The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[creeptool]

i just want to know what did i do to deserve this big red idiot thing..there where people with way more idiot post then me..i fill this was a kangaroo court judgment.

[skullsquid]

That title is looking a little small...

[Craig D]

It's something to do with grammar and spelling maybe?

[creeptool]

That title is looking a little small...

stop it..you know it was a bad decision especially when everyone was as bad are more worse then me .

[Black Spot]

You're the light relief. It'll flash next.

[Havok Reed]

i just want to know what did i do to deserve this big red idiot thing..there where people with way more idiot post then me..i fill this was a kangaroo court judgment.

lmao. Well for one, your sentences don't make sense and are quite comical to read. Misspelled words, improper use of punctuation, and in some cases, completely oblivious of the topic at hand.

[creeptool]

It's something to do with grammar and spelling maybe?

ca forum like to make fun of people with learning disabilities? not that i do but if i did you think that's right?

[Black Spot]

Nope. You weren't the only one, but the other one was an obnoxious sockpuppet and got banned - you're lucky. If you stop posting for 24 hours, I might graciously remove it.

[IanLlanas]

I'm totally depressed...

I have a question that I don't think anyone's brought up yet but I feel is important to ask.
I totally understand the frustration and anger that Brad was/is going through and I know why he did it. I've been backed into a corner by clients before and have had to go through extreme measures to get paid, and I'm sure that he felt he had no other recourse.

The question is: Was it ethical/professional to post "CA.Org/TAD Are Stealing Artist Royalties"?

From the standpoint that the ends justify the means, he did get paid, sure. But the fallout?! Damn.
There are a lot of amazing and admirable people associated with those names and will be unjustly affected by this.
There's also the possibility that clients may be reluctant to hire Brad in the future regardless of how awesome he is.

Unfortunately, I think that the whole truth will never come out of this whole fiasco. It will probably all get blamed on a clerical/bureaucratic error. Too bad, it's hard enough trusting anyone these days.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not judging Brad. He seems like a really great guy; big hearted, hard working, dedicated family man. It sucks that this came down to this.

[vineris]

i just want to know what did i do to deserve this big red idiot thing..there where people with way more idiot post then me..i fill this was a kangaroo court judgment.

What you did was repeatedly demonstrate that you care about nothing and nobody but yourself and what you can get out of other people. But the dumbest thing is that you want free teaching and crits and a place for beginners to learn... but you don't seem to connect this to the fact that someone has to give their free time up in order to teach. So a pro who gets ripped off, and has to work more hours to make up the shortage of money doesn't have the spare time to hang around here giving crits, or time to go to conventions and help people there, or make free videos, or any of dozens of things you might benefit from. So not only are you a selfish fuck, but you are ignorant of how selfishness hurts you and everybody else in the long run. Watching you post is like watching a man punch himself in the nuts and then complain about it.

There are a lot of amazing and admirable people associated with those names and will be unjustly affected by this.

Yeah, but blaming the victim is not the right thing to do. It sounds like he tried to resolve this without drama first, and it wasn't resolved. Let's look at this like artists. When there's a mistake in a piece of art, it drags the whole portfolio down. You don't ask people who look at the portfolio to keep quiet about the mistake. You fix it. And then you don't make it again, because it will only reflect badly on you. We wouldn't put up with this in art, why should we in business?

[fersteger2]

Cool, I just read all this ha. It's like Texas Justice in the art industry. Like a daytime soap for freelance artists. Good times. Someone check out my sketchbook if you're bored. It's all very interesting seeing a bit behind the scenes how owning a business or multiple businesses and how when different people with different goals contractually get together, over time as things do or don't work out things always screw up. It's like a business seminar or something. Good bye to people who are leaving, I'll miss your avatar pics more than anything!

[Black Spot]

It will probably all get blamed on a clerical/bureaucratic error.

I deal with a lot of companies that have just started and are too busy to make sure the paperwork is all up to date. People think computers do all the work but it's more like garbage in, garbage out. I deal with messes that other people can't and see a lot of it.

[Saracen]

This thread is hugely embarrassing. The inmates are running the asylum. If you care at all about this community, please stop typing now and move on to something else. All this is doing is making us all look unprofessional and immature, if not directly, then certainly by extension. If I was coming here for the first time and saw this mess, I would close the tab and probably never visit here again.

What happened between BR and JM is none of our business (unless you participated directly, which you probably didnt). I think it was a mistake for both those gentlemen to air their professional dirty laundry on an internet forum in the first place, but it's definitely compounding the awkwardness to have everyone keep picking at it under a microscope.

[fersteger2]

What can you do? It's daytime drama that keeps going into the night time, the internet replacing the television's role of stimulating people with constant distraction into other people's lives.

