The Royalty Problem - News: Brad got paid from TAD

[Velocity Kendall]

No one is stirring up extra hate.

How can you say that with a straight face Ian, theres been nothing but hate stirring all night. You got caught up in it yourself, read back what you said if you dont believe me.

You started off saying "I'll wait to hear both sides before forming an opinion" and then went fucking ape shit when everyone else did. Im as disappointed as you, but a civil war isnt the answer.

I don't get why you are so adamantly against our viewpoint. What do you have to gain by defending this site so much?

Less than you ironically as your work is all over the front page of it. Moreover going against rampant public opinion isnt exactly doing me any favours is it? And I dont disagree with your view point re artists being screwed over, obviously.

I just don't think a giant witch hunt against CA/TAD, or implying anyone going to the London event is crossing a picket line, or threatening young people using the site with a being permanently tarnished is right, particularly based on a rambling screed on DA with no solid evidence, and no back story.. Its nothing personal against you I just disagree with everyone being so horrible and having a huge riot and no one asking even fairly obvious questions like wheres the evidence and can i see some evidence. you know?

I can assure you tho if this does turn out to be true, I will feel as gutted as you.
Oh no wait, Elwell left because of this, I already do.

[Lulie]

Main Loop - Thanks, that answer is helpful. Good point to bring up the potential knock-on effects. I think people should consider what they want out of this site and be cautious if what they want could be affected by this issue.

I personally still like this site and community and don't think the things I currently do on it are affected by this issue.

But also I'd like to emphasis what Velocity Kendall said: we don't really know what happened or why. We can agree that Brad didn't lie, but that doesn't mean Jason is necessarily at fault. It could have played out in dozens of ways.

My best guess so far is that it was an administrative cock-up and Jason's only fault is not being organised enough to spot it before people got hurt (and maybe being rude to him or something, which is bad but not devastating).

[Ian Barker]

How can you say that with a straight face Ian, theres been nothing but hate stirring all night. You got caught up in it yourself, read back what you said if you dont believe me.

You started off saying "I'll wait to hear both sides before forming an opinion" and then went fucking ape shit when everyone else did. Im as disappointed as you, but a civil war isnt the answer.

I've been pretty nice about it, even said how much I appreciate what Jason has done for the community.

I haven't gone "fucking ape shit" and I'm not really sure where you're getting that from.

I'm starting to feel like you're dragging me into a petty argument and that's not what the thread is for so I'll leave it that.

[Main Loop]

About the front page thing: I didn't have anything to do with it being put up there. I didn't ask to have it put there, so I was as surprised as anyone else to see it there. Second, I don't imagine it's going to stay there very long once he notices the 'edits' I made to that thread....

[SamC]

And now it starts to fit together.

Basically youre setting up the following dychotomy; youre either against Concept Art, or youre against artists. And youre helping people make their decision by making them incredibly angreeeee. Because righteous indignation makes judgement so much clearer. And who cares if theres no evidence to see yet?
And it worked beautifully. Look at the chaos it caused. Convenient timing right after the VFX Oscar business too.
And here you guys are with a readymade alternative.

Yep, a mastermind plot that's been years in the making. Glad to see someone in this thread is using their brain instead of waiting for further developments. Now lets start the witch hunt!

[Raoul Duke]

Thanoss and VK- I'm not saying anybody that doesn't jump ship is a trader. This is a historic site. Home of Nibru. It is time to take stock though. This is going to happen again and again. This site hasn't been the same since last time Manly shat the bed, won't be the same after this time and next time will be worse.

What Manly did is entirely too common. And that's the point. I knew somebody spent himself bankrupt so he wouldn't have to go through the trouble to pay out royalties. Luckily I saw it coming. That's exactly what this situation looks like. It looks like an accounting error. And the artists look like Milton Waddams from office space.

[Sickbrush]

First off this is all really sad from whatever perspective you might look at it.
Second of all Velocity Kendall, breaks my heart that you would think we're stirring shit up to promote the daggers. I expected more from you dude, we've spent some years together here. That forum wasn't launched last night. The fact that you've even mentioned the Oscar drama as "convenient" for this situation is absolutely low. Dammit man, come on.

