The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[Main Loop]

I understand people needing time to step back and see evidence supporting one side or the other, I really do. But the tally of people that this same exact thing happened to that I know of is 3. One (Clochette) voiced this publicly, the other I was told of in a private message. These aren't people who go around "making trouble" and basically stayed out of the '09 drama here. I'm not going to pretend I'm not biased to think one side over the other, but it's not looking good for the side who owes the other one money.

[Black Spot]

Hopefully this will all be resolved in the next 48 hours. In the meantime there is an Art Duel that needs some votes here in the Lounge.

[Black Spot]

And it's still crit week - I have a painting up that you're all welcome to rip apart.

[silentrage]

I know some of you guys are reacting emotionally, and it's understandable, but I urge you not to let your imagination and gut feelings take over logic and observation.

I've been studying with ron lemen in san diego for the last semester, i've been at tad for 2 years, and i basically talk to ron every day.

I've never heard him mention CA downloads, I've never heard anyone mention him in regards to CA downloads.

He has an insane teaching schedule, and works on his personal projects, free lance work, a LAFAA class, and runs multiple figure drawing/painting workshops. He's not in Austin, where all the business aspects of TAD takes place.

AFAIK, one person chiefly deals with TAD business relations, and it's not Ron Lemen.

It's probably easy for someone on the outside to mistakenly assume that because JM has been associated with TAD in the past, then every bigshot at TAD must be in on whatever he is in on,
but from someone who's been here for 2 years, it's just not the case.

[sone_one]

i had this sinking in for the last 12 hours since i read it first, questions already been raised so no need to fire from the hip (this time ).

no matter how you turn it, the question is really difficult, abandon something that holds a dear place in your heart, for the reason something has been done wrong by someone who has a very little role in what this has become (yeah he paid the bills, weve been there...). to me its the innumerable amount users who contributed, what drew me here and the quality of their effort (words aswell as pictures), the dedication to learning... etc.
the other side of the coin to me is, that i feel kinda itchy about, supporting this kind of "bussiness model". whatever the evidence in this case might exactly look like, theres a record of ex-partners of jmanley beeing upset for whatever reason. so the question is...

do i want to have my role in that....

As of today, I have stepped forward from my management position with TAD to concentrate on building ConceptArt.Org into the vibrant portal I have dreamed of for so long and to develop a related entertainment IP and technology company that I am inspired and completely excited about.

?

and if it comes to me ... i rather have to answer "no". im all fine with anyone benefiting of my effort (no matter how high or low its rated individually), but someone beeing in doubt of making a living of artists efforts without proper compensation. as mentioned before i spent close to 1k euros on downloads and almost got all... and eventhough the information thats put forth by the individual instructors in those, been worth every penny, i feel kind of robbed of the illusion of having done something another artist benefits from, which been part of the deal to me.

im not sure where to go to... probably cghub, crimson daggers, and occassionally polycount. not the kind of guy for facebook, tumbler and such... too fast for me... too much garbage to sift through to get to the interesting bits, too much reading of useless crap and therefore time needed. in the end our portion of the net is rather small still and im pretty confident most of us will meet again, whereever. ill probably keep posting every now and then, but ill put my effort where im not in doubt of beeing utilized.


and while i planned to... im certainly not going to attend the workshop. this whole issue only has 25-33% influence on that, but i rather see other instructors withdrawing aswell. this is certainly not going to be what it is announced to. id actually be really surprised if this would ever take place at all. (remember amsterdam 2? and there aint beein as much public drama.)


[edit] and yeah this is just pure impression without any facts, but i sense an even bigger issue than that with the videos, beeing how responsibilty is now handed over to TAD, now jmanley has left. its redicilous how TAD gets a bad press now, THEY are the ones that stepped up and assured proper compensation, while theres only been mumblejumble from jmanley.

[HunterKiller_]

You know what's funny?

This is almost like the good ol' days again. I'm seeing quite a few old CA members jumping into the fray, who hardly ever/never post anymore.

Call me crazy but why don't you guys stay???
Then we might have a fuckin' awesome community again.

[hunchback]

Carl Dobsky has said he was never compensated for his work on the perspective videos. Clochette has also stated she was never compensated for her work on her illustration videos. I believe you can contact Brad on DA if you want evidence or such to help form an opinion for yourself. Ive already asked for a refund and will see you in New Orleans for the Steambot Workshop.

