The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[creeptool]

just for every one to know there is no massive black torrent's the only thing that shows up under that name is porn lol

[Ian Barker]

WHO EVER has said its ok not to pay artists for work they've done?

Brad Rigny got tens of thousands of dollars on royalties from his video. Which part of that dont you understand?

So because he's apparently rich (how on earth would you know that?), you're saying it's ok that he didn't get some of the money he was owed, because you're guessing it must not have been that much?

[talmir]

Lets all take a chill pill here An awful lot of assumptions, whining, rumor mongering and arguing is happening based on some extremely limited data.

[Quike Garcia]

Personally I think this discussion right now is like a train without wheels. It's going nowhere.

An employer not paying is a serious issue that can wreck a family's livelyhood quite easy. Been there, it ain't pretty. I don't want anybody to think that I'm against Mr. Rigney for claiming what is rightfully his in his last resort of going public.

That said, I think also that we should give Mr. Manley some room to use this last chance to try to make ammends and right these wrongs. I don't like to blame on evil what can be blamed on ole good stupidity.

[creeptool]

Brad Rigny sad hes kids have to go without the little things in between paychecks... people are acting like he's kids had to go with out food or sothing like that it more like hes kids didin't get in xbox game.

[Velocity Kendall]

you're saying it's ok that he didn't get some of the money he was owed,

Ian, thats the 5th or 6th time youve tried to put those words in my mouth, so Im telling you now and Im telling you straight, stop fucking doing it. Im a freelance artist, I dont think its OK he didnt get some of the money hes owed. OK. Can you concentrate on those words for a moment?
OK.

What I am saying its lets put this in some perspective. The video took a week to make.
So for a weeks work how much did the guy get paid?

"how on earth would you know that?"

Well lets play with some numbers. Do your own sums if you think Im way off. The vid cost about 50bucks originally. Lets say a few hundred people bought it at that price, reasonable? Thats already, what 500 x 50? 25K? Then the price dropped to like $10, so maybe more people bought it; 1500 x 10. 15k. totalling 40k. The real figure might be more or less but that seems in the ballpark. Lets say the video cost 5grand to make, deduct that.

So even if they split the money 50./50 thats still $17500 for a weeks work. not bad. having to fight for every cheque is extremely bad, but thats a lot more money than most of us here make foir a weeks work isnt it? therefore I think a lot of actual poor artists were enraged by this whole thing when in fact the situation wasnt quite what they thought.

now in his DA post he mentions the remainder he was owed was too small to persue a court claim for. Which makes it maybe high hundreds. Still a shit lot of money to be owed, but a small % of the total. See what Im saying? He still got $10000s, and in my view was being rather disingenuous in his DA post, leaving out key details to cause maximum outrage.
Disagree?
if you dispute my figures, well, go to the horses mouth, see what Brad says his numbers were. and how much hes still owed. Maybe im miles off and feel free to point out where you think I might be, im just a guy with a calculator, but Id be interested. And if he is a man of integrity then he would freely share those details.
These arnt pay checks. this isnt like us guys working super hard all month and then not being paid. you do the video once and then get on with other stuff right?

All Im saying is, perspective.. I totally sympathise with Brad, Ive worked for people in international property who just dont pay and vanish, meaning I cant pay my rent. I know that pain. Theyre different by the way from companies that are just slow to pay, but do in the end. As an artist you need to have multiple clients so when one lot are slow, others are still paying, thats what I meant by "deal with it" in my previous post. Its a fact of being an artist and pretend it inst at your peril. So Ian please stop saying I think its OK that artists dont get paid. OK?

[nofu]

I agree with Kendall in that this just screws the people who want/wanted to go to the workshop the most. People paid money, made plans, booked stuff etc, got excited and to just pull out because of something, that can be dealt with on a different level or at a different place (though should be dealt with). Ruining a workshop does this issue no good and, too, is unprofessional.

[CLANLESS]

EDIT: i just want to say one thing - its really a shame that artists on here would become so personally involved in this to the point of disregarding old friendships! come on people, lets remember the good times and go paint some sexy nudes.

[vices]

I read through (almost) all this crap. Someone asked a question and no one has really answered it.

What is the art community outside CA? It's fine to drop URLS like CGSociety or Polycount(lol, my first experience looking at an art forum) but I think a lot of people want to know in more detail about what the art Universe is composed of.

Is ConceptArt like a big old bank? It's too big to fail because it has so much history that no other site does? That would be an amazingly lucky thing for a simple forum to have going for it.

*EDIT*

I guess this thread is the place to talk about that: http://conceptart.org/forums/lounge/...s-general.html

[Sentinel.]

