Why would Brad show those emails to the public? He's not out to prosecute anyone, he wants to warn people about doing business about CA.Originally Posted by Velocity Kendall
aka Liffey
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
Why would Brad show those emails to the public? He's not out to prosecute anyone, he wants to warn people about doing business about CA.
Show me all the blueprints
Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
is it unreasonable to ask to see proof?
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Allan Xia
Level 9 Gladiator: Hoplomachi
Yeah well, I was one of those people...and you know what? At this point all Jason is doing is dragging CA's name through the mud, I thought we're supposed to be about the artists and the community, not some arbitrary honorable name for a website which we must defend at all costs, even if it means ignoring the truth. If you really cared about CA.org or the art industry at all, you would join us in finding out exactly how this happened and how it can prevented. Burying our heads in the sand ain't gonna solve a goddamn thing.
I also want to see some evidence from Brad (some emails transcripts would easily solidify his case), however, so far all we have is Manley saying TAD's been handling accounts for 3 years, John English saying he doesn't know anything about it, and Ron Lemen saying the downloads aren't associated with TAD at all.
At least the "public opinion" has their story straight.
concept artist
Level 10 Gladiator: Equites
Sharing confidential correspondence is illegal. The proof you ask cannot be shown.
aka Liffey
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
Not at all. But it is unreasonable to think Brad is lying.
Professionnel
Level 6 Gladiator: Provocator
as i've been on CA a long time ago, even though not much in recent years, i'll post my thoughts, that i already posted on FB.
wow, amazing. drop a couple grams of red meat in the water and all the piranhas rush.
i'm taking neither side, i don't even know the guy who posted his note, but whatever happens, it should have stayed between him and CA.O or TAD or whatever. i've known jason a long time and, if i'm the only one doing it, i believe he wouldn't be the one directly responsible for brad's problems. afaik, jason created CA.O, that's one thing, but he is not the check holder at TAD, even tho brad ended up mostly arguing with him.
anyway, they should resolve this person to person, i don't care personnally but i wanted to react to the mad posts i read here, from people who are not involved and/or have no clue about what's going on. as someone said above, you should have both sides of the story, imho.
shame such situations happen, i feel for brad because, as many artists, i know what it is to work a lot and live almost on the pavement, but i don't think this regards any of us or should warrant such a hate flow against probably the wrong person.
my two cents.
Critique Centre Dweller
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
Suppose everything that Jason has been accused of is true. Even if it were, is that reason to stop using this forum, a free resource that most of us have learned so much from? Using this forum doesn't give anyone money, and so is not supporting anyone directly -- it only helps you.
I guess one can argue that having a community here does give some prestige. Hmm.. I guess the thing is: I like CA. I like the forums and the community and high-criticism, serious-about-art atmosphere. I like the inspiring threads, tutorials, x-of-the-weeks, people who take both digital and traditional methods seriously, everything. If someone is not getting paid, that totally sucks, but that's not reason for me to give up a world that I like and benefit from so much.
I don't think individuals who benefit from CA like I do have responsibility to stop doing so if CA and an artist they're paying gets into a financial/legal dispute. Legal institutions will be a lot more effective at both finding out definitively what happened, and righting the wrong, than CA posters. (Though I would agree mods and people more structurally affiliated with CA have a bit more responsibility, and should look into it for their peace of mind.)
Breaks my heart to hear Ron Lemen is no longer going to attend the workshop. He was one of the top instructors that made me want to attend in the first place. If any more ditch it, I'll have to consider getting a refund. Hoping things will be cleared up and that won't be necessary...
Sketchbook | Composition tutorial
@LulieArt - Twitter, where I post useful links, tips, and neat art-related things I stumble across.
Who Do You Voodoo, Bitch!
Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
my thoughts about this i really dont give a shit if some guy i don't know didn't get paid..i'm still a beginner at drawing so i suck at it..i come on here for entertainment and inspiration and to learn something about art and maybe post some of my drawing..it's a shame how many people or abandoning ship on here...if this forum shots down i thing myself and lot of people will be screwed over...does Brad Rigney gev a shit if i get screwwed over? the answer to that question is NO! so why shoud i gev a shit about it.