[sone_one]

ca forum like to make fun of people with learning disabilities? not that i do but if i did you think that's right?

stop it..you know it was a bad decision especially when everyone was as bad are more worse then me .

man you dont learn it... still on meds, or again? this excuse only works every once in a while, you know?...

i agree that theres been posts beeing as bad as yours, but they happened after youve got your title. and by what you said you earned and deserve it. if you dont know what i mean, id ask you to go back to your first few posts and re-read them. if it aint obvious by then... re-read them again but this time ask yourself what made many of us quite angry... if not by then... sleep over it for a few years... and then ask us again.


concerning the topic at hand... i appreciate it if an audit happens and am looking forward to the result. until then (well with in a reasonable timespan here... rather weeks than months) i think we should just wait.

i have my issues with how this forum is run from time to time (as i pointed out on several occassions), and the way things are announced/promised and then without any statement go up in smoke. heavy censoring (editing, thread deletion, banning...), announcements (amsterdam 2, a major site-update for years,...), promises (ca is now going to be better than it ever was, several times, didnt happen.),...
i have my serious issues with all that... but that has absolutely zero to do with this topic and therefore must not influence my stance here. he said he'll disclose all neccessary information, and have an audit. give it time to happen. within reasonable time (as mentioned above)... and i hope jmanley is aware that alot of eyes observe this now and that we re probably not going to wait forever. that would probably have worse effects than not having said anything at all.

im not sure how long such an undertaking normally takes, but from my gutfeeling id say 2 to absolutely max 5 weeks. people with more experience with that please add your input here as im pretty much clueless.

anyway as others have already said... lets keep this civil and serious please... if you want to have a cock fight, take any comunication means neccessary, but this thread. its too serious to be rediculed by some premature behaviour. and its not as important if its about jmanley or anyone else... its important because 1) this things have to be set straight, and 2) its about time people active in this business, unite and stand up against business models that exploit the contractor. not to sound all cheesy and romantic, but thats basically how each and every union came to life.

[alesoun]

Saracen, you may or may not realise it, but this is being discussed in many other places. There would be something extremely wrong if it wasn't being discussed here and, if you had read every post on this thread you would see that what happened is forum members' business. It's not a case of "the inmates running the asylum", more members of a community concerned about how the community's reputation (and, by association, their own) is affected by what has happened

People are waiting patientlyto see what Jason says, but it's not in human nature to wait silently.

[sone_one]

This thread is hugely embarrassing. The inmates are running the asylum. If you care at all about this community, please stop typing now and move on to something else. All this is doing is making us all look unprofessional and immature, if not directly, then certainly by extension. If I was coming here for the first time and saw this mess, I would close the tab and probably never visit here again.

What happened between BR and JM is none of our business (unless you participated directly, which you probably didnt). I think it was a mistake for both those gentlemen to air their professional dirty laundry on an internet forum in the first place, but it's definitely compounding the awkwardness to have everyone keep picking at it under a microscope.

seriously... its not like you trying to insinuate. anyone saying anything has a bad effect on your reputation because you use the same forum? heres your solution... pull the ethernet plug out of your computer and stay away from the internet. do you aswell think that someone behaving badly that wears the same shoes as you do, drags down your credibility? grow up.

[isra-ac]

Hi everyone,

sorry for interrupting, I'd prefer to be drawing and I'm not very active here, but still wanted to write because beyond CA, CD, CGHUB or any other website this is part of the art community and industry, and that is all of us. I knew about Brad's post since very early after he posted it, but I just spend some hours now reading all these pages because I think it's good to know what's going on.

The workshop in London has been one of the topics on the table. I was to the MB Workshop 2011 in SF when I was a 26 years old lost guy who just started and I can confirm that changed my life immensely. I don't remember how many times people asked me there for my CA nickname but I was no one. I had the opportunity to meet and talk artists from all different levels from people starting to professionals I felt inspired by. One of them wasn't even supposed to be there, but helped me to calm down that fear to professionals as unaccessible Gods for me simple mortal hehe

I have blamed on myself for missing the golden age of this site. If I wasn't so weak back in the day when I once gave up in my situation when I was 18 I could have been here with all the people now I look at and want to be like. But the reality is in 2011 the only site I was in was DA because I was scared of the other places for believing I wasn't good enough after I quit my last job.

I feel sorry for all the people who was excited and going to London and cancelled it (I have some friends in that situation) but I understand it and I must recognize now I'm kinda happy I didn't have the money for the ticket. But for those who still go, as some mentioned, do your best to take profit of it when you meet those people who inspire you. I also imagine some people attending TAD trying to just learn or teach and now seeing them somehow related to this case, a not very comfortable situation.

