The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[Henchman 21]

theres plenty of other workshops run by people with much better track records, with way more instructors, that are much cheaper to attend.

its great you want to give back to kids and do this stuff, i dont think anyone would argue that, but you need to stop acting like jasons workshop is the only thing out there. sure, its gonna be nice for people in england and close by to have something accessible to them this time around, but its not the only recurring workshop or event. ive been to plenty.

another fun thing to point out-

the last time i went to a workshop jason was in charge of, there was a massive open bar and live music opening night, then a private party for pros and instructors in a hotel he had comped for them.

i wonder how much of my 600 dollars i paid to attend went towards his paying for shit that had nothing to do with my art, education, or learning- and in the case of the private party- actually SEPARATED me from the people i had paid to come see?

other people who throw these events dont do these kinds of things. jasons notorious for it.

[Pilgrim1099]

Perhaps that in order for CA to maintain damage control, I do understand Mr. Manley had to step away from his TAD duties in order to focus on his work with the CA site, but if he were to step off from CA to privately resolve the issue(s) with Cryptcrawler and other uncompensated artists in a peaceful and professional manner which may be helpful, and he could ask someone to run CA for him temporarily for a while until things smooth out.

I still feel bad for what happened to Cryptcrawler.

[Velocity Kendall]

Fair enough.

One other thing, my playing devils advocate does not mean I would hesitate for a second to walk IF it was shown there had been theft. But I require more substantial evidence than a single angry rant before ditching someting I think is important. Fair?

[Craig D]

Velocity
If almost everyone who reads your posts comes to the conclusion that you are saying Brad doesn't
deserve any more money (and I'm not saying thats what you said), then you have to maybe wonder if
maybe you arent communicating very well.

Your pulling out imaginary numbers (because none of us knows them for sure) does not help.

[Henchman 21]

ok velocity, thats fair. one angry dude isnt much. how about 2? andrew came forward. how about 3? aurelie came forward.

[Velocity Kendall]

Velocity
If almost everyone who reads your posts comes to the conclusion that you are saying Brad doesn't
deserve any more money (and I'm not saying thats what you said), then you have to maybe wonder if
maybe you arent communicating very well.

Please highlight where I somehow said Brad doesnt deserve his money. Ian Barker continually accused me of this and I think people read his posts without reading mine. I appreciate its easier to just get angry without thinking first, but please use your heads and dont just go mental.

To quote myself

All Im saying is, perspective.. I totally sympathise with Brad, Ive worked for people in international property who just dont pay and vanish, meaning I cant pay my rent. I know that pain. Theyre different by the way from companies that are just slow to pay, but do in the end. As an artist you need to have multiple clients so when one lot are slow, others are still paying, thats what I meant by "deal with it" in my previous post. Its a fact of being an artist and pretend it inst at your peril. So Ian please stop saying I think its OK that artists dont get paid. OK?

If id been Brad, ive been furious I was broke when money owed to me, even a few hundred dollars, wasnt being paid. Its a daily reality So I get it, believe me.
Brads a killer artist, one of the best, and damn well deserves every penny hes owed, same as we all do. I just think causing this huge ruckus was excessive, and under analysis the picture isnt as black and white as people seem to feel it is.

My overall impression is, he was in the right, but dealt with it poorly.

[Octave13]

(big thanks to andrew for coming forward, i hope others do so the rest of the people on the fence realize this is truly systemic and ongoing, and not an isolated event).

Not sure why you're thanking him, did you read what he actually said?

Let's tie a main loop around Jason's neck and stab him with a crimson dagger and watch him crawl into his own crypt.

Passive aggression directed at specific individuals, feigning impartiality toward Jason (yet defending him the entire time,) and calling everyone here pirates. He wasn't coming forward about anything.

[Henchman 21]

octave, despite the passive agressive puns and japes, he still said jason never paid him and that he made 15 years of mistakes. dont discredit someone of his stature admitting to that just because he also decided to hate on others too.