People believe that you think it's ok for artists to not get paid because of the tone you've used when speaking about Brad's right to ask for his due, and because of a core assumption you've repeated here.

Even assuming the figures are correct, that's just what he's OWED, which you admit. You have absolutely no idea how much of that money he has actually seen. He said in his post that any royalty checks he had to fight for, and that they were months and months late from the very beginning before they stopped coming at all. How much did he make for each royalty check? How many total did he receive? I don't know and neither do you, so assuming that he has received the bulk of it and is just whining about a couple of hundred bucks is based on just as little evidence as you think our reactions to his post are. What if he's owed 10 grand? Wouldn't you think that's worth fighting for?

Even successful freelance artists aren't really rich. The argument that you've been making sounds to me (and this is clearly my interpretation, so I could be wrong about your intent) that he should just suck it up because he's already made X amount of money and should be happy with that, because he didn't have to work hard for it. I seriously do not understand this mentality. It's hard enough to make a living at this, and when you are between paychecks, or jobs, and need the money you know that you're OWED you have every right to be upset.

You also realize that the artists had to cover the cost of production for these videos themselves, right? They were fronted the money but had to pay it out of their royalties so they received NOTHING until it was paid back. This man PAID to make a video for you and everyone else on CA. They could have done that themselves and just sold it on their own websites without any of that money being used to support CA, and maybe they should have - they wouldn't be dealing with this.

And for the record, I had bought nearly every download offered by CA, I did everything I could to support this place, not steal from it. I don't know how much they've lost by torrenting, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve what they're owed.

Ian, thats the 5th or 6th time youve tried to put those words in my mouth, so Im telling you now and Im telling you straight, stop fucking doing it. Im a freelance artist, I dont think its OK he didnt get some of the money hes owed. OK. Can you concentrate on those words for a moment?
OK.

What I am saying its lets put this in some perspective. The video took a week to make.
So for a weeks work how much did the guy get paid?

"how on earth would you know that?"

Well lets play with some numbers. Do your own sums if you think Im way off. The vid cost about 50bucks originally. Lets say a few hundred people bought it at that price, reasonable? Thats already, what 500 x 50? 25K? Then the price dropped to like $10, so maybe more people bought it; 1500 x 10. 15k. totalling 40k. The real figure might be more or less but that seems in the ballpark. Lets say the video cost 5grand to make, deduct that.

So even if they split the money 50./50 thats still $17500 for a weeks work. not bad. if you dispute my figures, well, go to the horses mouth, see what Brad says his numbers were. and how much hes still owed. Maybe im miles off, but Id be interested. these arnt pay checks. this isnt like us guys working super hard all month and then not being paid. you do the video once and then get on with other stuff right?

All Im saying is, perspective.. I totally sympathise with Brad, Ive worked for people in international property who just dont pay and vanish, meaning I cant pay my rent. I know that pain. So Ian please stop saying I think its OK that artists dont get paid. OK?

[shrunkendesigner]

Its time to settle down, not turn on each other, remember why we are all here and that we want to continue to support new artists in their journey in this ever changing world. What can be said at this stage, has been said. When more comes to light, the people who want to make an informed decision, will be able to make them and those who choose to stay, whether the serious accusations are true or not, shouldn't be crucified for their decision.

If Conceptart.org becomes a ghost town, then users will find other places to hang out. Nothing in this world is too big to fall and when large institutions go down, the aftermath can be brutal or new life can spring forth from the felled tree. Change is an inevitability and is a scary thing.

We need to now wait and see what else comes to light and hear Jason Manley out. Brad Rigney has aired his side and it is time to listen and make a rational decision based on it.

[Velocity Kendall]

What if he's owed 10 grand? Wouldn't you think that's worth fighting for?

I do indeed. But he didnt sue. Ergo it wasnt a large %.
Ergo he already had recieved a lot of money. If you dispute my logic Id like to hear why.
I was editing my post to include this as you posted your reply.

"People believe that you think it's ok for artists to not get paid because of the tone you've used"

im a freelance artist.. so I think its ok for me not to be paid? bizarre.

"You also realize that the artists had to cover the cost of production for these videos themselves, right?" yes I built that deduction into my figures.

"The argument that you've been making sounds to me (and this is clearly my interpretation, so I could be wrong about your intent) that he should just suck it up because he's already made X amount of money and should be happy with that, because he didn't have to work hard for it."