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concept artist
Level 10 Gladiator: Equites
cuz maybe one day you wanna feed your kids too brah @creeptool
Show me all the blueprints
Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
I didnt say he was lying, I said I wanted to see actual proof. So should you.
But its pretty clear from what youve already said that you dont need any proof, and neither does the internet. The trial by public opinion finds the defendant guilty on all charges.
The punishment? Destroy CAO.
This whole thing smacks of a mob on the rampage. Is that who you want to be? Its ugly.
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Why would they want Jason gone? I mean does Jason directly influence what they do on this site? This is his site he has built up many years ago. It is upto you if you use it or not. Something between Brad and Jason has nothing to do with how this site is run or used. This site has been living on for years without Jasons direct involvement, why not just keep it as a disagreement between brad, jason and TAD. What is it with peoples own personal; agendas with wanting Jason gone, boycotting the workshop, boycotting this forum, stoping posting on this forum, wanting others to buy this forum, wanting others t setup their own forums. What the hell does any of that have to do with whats happening with jason and Brads dispute. I am not angry, but people with their own fucking agendas anger me.
Critique Centre Dweller
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
Also, Jason, for what it's worth: The most reassuring thing would be to fire the person responsible.
(Assuming it is someone else's screw-up as you said.)
And get Brad his money immediately, for good faith if nothing else.
Sketchbook | Composition tutorial
@LulieArt - Twitter, where I post useful links, tips, and neat art-related things I stumble across.
aka Liffey
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
I trust that Brad has the proof he says he does. I trust that Brad knows how the internet works, that wouldn't throw out random accusations from which he has nothing to gain and much to lose. If I were a judge or jury about to hand down a sentence, yes, I would need hard proof. But we're not in a court of law here. We're people with opinions. Don't act shocked that we like to share them.
I understand what you mean about the angry mob thing, but that doesn't discount what they're angry about.
First you're mad at me because I don't want to use the site. Now you're yelling at me telling me I have the choice of using it. And then you go on to yell at people who don't want to go to the workshop anymore. Come on mate, just calm down.
And it has to do with their dispute because many of us have spent money thinking it was going to the artists.
Last edited by Ian Barker; March 6th, 2013 at 05:48 AM.
Registered User
Level 9 Gladiator: Hoplomachi
That's awful news. I hope the best for anyone involved directly.
That being said,
I truly hate seeing CA getting dragged into this. I value this place a great deal and it has given me a lot. I also believe its heart and soul lie in its members, not in a single figurehead. No pitchfork and torch for me, especially not against CA.
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Registered User
Level 3 Gladiator: Catervarii
Really ugly situation if this turns out to be true but I have to agree with Kendall - not enough evidence, too many emotions.
Show me all the blueprints
Level 17 Gladiator: Spartacus' Dimachaeri
I think everyone needs to calm down before we wreck our town.
Thats all im saying.
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Coro Throws Himself These Sometimes
Level 14 Gladiator: Dimacheri
You should print out this post, put it away for a while, work on your craft for a few years, become a professional artist, pay dues for a few years, then pull it out and read it. You'll be pretty embarrassed you used to think this way.
Registered User
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
Pretty much what Main Loop said, also it's not just "some guy you don't know about"; it happens to a lot of people. It could happen to you. You may not care about the person, but you'd do well to care about what's going on in the business if you're hoping to become a paid professional yourself some day.
Not to mention that I (and many others) bought some of those tutorials. It is really saddening and frustrating to learn that the money we gave away is (apparently) not going to the people who deserve it most.
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Registered User
Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
Is bad that this is happening and is bad for the community and will only hurt us. I also think that this problem here is deeper then some paycheck and it reflects the crisis we are in and the industry is in at the moment.