After the SFWorkshop I started working harder, joined some communities, even made my sketchbook here, though that took me a little bit longer, because the community I've been most active at has been the Crimson Daggers, this is just a fact not promotion ,or even Facebook because I use it only for art purposes and it's somehow a community for me too, and it's been such a great experience I must say. I believe some people feel the same way but with these forums that's why they are disappointed or defensive, but what happened related to Brad's post is seriously important and something to keep in mind. Makes me sad the attitude of a few people, making fun of others, being disrespectful or acting like this has nothing at all to do with them but others already put the things in the right place so I won't go more on that. I've heard a lot of things about this place, good and bad but if there's something I tried to be these days as I usually do is to be cautious to not talk about things I don't know.

Unfortunately payment or stealing issues are present in any kind of business. Someone mentioned the banks or the insane salaries of some, well, tell me about it in my country nowadays daily topics are corrupts, banks, people asking for transparency to the politics, or the multimillionaire salaries of some football players or coachers. The point is, is good to be aware of these to not go blind thinking this is a happy wonderful world. I have someone very close to me (as I'm sure a lot of you have) who's not been paid by the company she works for for a few months already and the situation is unclear. If anybody wanted to work for that company is right to warn them about the possibility of not being paid.

I was using the site only for exposure and some networking (it's always a pleasure to meet new artists) so If I left this site nobody would miss me. I will still stay together the people I trust but I'm looking forward to read more information about this case for knowledge.

[Main Loop]

I actually know how to change the thread title, so no worries there Arshes Nei.
But I wanted to change it only if people want to, not that people shout up again ala "Ohhh, it got changed again, dramaaaa".

Here's why I think it should be changed back: It wasn't changed anywhere else on the internet. Every other place, both of Cryptcrawler's journal entries have their own discussions. It just doesn't look right to have changes in a thread where a lot of the negativity is focused on. It arouses suspicion needlessly.

[sone_one]

It arouses suspicion needlessly.

exactly... its just poor behaviour and dumb... all it does is people not trusting anything... did posts get edited? are posts gone? ... because you know.. the threadtitle changed. man, why not just leave it the way its been?

gnah i would like to know who edited it, because theres a complete lack of empathy.

[JeffX99]

Here's why I think it should be changed back: It wasn't changed anywhere else on the internet. Every other place, both of Cryptcrawler's journal entries have their own discussions. It just doesn't look right to have changes in a thread where a lot of the negativity is focused on. It arouses suspicion needlessly.

I would agree with that to some extent...but actually I think Nemome's title is a solid compromise as it maintains the question but also reflects the current situation - that Brad was paid. Just two cents man.

BTW - nice work, plus I appreciate a few of you guys keeping pretty level heads, even when raising challenging issues. Wish you guys hung out here more.

[IanLlanas]

Yeah, but blaming the victim is not the right thing to do.

That wasn't my intention.

[Nemome]

The thread title got changed by myself now so everyone knows who changed it.

It's the old title, with the small addition that Brad got paid today.
In my opinion that's the best solution for both parts. It keeps the old one but also shows that things are changing and the problem is being looked at.
If anyone doesn't agree with this solution, then feel free to hit me up in this thread or via PM.

Thanks everyone,
Nemome~

[Raoul Duke]

My opinion is that Jason is trying to come clean and you guys won't accept it because the result is the same. He was not stealing anybody's money, but he did design a system that hid everybody's money. Which isn't as malicious, but achieves the same result. I still hold him accountable for manufacturing a run around. He shouldn't have put anybody in the position of seeking legal action to get what's theirs.

The CA store should have operated like any other store front. Once payments are cleared, royalties are deposited within a regular period. No ifs ands or buts.

SCARECROW IS A BITCH! Fight like a man.

[skullsquid]

SCARECROW IS A BITCH! Fight like a man.

Can you stop baiting? It's a little unnecessary.

[Andantonius]

Wow, what a pointless, unrelated pissing match we have on the last few pages. Can we stay on-topic please? Let the trolls feed themselves.

I have edited my earlier posts and removed the 'jump ship' mentality after a note I received from Jason. While I am still eagerly awaiting the outcome of all this and have not necessarily 'changed my mind', the truth of the matter is that no one in this thread has any factual information about these proceedings. Some of my statements were certainly made on assumptions and biases and may have been unnecessarily damaging.

As I mentioned before, I do not, nor have I ever believed that Jason is some evil overlord trying to steal from and squeeze the life out of the artists who foolishly get involved with him. I have known him to be careless, yes, dismissive at times, and often he has plans that may not be ideal for the rest of the people involved in them, but not outright malicious, and if I gave that impression I apologize.

To boil it down, here's my take on the issues at hand:

-Did Brad and any other artist involved with CA/TAD downloads get paid the money they were contractually promised?
-This has partly been answered, Brad has been paid. I hope the others who have stepped forward, and those who have not, are paid as well. I have confidence that John English will do the right thing to rectify this situation, regardless of who's responsibility it was or is. I have full confidence in his character.