[Octave13]

Not trying to discredit him, I'm just saying I doubt he's on board with you there.

[Henchman 21]

he was trying to highlight a bigger issue. he said several times jason was wrong, but he also wanted to hilite the larger issue of the torrenting to offer some perspective. piracy is a big issue, but its not the issue this thread was about, so im not going to get into it.

regardless, andrew still admitted that jason was a bad business man, that he hadnt been paid for his downloads, etc.

his point was that were all very mad at jason for doing this to brad, but not mad at others for doing it to people via online theft. he was trying to hilite and make a joke out of how publically mad we are now that the issue has a figurehead to be mad at, but in no way was he also defending jason. he made that very clear.

[Velocity Kendall]

"he was trying to hilite and make a joke out of how publically mad we are now that the issue has a figurehead to be mad at,"

I agree, I think thats an astute observation. I think as artists we all feel we are treated like shit by our clients, which is why this hit such a nerve. Becaused we;ve all been there.
I am NOT defending these fuckers who take us for a ride every day of our working lives.
Just this week I told one of mine I felt earning basically McDonalds money forn designing fully detailed cars was unacceptable, and he replied after several days saying he'd found someone in China who would do the work cheaper. I bit my tongue and said good luck and goodbye. So thats me AND someone in China being fucked over. Great.

My point being we are all angry. And rightly so. But going insane and trashing CA just because JM is associated with it, or TAD because he used to be is not going to help.

Personally, I think we need a union.

Industrial Workers of the World
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industr...s_of_the_World

What do you think?


"The few own the many because they possess the means of livelihood of all ... The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor. The majority of mankind are working people. So long as their fair demands - the ownership and control of their livelihoods - are set at naught, we can have neither men's rights nor women's rights. The majority of mankind is ground down by industrial oppression in order that the small remnant may live in ease."
— Helen Keller, IWW member, 1911

[Henchman 21]

velocity, im still waiting for an answer as to how many people need to come forward before youre swayed. you said one wasnt enough, i highlighted 3. how many more do we need before youll get the picture?

[Velocity Kendall]

Hmm, that does add weight I admit. But honestly, vague anonymous accounts arnt solid. The thing to remove reasonable doubt would be a spreadsheet showing amount owed and amount paid. The artists all have this. What if they didnt make much money because peolpe didnt buy the videos? Can you rule that out?

And further, do you see thus that the picture might be more complicated than the appealingly simple idea of evil fatcat JM living large off poor artists backs? I mean, yes its a great image, and Im sorry people are so angry at me for spoiling their fun, but I frankly doubt things are that simple.

[Craig D]

What if they didnt make much money because peolpe didnt buy the videos? Can you rule that out?

That is SO not the issue. Do you read before you post?

[Henchman 21]

why are you so consistently tied to the issue of amounts. if aurelie made 10 bucks and jason gave her 5, thats bad. the higher it gets, the worse it is, but its always bad and its always wrong. are you seriously naive enough to discredit 3 totally different people who all come forward about the same issue (theft) in regards to the same person (jason) just because their statements to the community arent enough for you to go on?

theres a line in things like this where they end up crossing possible confidentiality agreements in their contracts, opening themselves up to legal problems. they can only share so much with you, so why isnt their word enough?

i know at least 3 more people whove been affected by this who i cant name and who cant come forward for that exact reason i just stated. you need to stop being so ignorant and adamantly against seeing common sense. lots of people bought all these videos, and the artists either didnt receive money or it was only a fraction of what they were owed.

as for ruling it out, i think its been pretty much ruled out already. when 3 seperate people in 3 separate locations doing 3 different things with their careers all share a common complaint with a common source, it stops being a coincidence. please, please, please stop giving the benefit of the doubt just cause you want spreadsheets and photos and dna testing. the longer you resist the obvious truth of it, the less credit your actual good arguments (about the kids and the workshops and the community) will receive.