[skullsquid]

HunterKiller: So you'd rather have old CA members at each others throats?

[HunterKiller_]

HunterKiller: So you'd rather have old CA members at each others throats?

No, not quite. There were always dramas back then as you know, but they were always worked out like civilized human beings. Or in the Thunderdome.

[skullsquid]

I agree that hissy-fits should be dealt the Thunderdome way.

This is not a hissy-fit however, this is old baggage that was never dealt with properly and now it's reared its ugly head again because it needs a real solution.
Not a sweep under the rug.





The rug is getting bulgy...

[Incinerated]

I agree skullsquid

I cant help but wonder who'd win that thunderdome tho...

[Raoul Duke]

You know what's funny?

This is almost like the good ol' days again. I'm seeing quite a few old CA members jumping into the fray, who hardly ever/never post anymore.

Call me crazy but why don't you guys stay???
Then we might have a fuckin' awesome community again.

Wouldn't that be grand. But the turd in the punch bowl is too big to keep sippin the kool aide. It feels like by supporting manly we are validating those shitty clients that make you fight tooth and nail to get your money.

Admittedly I'm not committed to jumping ship. I'm going to stick around a little, simply 'cause I want to keep in touch with the community that's staying. I'm also balls deep in the POW challenge right now. But I'm gonna hedge my bets a little. This boat has a hole and it's not going to be pretty when we have to bail it out.

[creeptool]

does anyone have any sites similar to ca that you can post a link or just the name of the sites?... here's a link to a cool site it's not a forum but it has a lot of cool concept art for inspiration http://conceptships.blogspot.com/

[alesoun]

Okaaay... I'm an old-time poster. I got my sheriiff title from Jason because I disagreed with him and faced him head-to-head off the forum. I think I may have used swear words in the convo. Maybe even baaaaaad sweary words. I'm not renowned for backing down if I think I might be right, and I'm not going to ask a single person here to back down.
One thing I would ask from all the other community members, though, is to hang fire until Friday night. Let's give Jason a chance to clear things up. He has more than one person to deal with to straighten things up, and they need time to respond to him.

I understand why you are all upset (and if you're not, you bloody well should be). We are all members of CA, and anything that affects CA's reputation affects the integrity of each and every one of us. What has happened so far is pants, but it may be fixable. There is only one person who can attempt to fix it. Let's give him space to do that, and then have a discussion, if need be.

I want to keep on being a member of a forum where noobs and pros can be a family. I believe in that concept, but I'm not attempting to tell anyone what to do. Could we maybe give Jason a chance to fix any mistakes that affect the rest of us.

It won't be the first time in my life I've been told to piss off by somebody that disagrees with an idea I've put forward, but how's about it?

[HunterKiller_]

does anyone have any sites similar to ca that you can post a link or just the name of the sites?...

CGhub and CG society are similar forums, however there's nothing that comes close to the strong, diverse and close-knit community of CA (or what was once here, anyway).

[Eric Lofgren]

Sometimes the only thing left to an artist who's being abused by a client is to go public. That usually happens after years of correspondence that goes nowhere. It should not be taken lightly. And involving lawyers is not the solution, since invariably they're the ones who come out on top. Contracts are a minor tool that we all should have, but really it only acts as a guide and not a firm enforcement of it's details. So the only powerful tool we have in our meager arsenal is the network we are all a part of. And it usually will get some movement going in the problem once enacted. Don't think that Brad hasn't thought this through and weighed all the options before doing it. At some point we will all be faced with that decision. I know I have a few times now and I didn't have the nerve to do it so I had to eat the loss. But if an artist can step up and take affirmative action like this, we should be applauding it, not deriding it.

As for folks leaving CA or deciding not to go to any workshops coming up because of this; anyone who would do that should probably just leave. This isn't a playground. CA is an important place for those that want to learn and grow. And the forum isn't just by or about specific people. It's a great community of people that keep it going.

[Raoul Duke]

I always kept my first CA sb in my signature. It was my first big breakthrough after copying bridgeman cover to cover. it burned down in a fire though. I still refer to it when I feel like I'm not improving. I remember back then I didn't see any problems. Now I look back and see exactly where I've improved. I also look at it when I feel as if I'm not as creative as I used to be.
http://conceptart.org/forums/sketchb...axe-grind.html
I remember having to upload via dial up because I lived in the woods. I had photoshop elements and a wacom graphire.