I absolutely dispute that. Im simply saying I think the full picture is more complex than simply this guy got conned :. all TAD and CA is poison.
If id been Brad, ive been furious I was broke when money owed to me, even a few hundred dollars, wasnt being paid. Its a daily reality So I get it, believe me.
Brads a killer artist, one of the best, and damn well deserves every penny hes owed, same as we all do. I just think causing this huge ruckus was excessive, and under analysis the picture isnt as black and white as people seem to feel it is.


"We need to now wait and see what else comes to light and hear Jason Manley out. Brad Rigney has aired his side and it is time to listen and make a rational decision based on it."

Yes i agree. If it turns out when both sides have shared their details that it really was theft like he says, then I walk.

[Sentinel.]

There are multiple reasons not to sue for an amount even as large as 10,000. The hassle, the cost of lawyers and court, the time out of your schedule to pursue it, which if you are trying to make a living as a freelance artist is at one hell of a premium. Do you know what a decent lawyer costs? I know people who have had to retain them and it's damn expensive, all money out of your pocket, up front. Say he wins, he's spent probably almost as much if not more for that hollow victory. Even if the court costs are covered by the losing party in the judgement, how much time has he lost on his freelance contracts? What if he doesn't even have the capital to pay for a lawyer up front? Good luck finding one pro bono. What if he loses? Then he's out the money owed, plus whatever he had to pay to try and fight for it.

Suing someone is not the simple, obvious answer, even if you think you're guaranteed victory.

[Velocity Kendall]

Small claims court is designed for these kind of disputes and isnt expensive. "Small claims filing usually costs around $10, but the process server gets $25-50."

I suspect the total owed was less than $1000 based on that logic. Like I say, still a lot, and enough to be very angry about, but not quite the apocalyptic screwing over I think people read into it compared to the total.
Im not defending anyone here (except us, the people of CA), Im simply trying to bring some perspective to what until now has been a very heated argument.

[Havok Reed]

Im simply trying to bring some perspective to what until now has been a very heated argument.

That's what I tried to do, but then my words got twisted and thrown out of the perspectives by people. So I stopped trying.

[Sentinel.]

now in his DA post he mentions the remainder he was owed was too small to persue a court claim for. Which makes it maybe high hundreds. Still a shit lot of money to be owed, but a small % of the total. See what Im saying? He still got $10000s, and in my view was being rather disingenuous in his DA post, leaving out key details to cause maximum outrage.
Disagree?

Yes, I do. What he said was this:


"To add insult to injury, mention of legal intervention on behalf of myself to get my money was mocked and ridiculed by Mr. Manley, after he proclaimed that I would not be taking legal action on my own behalf because "the amount" wasn't enough to merit any legal action and that the subject was now closed for discussion."

Nowhere does Brad say himself that the amount is too small to pursue.

[Velocity Kendall]

But he didnt persue it. Tacitly agreeing it was a small sum. Actions speak louder than words.

To be fair if he had persued it through small claims, and won, then that would have been the time for a public statement. And I would have backed him to the hilt.

Im not saying anyone who has an employer turn round and say its too small to sue for should suck it up. They should persue it anyway. Ive done it before and got my money, even after they DDOSd our servers and threatened a preposterous counter claim.
On the other hand, Id be careful about slandering people.

My overall impression is, he was in the right, but dealt with it poorly.

[shrunkendesigner]

What ever is the ultimate truth to this, it is very likely we will never fully know what it is. We can only make a rational choice as to stay or go when Jason has presented his side. We can't really know even when he does, but we can carefully think about it based on what is presented to us. Arguing, speculating and picking apart what each other says isn't going to help. People will want to listen, or they won't. People will have made up their decision the second they read the original article. It is up to you, the individual to decide what you believe and then act in accordance and be ok with your choice.

Speculating about what Brad raked in from his video isn't important. What ever the amount, if there was a contract in place, it should be fulfilled, even if it was only a single cent and if it wasn't, then it needs to be corrected. Sadly, this happens in all walks of life and companies audit each other to find royalty payments, people take people to court and pain on all levels is caused. If you feel that no matter what amount of money is worth the trouble, then the courts can settle things and you have to be okay with what ever happens there.

Brad put his side out there and a few others have come forward to speak of similar cases where they have been met with the same front. While the others that come forward can offer little more that is similar to what Brad has, I ask other artists who made their own videos for CA, who got paid their royalties on time and in full, to come forward because I suspect there are people who haven't been mistreated or had any issues. Wouldn't that change this entire situation?

I am with Velocity Kendall on this. I see no reason for a linch mob to run rampant based on what little proof we have seen. A linch mob is never the answer. I will make my decision when I can look at both sides and rationalise other, unseen factors in this.

[Sentinel.]

I don't agree that by not taking it to court that it means he also believes it's too small to pursue.