What I want to say is that I am not taking Jason's side (I don't know what or who is right in this case) however I think above all it hurts the community more then anything. I personally would like to see the London workshop happening. After who knows how many years everybody might be in the same room together (hopefully without cutting each other's throats )...is that too much to ask? If this fight here hurts that perspective or destroys this forum then I have to say I disapprove with Brad's action.
I support the "Imagination" Workshop event and this forum as it's bigger then any personal drama. Maybe is time to get together not only for this kind of fights but for some constructive actions as well.
Registered User
Level 12 Gladiator: Laqueatores
Ah, pains me a lot to see a lot of familiar faces already jumping ship. If I jump depends a lot on any evidence that comes forward frankly. Brads journal feels heartfelt, yet I know nothing of the relationship between him and Jason. Or even the two themselves. The only thing I have to go on is that there was drama like this before on the boards with previous artists, TAD and Jason. So it appears again, do I jump to the conclusion that "Oh well it's Jason again must be 100% like Brads journal says". Part of me felt that way when reading once again, but part of me just needs to see the evidence because I've read one too many blog posts from people I've met spouting shit about people I know. They sound very convincing but there's plenty of unknown details they forget to list or some skewed facts even if it wasn't on purpose.
Then the fact that Brad hasn't posted on CA in I think 2 years. http://conceptart.org/forums/search.php?searchid=660100. Right after he set up his tutorial. This to me I'm guessing means some shit likely went down between him and this site or even him and Jason, who knows. I mean why else would you just stop posting on a site that's showing/selling your tutorials and one you probably enjoyed? That's my guess at least. That and Brad has said he's been fighting for checks for .... 2 years.... so I'm guessing they ended on a sour note.
Either way it comes down to some actual evidence. So tomorrow will be an interesting day when I wake up. Very curious about any new developments.
Coro Throws Himself These Sometimes
Level 14 Gladiator: Dimacheri
I'll tell you why.
Say everything is true. Say the evidence comes out and the courts favor Brad(if it goes that far), therefore makes him pay out all he owes to everyone. If Jason is able to even afford to keep this place running, this place will always be associated with his reputation. That means whatever comes out of it will come with that heavy string attached.
Now say you keep posting on this site, and somehow this site persists despite the negativity associated with it, and you are able to build up a nice little core group of kickass artists amongst yourselves. Eventually you're going to hit a wall. You might want to put together your own workshop someday. Are you going to use the conceptart.org name, with all the baggage it carries? Are you going to go through the site, knowing what type of business practices you're going to have to deal with? If the answer is no, then why use the site in the first place. Personally, I think it would be better just to start fresh someplace else where you don't have to even think of potential future problems. Also, won't you feel just a little bit dirty about using a site where you found out that the founder has been engaging in unscrupulous practices against the artists he purported to be helping?
Barbarian
Level 7 Gladiator: Samnite
I would have doubted of Brad's story if this was the very first time something like this happened here, but unfortunately it's not !
It's really saddening to see that some guys (the financial dep and JM) are ruining the trust of this community just to make a little more money on some artist's back that trusted you.
Maybe you should quit all the art stuff and start to work on wall street. With this sort of attitude you'll fit perfectly there!
Who Do You Voodoo, Bitch!
Level 4 Gladiator: Meridiani
i never planned on doing business for ca so it doesn't have any meaning and it dosin't relate to me..mosley pro artist and semi pro artist are boycotting this site they have nothing to lose if this ca site shuts down but beginners like me will lose out big time.
CREEPTOOL'S SKETCH BOOK please feel free to critique my sketchbook
PencilPusher
Level 5 Gladiator: Myrmillo
I think the situation is ironic and sad.