[Velocity Kendall]

That is SO not the issue. Do you read before you post?

Hmm, well, if the videos dont break even on their production costs, there are no cheques. So it is isnt it. The videos cost between 3 and 5000 to produce, so lots of people needed to buy them before they broke even and started paying out.

theres a line in things like this where they end up crossing possible confidentiality agreements in their contracts, opening themselves up to legal problems. they can only share so much with you, so why isnt their word enough?

If a client doesn't pay, they've voided the terms of the contract, so why are these people afraid of legal repercussions?

please stop giving the benefit of the doubt just cause you want spreadsheets and photos and dna testing. the longer you resist the obvious truth of it, the less credit your actual good arguments (about the kids and the workshops and the community) will receive.

please dont try to bully me just because I dont take random people words for something rather than actual evidence. Im not at all keen on your brand of mob justice. Its ugly.

Im happy to sit back and let this play out, waiting for more evidence.

[scarecrow7]

If I was part of the London panel I would also play the devils advocate.

[Velocity Kendall]

"If I was part of the London panel I would also play the devils advocate."

Indeed! I dearly want the event to go ahead, I think it could be great. I was really looking forward to getting down there, meeting everyone, getting the youngsters excited about art, doin paintovers. If thats toast Ill be sad.

OK Henchman PMed me and I have to say I was extremely impressed with his style and clarity of his thoughts and the fact that he reached out, so Im happy to bow out at this point.
Up to now Ive tried to encourage people to consider the background of the situation and generally not destroy good things like CA and the Workshop and TAD based on some ugly business dealings.
I stand by that imperative. But theres a lot of the story i dont know and maybe Ive spoken out of turn.
I apologise.

This civil war, turning us against one another has been terrible. I guess I just dont like everyone picking on a single person. it seems severe. thats the core of it for me I guess.
Speculating on Brads earnings from the videos was in poor taste, and so I apologise to all of you, especially Brad. I assure you it wasnt simply to piss people off, but actually focus peoples attentions complexity of the issues.
I also said some harsh stuff about Crimson Daggers which was bullshit on my part.
I live in hope that the real reasons behind this were just cash-flow and bureaucracy not malign intent. maybe im a sucker. i worry about that but.. I will be deeply disappointed if this is shown conclusively to have been the case, but I have hope. And I think TAD is good and not a scam

However I can see that arguing against so many of you is rubbish; I have a lot of time and respect for you guys and hate fighting with you.
And for that reason, Im oot.
Im sorry for getting cross and mean.
Al

[Lulie]

Could all the people who didn't get their money band together to sue, and it wouldn't be as expensive? If most are in America, could even be a class action lawsuit so anyone else who didn't want to step forward before could do so.

Maybe it's still too expensive with travel fees, but something to consider.

[creeptool]

tell the truth most of the massive black dvd's did not worth $50 $60...some videos suck so bad the artist don't deserve payment...theres free youtube vids that dont suck as bad lol.

[shrunkendesigner]

Things are rarely as they seem and there are always so many unseen factors that play in the run up to and an actual event. It is never black and white. It is not unfair to ask for evidence and while, in this case, such evidence can't, for legal reasons, be produced, you can't crucify anyone for their right to reserve judgement until they see something, hear something or witness something more conclusive.

Such an issue needs to be resolved with the parties in question and as I read what everyone has said, the claims put forth carry with them some weight, albeit, still not conclusive. We can speculate and extrapolate all we like, but arguing about it is dividing us. What we need to do is realise that, at best, we have only anecdotal evidence and claims to go on until 100% conclusive evidence comes to light.

We need to think carefully on our actions and what we say.

[Black Spot]

Please don't be cross with Velocity - he only want to come to London because I offered him a free hug.

Also you all must be patient with explanations etc things take time.

If you aren't I'll get perky - you won't like me perky.

