The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[thomasChatworth]

What about the users who have been banned who want to delete their images, threads, posts and content here? Because they are banned they are unable to do so even if they want to. It is their intellectual property. Will you honor and respect the protection of that property by allowing them to remove their history here?

Currently banned users have no way of removing their history here.

There is a long list of users who would prefer to not continue to have this site benefit from their hard work and efforts when they are treated so disrespectfully. The least you can do is allow the content to be removed. If all the banned users removed their sketchbooks and art from the site, it would be a shell of its former self. Maybe that is the reason why.

It's deceptive to ban a user without fair warning and leave their artwork around, giving the illusion that they are still active members who support the community. The new guys wonder why the old guys don't post anymore. Could it be because they CAN'T post anymore? Like half of the Massive Black artists accounts? Your actions are the reasons why half the amazing talent had to leave here to find new homes, because they couldn't log into their own accounts to keep posting.

After so much bad press lately, many of us want no trace of ever being associated with this site, and we would like a way to wipe our history clean here. Every other site provides users a way to do this. Can you provide a way for us to do this?

If you can't do it, you should add something to the sign up form which flashes a big warning sign that says:

Alert, you may be banned at any time for no good reason and without warning. Especially if you say or do anything that the management doesn't like. But we won't tell you what we don't like until it's too late.

After you are banned, you won't be able to log in and your account will be kept online with no mention of how or why you have stopped posting. We will continue to promote your images and threads as if you were still an active member."

[Velocity Kendall]

If people start getting banned Im done.
I dont want to live in fucking China.

Free speech and a fair trial, I will fight for either and if the former gets curtailed in this omni-shambles, bye.

[Arshes Nei]

Many of us want no trace of ever being associated with this site, and we would like a way to wipe our history clean here. Every other site provides users a way to do this. Can you provide a way for us to do this?

That's actually not true. There are many sites that don't fully allow you to delete your profile be it technology reasons or how each site wants to maintain themselves. Unless you have statistical data on every site out there.

Other reasons sites don't let you fully delete profiles. For example email accounts: usernames were recycled and people who forgot they used an old email account on other sites only to find those sites compromised. "Whoops forgot to change my facebook email address, and someone hacked my account using a recycled username"

But again there are a lot of people who aren't technically savy, or don't understand various software/forum/script packages out there and will go into conspiracy theory mode. It also goes the other way too. Just want to make clarification that it's really not as simple as you think it is.

[thomasChatworth]

Other reasons sites don't let you fully delete profiles

Other sites also don't delete your account out the blue for no good reason and then never respond to any contact request ever again.

Unless it's run by a 5 year old.

There is a deceptive nature to leaving the account online without any notice on the user's account that they can't actually USE the account, and other members perceive them to be active in the community.

[Stoat]

I haven't followed this whole thread. Sure, it's drama. But it doesn't look like *fun* drama.

I have to say, though, I've been on dozens of sites that will ban a user for the most arbitrary and ridiculous reasons. It is, in fact, more common than not. I've participated in some ridiculously heavy-handed forums in my time.

In fact, I got myself banned from so many Yahoo Groups so many times back in the day that I figured out a little hack to unban myself. That earned me an official warning from Yahoo. Official warnings come from -- I am NOT kidding -- someone calling himself the Yahoo Sheriff.

As for scrubbing all your posts and flouncing off in a huff...well, you wanna talk 5 year olds.

[IanLlanas]

I started hanging out here in 2008 and had a hiatus because of a lot of heavy life changes. Recently came back after re-focusing on art again and felt like I was walking into the Mines of Moria, "This is no mine, it's a tomb."
Couldn't figure out what the hell happened as there was no record anywhere, I guess now I have a better idea. It's a damn shame.

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that whatever good happened here was because of the idealism, generosity, patience and altruism of the artists that participated, and the willingness of everyone to set aside their egos and learn from each other for the betterment of our craft. It had nothing to do with an individual or a URL.