In light of all the 7 years i've spent here i can only say a few things
1. I've learned a lot here.
2. What i've learned came from the people around and my own hard work. Both are just as important to me.
3. This is not the first time CA has been dragged through the mud. Old users know why, when and what happened.
4. The pride of saying "oh yes i've been on CA since forever ooh" is dying and not only that, it's getting to a point where i'd rather not have my name associated with this place.
5. Friends will be friends and the great people i've met here will still be around albeit here or another place.
6. I agree with Dariz as this is only an alarm signs to issues throughout the industry.
7. I am not taking sides publicly but i'm true to myself, my experiences and others' speak to me quite clearly even though i choose to keep certain things to myself.

With all this said and done, my sketchbook shuts down today but hey what's another guy leaving. To all the nice people around that i've known for years, you know where to find me.
Best,
C

[Velocity Kendall]

What I said about daggers i said in anger and confusion and was out of line and I withdraw it sorry mate. . the video was called Hostile Takeover tho. jk....
the idea of you shutting down makes me so sad.

[-Tragedy-]

So... Who wants to chip in for a domain name/server/vBulletin?
We'll make our own website... With black jack... And hookers... In fact, forget the website...

Jokes aside...

Now I'm rather new here in the art community/industry as a whole, been predominantly active on the forums since Aug 2012.
In this time I've learnt heaps from everyone here, helped some people out and have even made real-world friends via the contacts here.
I'm appalled by what has happened to Mr. Rigney, it's even more daunting as I am just coming out to work in industry and to know that a professional of his calibre has be screwed around.

In my uni course I have learnt a lot of how important a contract agreement is and why it is needed, but to think that it means sweet nothing is what is scaring me the most in terms of what should I fear/take note of once I am completely in the industry.
I don't know completely what had happened in legal terms and agreements; but I assume there was something.
Give Mr. Rigney his due... That's all I'm hoping for.
I don't want to see CA go. It has helped me immensely and the community is honest and professional in nature.

We haven't heard/seen both sides of the story or any documentation as to what exactly happened or who was involved.
It is sad what has happened, no doubt about that. However I want to hear/see an honest, non-political response before I make my mind up or leave this forum.
Not saying that I will leave, but if all the great people here leave; what's the worth staying?

End of the day, this has been a free service... Just saying... Although funded by money..... From tutorials such as what Mr. Rigney provided... Ah shit... Well... That's a sad realisation...

I'll be keeping my ear to the ground over the coming days/weeks/months to hopefully see a peaceful resolve.

[onionface]

I would also like to have proof and clarity before deleting my CA account.
Though there is some self evident facts here. I will try to be terse.

Brad and Jason both admit to having heated arguments related to pay prior to any of our knowledge. We also know that this argument has taken place over many months.
In other words, Brad tried everything possible to get paid before going public, none of this information is new to Jason Manley or TAD.
Then, within hours/days of going public, suddenly Jason takes things seriously, suddenly Brad deserves to get paid, suddenly TAD is on the case!

Accepting these points as "facts" or at least a reasonable prerequisite.
You have to ask yourself the following:
why did this take months instead of days or weeks?
How bad was the situation that Brad would risk his reputation and go public?
And most importantly - If Brad had not gone public, Would Jason and TAD have changed their ways? - I would guess not, and this is the most disturbing factor for me.

I submit that if Brad chosen to simply remain silent. Manley would never have spontaneously apologised without coaxing.
And TAD would never have suddenly decided, " Hey this ain't right brother, lets put our best detective on the case post haste!"

[Black Spot]

I deleted my earlier thread for legal reasons. I'd ask members to remember to stick to the facts and not susposition. I'm not going anywhere as I love it here with you horrible lot.

[Artofinca]

sad story.