[D0ming0]

why are you so consistently tied to the issue of amounts. if aurelie made 10 bucks and jason gave her 5, thats bad. the higher it gets, the worse it is, but its always bad and its always wrong. are you seriously naive enough to discredit 3 totally different people who all come forward about the same issue (theft) in regards to the same person (jason) just because their statements to the community arent enough for you to go on?

This could possibly destroy CA.O, the London event, and TAD. So yes, a smattering of evidence/context of the magnitude of the wrongdoing would be good. It seems to be ok for someone to say THEY/HE STOLE MY MONEY!!! but at the same time say how much because of confidentiality agreements, etc. Contracts I've signs state a lack or payment for services breaks the contract.

And yes, amounts do matter. Not paying any amountCANNOT be excused, but small amounts could be down to incompetence/ misunderstandings/ stupidity. It happens to me (Not in art, in IT) regularly.

Finally, there's like this kicking up..(on Page 12 of comments on brads comment)

Poster: DA is a SCAM. TAD stole art to promote itself.
TAD (Scott-Richeson-TAD) Asks politely for some details because he's in the dark.
Poster: Not my place to say, someone else said it in another forum.

Do I take this poster's word for it? I don't know, maybe it happened, maybe not. But to post an accusation as damaging as that and not be prepared to back it up is not on in my book.

[creeptool]

i think if the guy got payed $5000 and over he should be happy any thing that's under that amount he should be angry...how mutch do you think he deserve? for a video that he's art vid is speed up video with his voice over and most of the time hes talking off topic.

[sone_one]

tell the truth most of the massive black dvd's did not worth $50 $60...some videos suck so bad the artist don't deserve payment...theres free youtube vids that dont suck as bad lol.

if you look back to your posts in this thread in a few years, youll be emberassed. im giving you the benefit of doubt youre young and dont know better, but youre coming off like an idiot.

[edit] woah... your idiocy is faster than i can type...

[skullsquid]

creeptool, please get off the thread...or at least stop posting in it.
I'm not trying to flame you but some of the things you're saying are absolutely... terrible


and wrong.

[Star Eater]

i think if the guy got payed $5000 and over he should be happy any thing that's under that amount he should be angry...how mutch do you think he deserve? for a video that he's art vid is speed up video with his voice over and most of the time hes talking off topic.

I just logged in to ask you to please stop making a complete twat out of yourself. You clearly have no real understanding of either side of what is currently happening. If anything you are only making the situation that much worse for everyone dropping into this thread.

Stop trying so hard to impress everyone. If you want to really impress people here, do it with your artwork.

[Dumb Naked King]

i think if the guy got payed $5000 and over he should be happy any thing that's under that amount he should be angry...how mutch do you think he deserve? for a video that he's art vid is speed up video with his voice over and most of the time hes talking off topic.

Who are you and why do you keep posting nonsensical bullshit?

[creeptool]

ok ok i'll stop.. sorry every one

[Zenith_]

Also you all must be patient with explanations etc things take time.

I can see where you're coming from Blackspot, I feel like but the longer Jason leaves this without addressing it, the worse this whole situation is going to get.
Already it is having an impact on the forums and the London event, which is unfortunate, but I can understand why people would not want to be associated with either, given all that's happened. I love these forums though, it's a shame to see some amazing artists leave over this

Also the longer Mr. Manley goes without explaining his side of the story makes me feel like it's not just a simple matter of "Oh we forgot to pay Rigney. Silly us, we'll get right on it!".

I don't know, this whole situation is uncomfortable. I just hope it doesn't get brushed aside as though nothing has happened

P.S: Please don't get perky with me

i think if the guy got payed $5000 and over he should be happy any thing that's under that amount he should be angry...how mutch do you think he deserve? for a video that he's art vid is speed up video with his voice over and most of the time hes talking off topic.

As much as was agreed upon. You're missing the point though. It's not about the amount, it's the principle of the thing. Brad Rigney didn't just put a few hours into making the piece for the video, he put his lifetime's worth of knowledge into it.