Even if he could take it to small claims court, which one does he go to? His local court? Theirs? Who is responsible for paying him, TAD or JM or CA? If they're in different locations, he would have to have a definitive answer. What if he has to travel to claim it? Out of pocket costs, time lost. And small claims courts, depending on their location, have different caps on the amount you can sue for, and you usually have to prove that the amount you're owed is under their cap. Meaning if the court he would have to take it to had a cap at 5,000, and he was owed 6,000, he couldn't claim it in that court even if he was willing to accept just the 5,000. And even if you take it to small claims, when going against a corporation even if you're in the right, it would be foolhardy to not at least consult a lawyer - which equals $ out of your pocket.

So again, I don't think that taking something even to small claims court is as simple as you've implied.

Anyway, we're just going in circles, and it's clear that you and I aren't going to agree on this. I've said my piece, we'll see what happens.

[Qitsune]

http://the plot thickens, another ar...01002989946164

FYI, Aurélie is a girl's name.

[Candra H]

Just wanted to say a big thank you to Android for his post, and also to VK for keeping a cool head in all this and not letting emotion get in the way of reason. All any of us can do now is wait and see what comes out in the wash.

And Blackspot, I'm off to rip up your wip now.

[hunchback]

Veronique Meignaud has also not been paid what was owed to her.

[Nemome]

Read my post *click* and make up your mind. : )

There has been enough discussion now and things will get fixed during the next days.
You all better contribute ideas and good stuff to the forum go get this place to something never seen before < 3

[Venger]

I've never torrented any downloads, the ones I have, I bought.

Royalties come from sales, if there are no sales then there are no royalties (ok that's a very basic view)
Regardless of the slump from the torrent problem, sales were obviously still made, as money was owed, and not paid - enough to be called out (and from the gist of it this seems to have been a problem from the beginning.)
The problem that companies and institutions that he's (Mr.Manley) is linked to seem to be distancing themselves for him (handling him like a pariah even) doesn't seem to help his case.
We are never going to find out the full details.
The question is do trust you trust CA.org anymore?…

[Velocity Kendall]

I trust TAD.

[Henchman 21]

hey all,

i realize i said i was done with this post- and what i should have said was im done with my thoughts on the issue of jasons business ethics in regards to brad and the other artists he has taken advantage of over the years (big thanks to andrew for coming forward, i hope others do so the rest of the people on the fence realize this is truly systemic and ongoing, and not an isolated event).

theres another issue here im sure ill get flamed for bringing up, but when something this important to this community goes this public its easily as dangerous as the problem itself.

its the problem of misinformation, and ignorance.

i see a lot of people here just saying things cause they think they're true or feel they're true or have come to believe its some kind of common sense community understanding. im looking at a few people when i say this, but im especially talking to you, Velocity kendall.

its clear from your comments all across this thread you dont understand some very basic things. such as how courts work, the existence of confidentiality agreements barring artists from revealing info as brad did, the cost of going up against a company legally vs the prospective gains of winning, the actual money brad and others have made off their videos to date, and so so much more. Ive had the pleasure of knowing brad and talking with brad and others jason has screwed in the past, and let me assure you, he didnt make tens of thousands of dollars on video sales, like some huge chunk of cash to support his livelihood. what he made was spaced out, infrequent, and often not the full amount. brads not some rich art god- just because hes pro doesn't mean he makes a killing. many pros dont, and 2 years ago when this situation began, brad was making even less. but thats neither here nor there. the bottom line is, you have no idea what he made, or what hes owed.

for the sake of argument, even if he had made tens of thousands of dollars off his video, you clearly have no clue how small an amount of money that is when raising kids, paying off a house, and digging yourself out of the debt accrued in the course of trying to go pro. tens of thousands of dollars is 'maybe' 6 months of expenses after your home, food, education fund for the kid (if hes lucky enough to afford it), taxes, and paying off the bank. so what difference is the percentage he may not have been paid? a huge difference.

youre ignorant, misinformed, and have no firsthand perspective on what brads going through. you need to stop posting and you need to stop passionately defending something you have absolutely no scope on.

for those of you going to the workshop (as ive seen velocity passionately arguing for), thats great and please make the most of it and the personal heroes you will meet there. workshops are great. i know a few instructors have dropped off, and honestly who can blame them after another thing like this comes to light. sure, its a shame the students attending wont get to benefit from their knowledge- but there are other workshops, run by more reputable people, and you will get a chance to see them again. dont blame the instructors for wanting to clear their name of a sinking ship, and avoiding the (now very apparent) risk of not being paid by jason for their presence at the workshop.

velocity- you do understand the fact that they are being offered money to go teach at the event, correct? offered money by a man who is now publically brought to light for not paying people money he owes them. i wonder why they dont want to attend. big mystery, huh?

for those of you going, have a great time! learn lots! workshops are amazing experiences and life changing. but while you're there, buy jason a drink and let him know EXACTLY how you feel about this issue and the many others hes been at the center of. after all, hes an instructor on art business at these events, so what better opportunity to personally first hand learn from his years and years of mistakes so you never repeat them. trust me, hes got tons of experience that will help your career.