[Black Spot]

An unused SB fades into oblivion by not being used or updated. Google won't update it's index for it. I ban spam and the occasional troll. As you have posted no art, joined just to stir, you must be a troll. Bye.

[Black Spot]

twinkledust9000 is also a sockpuppet. Dirty C post as yourself - another one and you're banned. People have the guts to post as yourself.

[JeffX99]

What about the users who have been banned who want to delete their images, threads, posts and content here? Because they are banned they are unable to do so even if they want to. It is their intellectual property. Will you honor and respect the protection of that property by allowing them to remove their history here?

Currently banned users have no way of removing their history here.

There is a long list of users who would prefer to not continue to have this site benefit from their hard work and efforts when they are treated so disrespectfully. The least you can do is allow the content to be removed. If all the banned users removed their sketchbooks and art from the site, it would be a shell of its former self. Maybe that is the reason why.

It's deceptive to ban a user without fair warning and leave their artwork around, giving the illusion that they are still active members who support the community. The new guys wonder why the old guys don't post anymore. Could it be because they CAN'T post anymore? Like half of the Massive Black artists accounts? Your actions are the reasons why half the amazing talent had to leave here to find new homes, because they couldn't log into their own accounts to keep posting.

After so much bad press lately, many of us want no trace of ever being associated with this site, and we would like a way to wipe our history clean here. Every other site provides users a way to do this. Can you provide a way for us to do this?

If you can't do it, you should add something to the sign up form which flashes a big warning sign that says:

Semi-valid point that I think deserves to be looked at. In bold regarding their "intellectual property"...be more careful with it then. You (generic you not personal) have to have awareness regarding your own IP and where you distribute it. And what type of IP are you referring to Thomas? If it is designs, images, etc. CA (or anyone else) can't use it anyway as it is well protected...if it is more like tips, tutorials, wisdom one might share that they may want to use in say future books, magazine articles, blogs, etc. then that's where I say you should consider whether you want to share that with a community for free. If you decide, "yeah" then good deal...it stays there and you help a bunch of other seekers as well as the community where said wisdom is posted. For as long as they want it to be there. Might be kind of irritating if things go fubar but oh well...that's a risk that is part of the equation.

On the whole witch-hunt aspect of this unpleasantness...witch-hunts can happen for all kinds of reasons, real or not. I would hope no one here would ever have to be on the defensive side of one - and I would stand behind you if you were. Right or wrong in fact, because I would rather live in a world where there is legal recourse and arbitration if the situation requires rather than mob rule (read The Oxbow Incident if interested). I just think it's a bit difficult to walk into a bar three years after a big brawl and know which SOB you should hit, especially when no one has come at you.

[Black Spot]

On the upload button there is the option to identify yourself with whatever is uploaded as the copyright holder. If it's not used because user can't be bothered - tough. I don't use it, because I still produce shit. If I paint something nice one day, I will.

[Dirty C]

Hi there

I was just told by somebody that I've been identified as Twinkledust 9000. Well, as clever as looking at an ip log is, I'm afraid you've got the wrong chap. If you keep looking, you're going to find a bunch of IPs most likely, and if your logs tell you anything at all, you'll notice that none of the posts came from my address. Yes, I'm a network engineer, and yes I have access to VPN tech. But, it wasn't me.

So here's the deal. Twinkledust was created about six years ago by some enterprising and brilliant first-generation atelier students as a fun lure for a certain creepy admin
who was making the girls' forum decidedly unpalatable for some of our friends. We grabbed some random pictures of some lascivious teenage girl as bait to create the
account, and posted all of about two times before not only the aforementioned admin, but also Jason and some other parties messaged us privately and granted us all the access we had ever dreamed of. You know in Marvel history when Reed Richards got hold of the Cosmic Cube, and after scaring Galactus off, was so terrified of its power, he realized it must be hidden forever? Like that. We stopped using it. The PMs were pretty funny though.