[Spirit]

A little late, having only seen Brad's post a couple of hours ago... it was really hard to read his post, you can really see he's been fighting for so long now. It shouldn't surprise me at all really, given past events this isn't entirely a complete, one off incident. Why would Brad lie? As somebody else said earlier and was ignored, it'd be illegal for him to show any of the evidence he has and would make any claims he had against whoever is withholding his rightful payments void. He'd lose a lot to lie about something like that, and I remember seeing his tutorial come about and his disappearance shortly after... now I know why.

I'm trying to withhold judgement because I don't know everything, but having seen everything that went on in the past and to have more artists coming forward to back him up who also created tutorials here, it's hard not to. I mean, it's hard to accept that a place you love could have connections to something like that, and I can understand why some of you are so adamant on defending CA, as after all it's Manley (or others involved as well) who are at fault. But would you honestly feel comfortable with yourself knowing all of this is going on, and still stay? Yes, we aren't giving them any money by using the website, but it's not just money that shows support to something like that.

I'm also really shocked to see quite a few people blatantly saying they "don't care", because it's not affecting you so why should you care right? Well it is. It's just yet another case of countless others where it's ok to rip hard working artists off, they're just artists right? They aren't you. But it could be you, and even if it's not CA ripping you off, it could be another company or client not paying you. I bet you'd care then! I just hope this gets resolved quickly and Brad gets the money he's owed. It shouldn't have come to this in the first place, he should have just been payed like it was agreed upon in his contract. I bought many of those tutorials, like many others, believing our money was going to the artists who've helped us so much with these productions.

I've learnt so much from this website, and I'm grateful to the community who made any of that possible. I would like to stay here as it's the best website I've found so far for it's community, I've tried many others but they just felt empty. I just don't think I'd be comfortable staying here knowing I'm supporting a place that rips off the very artists they're claiming to support and help, or even stay somewhere that has connections to that. It's tough, but at the end of the day it's me who's doing the work, and supporting fellow artists should be the priority, not defending somewhere that has connections to ripping creative people off.

[Candra H]

Yeah, I hate to make uninformed judgements, but how can I possibly know what really happened? I can't really contribute anything further to CA until people get paid, though.

I hear you and I understand.

But like I said, I don't know the situation and all any of us have at the moment is one person's word against another's and a lot of angry speculation. I'm a big girl and I don't take kindly to being urged to leave a site by people who look like they're jumping to conclusions and being driven by emotion rather than reason. Like I said, I'll wait to see how things pan out.

So until there's proof either way, I wont stop posting here. I love this site and the people who use it so you can find me here updating my sketchbook and working on improving my art as per usual.

[thanoss]

Ok cya to everyone leaving, have a good time on cghub or another dead forum. Hopefully you wont be posting any longer.

[paperX]

Candra, despite what it may look like, most us aren't trying to force anyone to leave CA or demand a refund for their London workshop tickets. What we want is just an answer that doesn't revolve shifting blames to another party. The explanation given so far by Jason Manley vs John English and Ron Lemen from TAD simply doesn't add up.

[Pixeltuner]

Meh. This site, the community and all it's downloads (of which I own 80% or so) have been the major catalyst of my development for the last 5 years.. So this whole situation is kind of gutwrenching and most of all a damn shame.

[FROZ3N]

RIP SICKBRUSH
good night sweet prince

[John Silva]

Manley is like this spoon, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y and again and again... See you guys on Crimson Daggers forum.

[Candra H]

Candra, despite what it may look like, most us aren't trying to force anyone to leave CA or demand a refund for their London workshop tickets. What we want is just an answer that doesn't revolve shifting blames to another party. The explanation given so far by Jason Manley vs John English and Ron Lemen from TAD simply doesn't add up.

Thats cool, I'm sure you're not, but it does look that way for sure.

Re explanations given so far. I can only go by what I've seen here and on Deviant Art and TAD since all this kicked off last night. I don't have a Facebook account or a DA one, so I might be missing a lot of other stuff being said. But I havent seen anything yet that would make me call Jason Manley or TAD crooks. Jason said a couple of pages back that he'll be making a proper response in good time, and until then or until there's legal proof that there was a deliberate attempt to "steal" royalties from artists, not just Brad Rigney, I'll give Tad and Jason Manley the benefit of the doubt.