[Pilgrim1099]

Cryptcrawler deserves to be treated well with such professionalism and class, but alas this kind of news just makes me feel very awkward to be a part of CA as a forum member. I feel bad for Mr. Rigney and seeing his work on the videos and other places makes me appreciate what he's done over the years. But not only that, it is a sad reality for many of us artists and designers in the industry in any genre to deal with such unprofessional business practices. It's not just CA alone but anywhere else in the world and it's a lesson we all must learn from to never let this happen (or we can try the best we can to contain the problem). I certainly hope that CA/TAD would resolve this matter immediately with Cryptcrawler or else, the name of CA is forever tarnished.

Again, I feel bad and would love to see Cryptcrawler continue to get more work out there. I would love to see his video tutorials but may not be able to hear what he's saying, otherwise may be able to follow what he's doing on there. I think he does have a book out there as well on digital painting?

Ultimately, Brad Rigney/Cryptcrawler, and everyone of us as well, deserves to be treated with the utmost professionalism and respect.

[Android]

What an unfortunate thread. Brad has been wronged ,I have no knowledge and can't speak to what has been communicated or paid out between them but allowances need to be made.

However I want to bring your attention to another concern . I feel I must come clean too. I also haven't been paid any royalties for years on any of my downloads. Anyone want to know why? Is it the unscrupulous practices of the Evil Manley? Some dark Ca.org conspiracy to exploit artists?....... No.
I thank and acknowledge everyone who has supported artists by purchasing the videos, New download sales are strong for the first few months. But soon after the videos reach a saturation point online, the sales graph nose dives to nearly zero. And that's because the amazingly supportive band of fellow concept art brothers and sisters torrent the videos. So who's upset at the tens of thousands of art students and professionals that have also directly stolen bread out of the mouths of Brads kid's by illegally downloading? Let he that has never torrented a video throw the first stone.

Knowing Jason for 15 years, I have endured more of his mistakes than anyone on these boards, and I won't defend his business or professional practices when it comes to interpersonal artist relations. . I'm sure that Brad has a legitimate concern that is worthy of addressing, and I applaud his courage for bringing this to our attention, but May I bring an even uglier truth to the surface.... as a "community" we may help each other out every now and then; however, we all steal from each other too. And many artists will do whatever it takes to get a little closer to the top. every institution has corruption, Welcome to the industry. The noble pursuit of drawing monsters, demons and villains for money.

But don't pay attention to what I have said. Let's tie a main loop around Jason's neck and stab him with a crimson dagger and watch him crawl into his own crypt. Burn down the CA servers, perhaps future artists can benefit from the downfall and make something more out of the ashes.


....as a gesture from TAD and CA.
I Vote that they release all existing downloads on the site for FREE

[HarbingerofIllRepute]

What an unfortunate thread. Brad has been wronged ,I have no knowledge and can't speak to what has been communicated or paid out between them but allowances need to be made.

However I want to bring your attention to another concern . I feel I must come clean too. I also haven't been paid any royalties for years on any of my downloads. Anyone want to know why? Is it the unscrupulous practices of the Evil Manley? Some dark Ca.org conspiracy to exploit artists?....... No.
I thank and acknowledge everyone who has supported artists by purchasing the videos, New download sales are strong for the first few months. But soon after the videos reach a saturation point online, the sales graph nose dives to nearly zero. And that's because the amazingly supportive band of fellow concept art brothers and sisters torrent the videos. So who's upset at the tens of thousands of art students and professionals that have also directly stolen bread out of the mouths of Brads kid's by illegally downloading? Let he that has never torrented a video throw the first stone.

Knowing Jason for 15 years, I have endured more of his mistakes than anyone on these boards, and I won't defend his business or professional practices when it comes to interpersonal artist relations. . I'm sure that Brad has a legitimate concern that is worthy of addressing, and I applaud his courage for bringing this to our attention, but May I bring an even uglier truth to the surface.... as a "community" we may help each other out every now and then; however, we all steal from each other too. And many artists will do whatever it takes to get a little closer to the top. every institution has corruption, Welcome to the industry. The noble pursuit of drawing monsters, demons and villains for money.