I believe that I owe a lot to the CA.org community, over the years that I've been a part of it I've learned and shared so much with the people here. However for a community/site that advocates to be fighting for the rights of artist it's a very serious accusation. Especially since there are now more artists confirming that this is not a rare case. No matter how much of it is true, it's a fair warning to aspiring artists out there. For that I support Brad in going public, I don't think he would put his reputation on the line if he wasn't convinced he was right. As for Mr. Manley, his reputation on CA and outside is not exemplary and that might have some damaging consequences for him in the future. Maybe it would be a good idea for him to take a step back for the time being until the air is cleared.
I do however hope that there will always be a community for (aspiring) concept artists, on this site or another.
Allan Xia
Level 9 Gladiator: Hoplomachi
There's a context to the passionate response to this incident - it is not an isolated case. Despite what you think, not all of us are trying to ruin CA with some hidden agenda. You think people just leave a community that they spent years being part of, due to personal drama of others with no "involvement"?
No, when the Man tells promises you workshops which you spend money preparing for, only to have it delayed or cancelled without warning, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man tells you that he advocates for the copyright of all artist then go around and uses other artists' art without permission for his own gain, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man promises a great education learning from prolific artists for starving students, then does a bait-and-switch with the tutor line-up right after he gets your money, you call out on the bullshit. When the man drives away the very people he used to call "best friends" who contributed to the very foundations of CA, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man tells you that you must buy art tutorials to keep a non-profit site dedicated to helping artists grow stay running, then goes around and publicly humiliates kids, posting personal info and sadistically bragging about ruining their careers because of one mistake, you call out on the bullshit. When the Man then goes even further, and pockets all the money from said tutorials for himself, leaving those who contributed because they loved this community high and dry, you call out on the bullshit.
You know what? I can go on...but you get the idea.
The worst reason why there's a "direct influence"? When you call out on the bullshit and then gets perma-banned from the very community that you love by the said Man.
This is not an isolated incident, it's simply the straw that broke the camel's back.
This is the context behind the thread, this is why people are angry that bullshit like this keeps dragging CA's name through the mud. Have you seen what others outside of CA think about us these days? THEY believe Jason has a very BIG influence on CA. Do you think both amateur or experienced artists would be interested in joining a community that advocates screwing over other artists?
You say what Jason does shouldn't have an impact on the CA community, but don't you see, it DOES, and that's why we're discussing this. No one outside of CA separates the site from Jason, what he does is reflected upon all of us. When new artists don't want to join us and older members leave/ get banned, what do you think will be left of the community?
If you really want Jason to have no influence or "direct involvement" over how we use CA.org, then I think you know the answer to your question - this is why we want Jason gone.
aka Liffey
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
Keep posting then, no one is saying that you shouldn't. I'm sure there be plenty of learning on this site in the future.
Some people would prefer to go off to where the air is less tense, and that is their right as well.
The problem with ignoring this problem is that it has happened many times before and will continue to happen if people don't finally call it out. It's not fun but it needs to be done.
Coro Throws Himself These Sometimes
Level 14 Gladiator: Dimacheri
maybe not now, but you don't know how you're going to feel, say 5 years from now. It's also not true that there's nothing to lose from us boycotting this site. Nobody is willingly try to destroy the site. I've been here since '03. From '03 to about '07 I got so much out of this site. I would love for this place to keep doing what it used to do for so many of us. Unfortunately it's not going to if all the professional artists don't want to support it just because of the bad business practices of a few people at the top.
Registered User
Level 1 Gladiator: Andabatae
Really upsetting to see that some iconic forum members are leaving. I love the community here; Where is everybody going, CGHUB?
New account for a fresh start.
Coro Throws Himself These Sometimes
Level 14 Gladiator: Dimacheri
My response was a hypothetical based on the outcome falling a certain way. I don't have anything to do with Crimson Daggers. Why would you lump us both in the same post like that? You're really reaching there.
I don't get why you are so adamantly against our viewpoint. What do you have to gain by defending this site so much?
aka Liffey
Level 13 Gladiator: Retiarius
Calm down man. MrDelicious was obviously playing. Everyone has been saying that they love ConceptArt. There is no chaos, simply a lot of disappointed people. No one is stirring up extra hate.
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