saw Sterlings post which showed a counterpoint to my original thoughts. So just waiting on a document that legally shows "such and such filed a report". Show that and I'm good. All the dirty laundry from every drama incident on the site. Would be nice to see answers. But eh I'm not expecting more than 'he said she said' conversations as far as that goes.



Edit: This 2 years thing with Brad. I've heard very conflicting things. Brads post made it at least "seem" like he didn't see a dime for 2 years. I think some posts earlier I saw made it seem like he was getting paid, and he's been paid most of what he owed, 10's of thousands I think I saw, except for a bit of it that was not until this event happened. Even something about last quarter and payments. Which financial quarters aren't years, this deals in months..... still confused on this.

[Blue Severin]

Lol velocity, Brad got paid, meaning that he had been denied pay. Fact. Was it TAD, Manley, or beaurucratic indifference that kept him (and the others who came forward) from getting paid? Maybe a combination of the three? Well, Brad has been paid, and is fine with TAD, according to his deviant art post. His purpose of warning people of a cocked-up working relationship (that's the point after all) is successful. Lol he needs to prove the numbers/correspondences so we know he got screwed and to know to watch ourselves if choosing to work with certain entities? I think we know the answer to that. I'll not hold it against you, Velocity, if you choose to go to London. There'll be lots of people eager to learn, but I also understand why people would back out.

Also, as DirtyC stated, that particular sockpuppet was started as a joke by students years ago (not Carl), and caught a much bigger shark than intended. And also as stated could be any of a dozen people.

Domingo- really man it makes a difference if Brad is owed 500 or 6000? Both are the same thing, clients who advocate artist rights stealing your money. The amount doesn't matter.

[Velocity Kendall]

I agree with you Blue, I think this whole Royalty Dysfunction and what came after is a horrible mess and I dont like any of it.

Re London, my internal debate is a difficult one. I dont want to support a crook commiting fraud, which is the allegation flying around. I do want to meet all my friends from TAD and CA that planned to go. I am waiting to see what happens.

Much of this makes me think something like manic depression type problems might be the cause. When manic, sufferers can feel expansive and full of big ideas, which can inspire other less ambitious people to gang together.
At other times, paranoia and worry takes over, creating an atmosphere of animosity and destruction. This trouble can be amplified in business when many perfectly sane people genuinely are out to make a quick buck.
Both aspects can be infuriating. But also can create huge good things, like CA.
And many things can get confused seen through the prism of the internet.

I dont think deliberate premeditated wickedness is evident. At least not from the main players. Just a great many mistakes.

As for allegations of theft, that is for the law to decide not us.