And yeah, I'm all for answers and truth too. And with that, I'm also all for behaving like adults and using reason not emotion when it comes to situations like this. I know there are a lot of younger people here and on DA etc, but I'm an adult and I cant support the potential slander of people without real legal proof. That just smacks of immaturity and emotionalism to me. Sorry.

[Nemome]

I don't know what I'm up to recently, so I'll just be patient and I'll wait till we can see what is going to happen.
CD is also a nice place, but CA is CA and CD CD. They are different forums so we should not compare these two.

But I have to say that I find it sad to see what's happening with this place.
I had a lot of fun trying my best to make this site better during the last 2 weeks, but this ruins everything.

But hey, at least our site is now known to everyone again..
Let's see how this is going.

[Havok Reed]

When I first found out about this I was disgusted. I first read Brad's post on his DA site and I must say, that I too, am disappointed. I have only been on here for a few years, I do not know of any of the other BS that has gone down in the past, but I love this forum for what it is. I'm sure Brad isn't lying, because this has apparently happened to other people as well. But for those of you who have and haven't read Brad's post, he says that this is not a call to arms. Yes he is still angry about it all, but not enough so to make a statement that he would soon regret. All he is saying is that you need to be careful with who you deal with. By everyone leaving this forum, you are hurting the community more than you are hurting the people who own it.

If you do not want to support the owners, then don't buy the stuff. I don't own a single thing from this site, because I couldn't afford it, but I still learned a lot. Don't destroy this tightly knit community over what happened to a fellow artist. Do I condone what happened, of course not. Is Brad dead? Did Jason Manley go to his home and murder him? No. I can only hope that this is sorted out and Brad gets what he is owed. Too many people have already left and I hope they change their mind.

See, I currently run the ChoW with Quinn Simoes, but we do it because we love this community and we want to improve ourselves. We aren't paid for it, we aren't even patted on the back and told "good job guys, this thread hasn't been so alive in a long time!" We volunteer our time because it is fun. Frustrating sometimes, but worth the time we put into it. And you can't tell me that all the time you spent on this site, learning from other people wasn't worth it. So I ask you this, is it really worth throwing it all away? Do you TRULY wish to see this site buried 6 feet under? There will be drama no matter where you go, but that should be between the victim and the accused. There will always be supporters, as I support Brad and his cause, but I DO NOT support all of you wanting to destroy this because this is important to me. The people who have wronged Brad can piss off and needs to fix it. It must be something serious enough for Brad to bring out into the open, it must be worth his time to bring up. But take it as a warning from him, not a "destroy CA and never return!" He doesn't want that, because he knows that this is a wonderful resource.

I only ask that you all to reconsider and think before you act.

[Venger]

Everyone needs to step back a bit - the situation has been brought to light, lets hope all the tutorial artists will now get paid.
Then they can look a what went wrong.

To be honest the situation has been made worse by the volatile emails (Brad/Jason)
I too have been stiffed by clients and to be honest I could see myself doing exactly what Brad has done, when all else failed.

If Jason had reacted with censorship and the ban hammer then I would have been gone, no outcry, no rattling the cages, no pitchforks, just gone.
However, I'll wait and see his response before I make my judgment.

[Mr.Delicious]

I don't understand how people are separating the artists losing money for their work on the downloads and the CA community itself. You're acting as if these people never were your peers. We all work so hard on our art to try and become something and when someone who seems to have reach like Jason offers out for something as big as the downloads you tend to trust it. The fact that these artists were spending time working on educational materials for you and not getting compensated directly from you is ridiculous. This is the one place where you'd never expect to get screwed, you expect it from clients, you never expect it from people who act as if they represent your community. A community that actively fights against these terrible practices. But I've heard this from so many artists who have sold their work through here that its too hard to ignore.

I totally understand the desire to say, 'you know, hes just one guy and he doesn't represent my experiences on this site as a whole' and ignore the drama. But then you choose to ignore the bad business that is effecting your peers, people you might look up to who deserve compensation for what they've given back to you. Its nice that Brad may finally receive compensation for the download from John but thats 2 years too late. Things like this shouldn't only happen when its blowing up in their faces.