-Who's fault was it in the first place, and was it a careless business error or was it deliberate withholding of the funds in question?
-Though we're all on the edge of our seats about this, in the end this is none of our business. We are here to support Brad and other artists getting stiffed by companies in the industry that take advantage of our hard work all too often. Ultimately this matter is between Brad and whoever legally handles the payment for the downloads, and I respect Jason for his (promised) transparency that he does not owe any of us. On this point, we'll wait and see what happens.

-How will this damage the reputations of those involved? CA.O, TAD, Jason, John English, etc
-Hopefully the statement provided soon will prove that the former scenario of the 2nd issue is the truth, that all of this is due to careless business and was not deliberately malicious. Again, none of the statements provided by Brad, Jason, John or anyone else are proof of what transpired, which again is none of our business at this point, but will hopefully be revealed for the good of the community. If it was a mistake, that does not excuse it or make it 'ok' by any means, but mistakes do happen and it has now been (at least partially) dealt with: Brad has been paid and hopefully the other artists will be paid soon. If it was deliberate breach of contract for whatever reason, hopefully the offending party will be dealt with swiftly and be removed from any position that would allow them to repeat their actions in the future.

-What does this mean for the community at CA.O?
-Obviously this has done a notable amount of damage, a number of veterans have left and a number of newcomers are now concerned about being here. I haven't been especially active here so I won't say much other than hopefully the statements to come will clear up any misinformation and whatever the results may be will ultimately lead to a quality community and a healthy environment to foster the growth of artists.


In the end, our main goal is to solve the problem, which has been done. Brad has his money and 'justice is served'. Now, for the good of the community, obviously people are interested to know who is at fault to prevent this happening in the future, but that problem must be resolved with factual information, not assumptions. I apologize for my earlier assumptions, and await the final resolution of this conflict, hopefully for the good of everyone involved.

-Jon Neimeister

[Wingal]

exactly... its just poor behaviour and dumb... all it does is people not trusting anything... did posts get edited? are posts gone? ... because you know.. the threadtitle changed. man, why not just leave it the way its been?

gnah i would like to know who edited it,

Jason did. He said he didnt want it to drag the site into the mud more. The post also says when people edit the title, for future reference.

[Nemome]

Jason did change the thread title, for people being curious about who changed it.
I hope he won't be mad that I changed it to something different again, but this new title is the best choice for everyone I think. It doesn't hide what happened but it also doesn't hide what has been reached so far.

Beside of that I can also tell you guys that non of the posts have been editet or deleted.
I looked through everything and beside of the title nothing has been changed - so there is nothing to worry about.

[Fallenangel]

I think you need to re-read what Jason posted - I moved the bold to highlight the offer for anyone here to nominate a lawyer.

I am a senior auditor at a firm of Chartered Accountants and Registered Auditors - you have to understand that any registered auditor although they are appointed have a duty to maintain impartiality or they will lose their registration. Also they are duty bound not to accept if there is a conflict of interest - being paid to do their job is not a conflict of interest. I pushed for this hard because this type of report has to be impartial in reporting its statement.

First of all, I read it few times before i posted my own comment...

Secondly,
A. I won't address your "... duty... he has to be..." statements, simply because i am not claiming to be an expert in US law, and the allowed/not allowed practices.
However, a report that was commissioned and payed for by one of the involved parties in a dispute, is not a valid technique in this case imo, even if it is common or legally valid.

B. You miss the point here, let us assume that the person who makes the report is indeed unbiased...etc.
The thing that does matter here is what information the person who makes the report has to work with, and as far as Jason's post goes and as far as i understand it, he is the only one who provides the facts for it.
Would it be based on Brad's information too?
Would other artists information/claims get addressed?
Would TAD provide the financial information and the involved correspondence?
Would the conclusions of this report result in any legal complications for the involved parties besides Jason - fines, jail..etc?
How long would it take - a week, month...more...? People would forget about this issue in a matter of few weeks.

We do not know a thing about how this would work, who would/would not be represented and etc....
If the above questions would not be addressed in the report it would indeed be biased or even useless.


Over this report,
I would prefer to see Jason, Brad, TAD representatives (+ some other artists involved) giving a 30-40 minutes of their time to do a livestream/skype video where they would calmly and thoroughly explain the following; what happened, why it happened, how young artists can avoid getting in the same situation.
This, and not a legal report, in my opinion would explain things much better, especially to younger audience.

Cheers,
Fallen.

[IanLlanas]

The questions I'm trying to ask are
"was that the best course of action?"
"would you or I do the same thing?"
"if we did would we regret it?"
"is this how we get things done now?"

Cause we are all faced with similar situations all the time.