Till this day, the true existence of Twinkledust's personality was known only to students of the one, true, first atelier, though I believe it spread a bit further. It was
used every now and then for a laugh or to right some wrong, never by the same person twice. BTW, the reason you haven't heard from me personally in so long is that
none of the original atelier students come here since the place was shut down to make money for TAD instead of Carl who built the whole thing off his own back,
and was then instantly mismanaged into closure.

So here's the thing. The reason you'll see me logged in as twinkledust (her "real" name's Candy btw lol) is that I was logging in to find out who it was. I still don't
know. I've been told that successive students and others from the atelier know the username and password, and it could be any one of as many as a few dozen
people. As soon as she started posting, text messages started flying around as everyone tried to figure out who was doing it. I still don't actually know, but I suspect
strongly that it was someone with a very genuine axe to grind. None of this behaviour spelled out by Brad is news to me, as I've been a close observer of the problems
my friends encountered working directly with him. As I've said elsewhere, I don't believe that Jason is terribly by commission, but the road to hell is, as they say,
paved with good intentions. And other people's hard work and money.

[Black Spot]

Thanks for that. Fun read. Still stands though - apologise to the students for spoiling their fun.

[Carl Dobsky]

I know that some of you may think that Dirty's story sounds ridiculous but I'm going to back him up on this. I remember it happening. When certain innuendos were made to the account they all decided the best thing to do was back away from it.

Black Spot. If you feel like verifying it, go through the old PM's on the account. I've seen them. Hopefully they are still there.

[Dirty C]

I know that some of you may think that Dirty's story sounds ridiculous but I'm going to back him up on this. I remember it happening. When certain innuendos were made to the account they all decided the best thing to do was back away from it.

Black Spot. If you feel like verifying it, go through the old PM's on the account. I've seen them. Hopefully they are still there.

They may only be funny if you had knowledge of the people involved's lifestyles, but to us they sure as hell were

[Black Spot]

okay, but no art, no say

[Black Spot]

I don't want to read PM's that just not on

[Carl Dobsky]

I guess I would also like to make an announcement to the community.

I am one of the artists that had not been paid in full for the downloads I made. I do not know the particulars of Brad Rigney's case, but it sounds similar to mine. In 2011, I tried to get paid for the balance that remained or to have the distribution canceled. This occurred while Mr. Manley was president of TAD. The request I made was refused.

I do not wish to level allegations at TAD. At this moment, John English has graciously reached out to me to let me know that he is doing his best to rectify the situation.

Beyond that all I would like to say is that people should listen closely to much of what was in Snorkes post.

[Arshes Nei]

Hi Carl and Dirty, do you mind if I hijack the account you are mentioning? I don't rifle through personal PMs of other members unless I'm in the account itself with PERMISSION from the user. I just don't believe in PM snooping.

Also Carl thank you for mentioning that. I know everyone was focused on Brad but I wanted to know if others were getting paid.

[Dirty C]

Go for it.

[Arshes Nei]

I just want to verify the story but I have a feeling I already know what was going on.

[jcpahl]

So with that said...I have only this message for C G H U B ---I don't care who you are. We will not be openly sending our traffic to support you.

Thanks for the explanation regarding the word-filter censoring CG-Hub, Jason. I don't think I'm the only one here who has found it disturbing that that word cannot be posted. It's good to hear that it's not just an arbitrary attempt to stifle a perceived competitor, which is what I, and I think a lot of people, have naturally assumed in lieu of any other explanation.

Ironically, if the people who run CG-Hub are as slimy as that story indicates, it may be that censoring their name on CA is the nicest thing you could do for them. Everyone involved in the online art community enough to visit ConceptArt.org already knows about CG-Hub, so that word-ban is not significantly hurting CG-Hub's owners. But how many people in this thread alone have talked about leaving CA for alternative sites like CG-Hub because of the heavy-handed tactics here, of which that word-ban is an oft-cited example?

You mentioned that one of your goals is to double CA's traffic this year (fuck yeah). If it's not too presumptuous of me, I suggest lifting that word-filter as a step toward that. People haven't been drifting away from CA because there are better art communities out there; people have been leaving because artists hate feeling like they can't express themselves freely. Censorship is a poison pill. And it doesn't work on the Internet anyway.