Wouldn't you like to know that when you're done busting your ass making a name for yourself that at least the community that brought you up will hold you up? That they wont act as if it doesn't effect them at all? I'm sorry to get super dramatic, I hate that stuff(nah I it)

[Havok Reed]

Like I said, I'm supporting Brad. But I'm not going to leave at this point in time for what we don't entirely know everything about. There are too many "ifs" right now to make a solid conclusion. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the support from people that he has gotten. But this has become a huge issue and I for one would like to make my decision after things pan out.

Awaiting a response from JM...

[Arshes Nei]

Ok. I am gonna take a break from CA at this time. I don't know if I'm coming back. Like I said I cannot support a site that hasn't paid someone. It goes against a lot of what I ironically learned from CA.

But, reading this thread, there's a lot of dicks. I'm definitely a big bitch for saying it and not exiting quietly like Elwell (bless that man and his sly words).

Y'all are dicks for posting Join Crimson Daggers, Join CG Hub, "leave the site, "fuck Jason" etc when the problem is about a guy (and others) not getting his (their) money. You're assholes for that. Do you go to funerals and sell luggage to the guests that flown over to go bury their loved ones? Do you have any ounce of tact? You made it about you and your stupid vendettas, and you may have turned people off from joining those forums as much as you think it was a great time to promote your selfishness.

Jason is a dick for ignoring this for so long and arguing about it and not helping Brad. I don't think of Jason as the mustache twirling villain. I still respect and appreciate a lot of what he's done. He and I haven't seen eye to eye all the time. However, he's helped me at times, I'm eternally grateful for this too. However, this shouldn't have happened period.

Brad is a dick for bringing it out in public, but I can sympathize. I've had clients from hell and sometimes this is the only recourse you have especially when you have the threaten legal action. Least I see why the Downloads just disappeared and no explanation given for the longest time now. It's not a pretty situation and you do end up being a dick or bitch for it.

Thanos you're a fucking dick. Go draw and stop acting like internet tough guy.

The people trying to minimize the fact someone is owed money, yeah you're dicks too. It doesn't matter the amount. You pay that person. Don't act petty or "jelly" over this. It's just dumb.

CA is a community but there is too much of this happening and same pattern. That's why I need a break and I admit it may be permanent. I'm a bitch for making it about my decision on participation but look, I'm tired of it. This doesn't mean I'm here to tear apart the community, I bought those downloads to support the site, support artists. And some I bought multiple times to give to others. I wanted to help the site with my knowledge but this drama gets in the way of that. I shouldn't have to feel like I'm putting out fires, when I want to focus on more technical aspects to improve the site. I was actually working on this when I see this and it's like "not again!". I used to come to CA as a diversion of stress and learning and now it's another source of it. I have my health to think about too as selfish as it is.

I want to see all those artists get paid and get their royalties. I don't care if it's a $2 check. I'm glad to see statements that this is going to be rectified but actions speak louder than words.

So good luck to those it's not like it's hard to contact me anyways. I need some rest.

Jason said he wasn't going to ban, but he said nothing to me about not deleting accounts. See you thanoss.

[saprissa9]

Thanoss is one of those trolls that Brad talked about. Excuse me thanoss but what gives you the right to call people names? And I am talking about your very first comment. Just like the trolls that jumped me when I gave some negative opinions about the TAD classes I took 2 years ago.

[thanoss]

Go fuck yourself arshes . Your a cunt. Now that you're left, everything will be better here.

[thanoss]

Saprissa your the biggest cunt on this site. your not a troll, but your a simple and utter twat/cunt.

[Havok Reed]

i understand where you are coming from Arshes, but the name calling wasn't necessary.

Thanoss: that crap stops now.

This isn't a thread of who can insult who.

EDIT*

Jason said he wasn't going to ban, he he said nothing to me about not deleting accounts. See you thanoss.

haha nice...