[sone_one]

Youd rather see other instructors withdrawing. Is that your idea of ethical behaviour? Sounds like the worst kind of peer pressure to me. I say fuck it, I WANT to meet all the people up till now Ive only chatted to electronically, in my class or my sketchbook or their sketchbooks or on Facebook. Im going and you cant bully me out of it by saying London is poison.

And let us not forget, Brad Rigny was not a starving artist like many of the people who sympathize with him are, he made tens of thousands of dollars from his videos. Jasons not a devil and Brad isnt a saint, theyre both just people. Im sick of this ridiculous bullshit Ive got work to do.

wait wait you got me wrong there. if i would be confident that others wouldnt id buy a ticket, but i dont feel like paying 650$ for the workshop alone when half of the instructors list withdrew. thats all.. not trying to imply anyone should not attend, or do it my way.

[Chordate]

for the sake of argument, even if he had made tens of thousands of dollars off his video, you clearly have no clue how small an amount of money that is when raising kids, paying off a house, and digging yourself out of the debt accrued in the course of trying to go pro. tens of thousands of dollars is 'maybe' 6 months of expenses after your home, food, education fund for the kid (if hes lucky enough to afford it) and paying off the bank. so what difference is the percentage he may not have been paid? a huge difference.

youre ignorant, misinformed, and have no firsthand perspective on what brads going through. you need to stop posting and you need to stop passionately defending something you have absolutely no scope on.

His argument is also of course if he is making the FULL amount of the sale of the videos.... that's not what royalties are...at all.

[D0ming0]

I don't know why all the focus of this is on Jason Manley being the (sole) bad guy. I just looked back, all of the money I spent on downloads (including Brad's) went to TAD. I'd need to understand the finance setup and management setup there before drawing any conclusions about any individuals responsibility for late or missing payment. My experience of dealing with TAD after sales amounts to one email I sent which I never got a reply to.

Yes, TAD seems to be distancing itself from JM.

Ron Lemen (on Brads DA threat) said...

I'm in charge of the entertainment department and I can honestly say to my knowledge that we do nothing with CA in regards to any business, especially regarding CA merchandise

Well as I said, all the money I spent on CA downloads went to TAD, so that confuses me.

He also won't be going to London, which is very sad, because he says..

We cannot support wrongful business choices or work in conjunction with anyone who does.

Again, TAD got my money for Brad's video, was it up to JM personally to organise payment? Maybe, maybe not.

Anyway, I agree totally with VK above. We need to wait and see what other information comes out, because the only thing I know for certain, is that I don't have enough facts to draw any conclusions yet (I wish I didn't have to draw any, and that Brad, JM and TAD had sorted this between themselves)

A final disclaimer. I love CA, and Brads video & work. I've bought Ron's Gnomon DVD's (which a love, wish he would do more) and would have loved to meet him in London (if I get time to go). I've toyed with doing some TAD part time.

I wish all of this hadn't happened, but I'm sticking around no matter what. I'll put the light out once every one has left :-(

[Velocity Kendall]

His argument is also of course if he is making the FULL amount of the sale of the videos.... that's not what royalties are...at all.

Actually I said he might only be on a 50/50 deal. I didnt say he was making the FULL amount. Read more carefully.

its the problem of misinformation, and ignorance.

i see a lot of people here just saying things cause they think they're true or feel they're true or have come to believe its some kind of common sense community understanding. im looking at a few people when i say this, but im especially talking to you, Velocity kendall.

But that cuts both ways doesnt it because all we have to go on is one screed on Deviant Art. All Ive seen is one pissed off artist write that, and the a million nobodies jump on the bandwagon to kick CA.
If you have more information, bring it forward and if its solid, then consider me convinced. If not, take your own advice.

velocity- you do understand the fact that they are being offered money to go teach at the event, correct?

I wasnt offered money, I agreed Id do it because it looked like a good thing to do, to help youngsters get started.
Now thats being threatened by something that has nothing to do with it and youre right I will defend it from people who try to kick it down because of a personal beef.

Apologies to SoneOne for my misunderstanding.