[Jason Manley]

Regarding Carl's, that one I am personally responsible for making that decision and I will clarify that right now. Carl you know as well as I do that last we spoke you had caused and left me with many thousands in damages to the facilities at the former Atelier (of which TAD paid for you), and that I told you if you paid for what you did that things would be square, or you could use the royalties to slowly pay back the damages that you alone were responsible for. To date I still believe there is a difference owed, which I hope you will take up with Mr. English.

[Carl Dobsky]

Mr. Manley,

Your accusations against me are false. I am telling you this now just like I told you 2 years ago. You had no right to withhold payment from me.

[Jason Manley]

Carl you are who damaged the facilities and we got stuck with the bill. That is fact. If posting the emails from the former building owner and the damages documents are helpful I am happy to do so. We are going to have to agree to disagree. If Mr. English wishes to see TAD take that loss then that is his decision and his decision alone.

[Fallenangel]

I do not know the law good enough to comment on the legal part of this,
but why didn't you pay Carl and then held him responsible by other legal means for the supposed damage he caused?
Were you allowed (on the basis of the contract that you had with him) to withhold payments from him to compensate for damaged facilities?

Cheers,
Alex.

[Carl Dobsky]

No Jason. That is not true. All build out of the school was authorized. You even brought clients there to show them how wonderful the school was and were fully aware of the situation. When you tok over the space for TAD, you made no complaints about the state of things. If there was any damage, it was not because of anything I wrongfully did. TAD used the space for months after I was gone. Any damage could easily have come from students at the pod who were obviously disgruntled .

The accusation is groundless. If you are going to make such an allegation then you need to prove how I did this. This is going to be difficult since you yourself were aware of the necessary build out to make the school run from the very beginning.

And furthermore, MassiveBlack was the lease holder, not ComceptArt.org. You even had to get Chris Hatala to switch the lease over to you when TAD started.

[Carl Dobsky]

It is my belief that this accusation is just your way of being vindictive over the way the negotiations broke down with MB and TAD. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt Jason but taking it out on me is not going to change that situation.

I even stayed on to help get the SF pod going because you promised you would chill put on everyone. Instead you threatened to sue people at MB over not going along with the whole TAD transition saying they had caused all this damage to your company.

[Jason Manley]

Please do understand that it has nothing to do with feelings Carl. I am actually long over that. MB and I made peace best we could and I have since moved on and so have they I hope. I am actually not even upset with you anymore in the slightest. I thought about ringing you in SF a couple weeks ago to take you for beers and at least find some sort of closure but wasn't sure if I'd just make your day worse by doing so.

I was in the middle of making a post about the sock puppet stuff as Twinkledust herself, as if she was a collector of both our works, and to ask people to please not do that, when I saw your post and felt like I needed to respond. In all honesty I wish things would have gone better between us back then as I miss having you as a friend and colleague. I do regret the way things turned out between us, and for what it is worth, I am sorry for how things went.


Jason

[paperX]

I'm just gonna leave this here Jason:

...folks are going to have to realize that writing that someone stole something when they did not is called libel. Saying they did is called slander. Both can be defamation. All three are against the law.

PS: It's nice that you finally uncensored CGHUB, CGTalk, and Gnomon. How about doing the same for S A F E H O U S E atelier?

[Carl Dobsky]

Jason,

I wish I could believe that but I'm sorry to say I don't. The vehemence with which you attacked both myself and members of MassiveBlack was so strong that I do not think any of us in San Francisco will be able to forget it. To this day, you still make accusations about the situation and have never had the self-reflection to admit the wrong you have caused.

All I can do is repeat that your accusations are false and that you had no right to refuse to pay me.

It is clear that this is not the place to find resolution to the problem nor are you the person who will deal with it proper. At this point, I will speak to John English at TAD who has shown exemplary professionalism in the matter so far.