But don't pay attention to what I have said. Let's tie a main loop around Jason's neck and stab him with a crimson dagger and watch him crawl into his own crypt. Burn down the CA servers, perhaps future artists can benefit from the downfall and make something more out of the ashes.


....as a gesture from TAD and CA.
I Vote that they release all existing downloads on the site for FREE

[warpy]

https://www.facebook.com/aurelie.ney...01002989946164

-aurelie.neyret

That sounds way too familiar.
I too did a tutorial video with ConceptArt / The Art Department, a few years ago. Thank you to all the people who bought it, but I'm sorry to say, if I had the choice I wouldn't do it anymore. The only royalties I got, I had to ask and ask and fight to get them. Now I had no answers or money at all since over a year and a half. It doesn't feel good when you have to beg for what you deserve, you know. And the whole thing is so transparent that you can't even be sure of what they own you anyway. Recently the video is no longer sold on the Art Department website, with no notification of any kind to let me know. So at least I assume they're no longer making money from it. But who knows how much they stole from the artists.

It's not my habit to reveal issues like that publicly, but after all, everyone deserves to know the truth. And I know Brad and I are NOT the only ones at all.

[Raoul Duke]

"Let he that has never torrented a video throw the first stone."
Honestly I haven't and never even considered it. I spent a hundred dollars during a blow out sale where the videos were only 20 each (which is still expensive) and it was mostly stuff that I wasn't ready for. And there's no way I can stream those videos when I caught up. So I can see why some would boot it.

Your probably right and this is probably over chump change. It doesn't sound like malice or greed behind Manly's intent just a general dismissiveness. Somebody just doesn't want to go through the trouble of writing a check for fifty bucks.

[Alla Primal]

People are trying to defend Manley? Woooow

Yeah guys! It's piracy's fault man, or like, maybe it just wasn't that much money that he owes all those artists with successful video tutorials.. yeah.. Maybe

[Pixeltuner]

Same here. I've got 22 gigs worth of CA/MB downloads and they're all paid for. Time to get my throwing arm in shape again.

[Velocity Kendall]

and while i planned to... im certainly not going to attend the workshop. this whole issue only has 25-33% influence on that, but i rather see other instructors withdrawing aswell.

Why? What good would that do?

[Main Loop]

I never understood the reason that people have to put up videos on torrents. Do they make any money off of it? I just don't get why so many people put them up. I obviously get why people would want to download them, but what's the motive of the original seeder?

[sone_one]

Why? What good would that do?

well lets wait a few days, but im quite sure ron and vanessa lemen aint going to be the only ones cancelling.

[Velocity Kendall]

Im sure youre right, and I think its real shame that two guys not being able to keep their private business dealings private ruins London for everyone.

Youd rather see other instructors withdrawing. Is that your idea of ethical behaviour? Sounds like the worst kind of peer pressure to me. I say fuck it, I WANT to meet all the people up till now Ive only chatted to electronically, in my class or my sketchbook or their sketchbooks or on Facebook. Im going and you cant bully me out of it by saying London is poison.

And let us not forget, Brad Rigny was not a starving artist like many of the people who sympathize with him are, he made tens of thousands of dollars from his videos. Jasons not a devil and Brad isnt a saint, theyre both just people. Im sick of this ridiculous bullshit Ive got work to do.

[Ian Barker]

Im sure youre right, and I think its real shame that two guys not being able to keep their private business dealings private ruins London for everyone.

If they had kept it private, you may have been supporting a thief without realizing it. ("may have" is the key phrase there)

And actually Brad kept it private for 2 years. That seems like a generous amount of time before drawing the line.

I can't believe I'm seeing posts saying it's ok to not pay artists for work they've done. It's bad enough for our industry that you have to fight to get your paycheck, but now even the artists think that's ok? It doesn't matter what the amount is. Very very sad.

[Velocity Kendall]

WHO EVER IN HISTORY has said its ok not to pay artists for work we've done??

Brad Rigny got tens of thousands of dollars on royalties from his video. Which part of that dont you understand?

I mean I realise that somewhat complicates your absurdly simple world view; evil thief steals from poor artist, but being an adult is about understanding the world is more complex than that.