HUGE problem with Graphic Designer!

[M_Oreilly]

Okay so my mother in law owns a bakery- she had a designer create her logo her the labels. She paid him but after she did she realized he had misspelled artisan bread -artesian-. Now she should have gone back and asked for him to fix it- but she didn't. This was before I was in the picture to tell her so. She took it to a local printer who does all her label printing. Long story short: she gave him the files and if he could fix the spelling error and he said he could. The problem is now he refuses to give them back. He says because he edited them they are now his intellectual property! Can you believe this guy!? She didn't even sign a contract, but now he's basically strong armed her into using his print shop for everything.

I'm furious because it's an error I could have fixed myself in two minutes had I known about it. Now he says he wants almost $300.00 to return the file- he wants her to buy the files BACK FROM HIM. This has to be illegal but I don't even know where to start. I've talked to her about scrapping the whole thing and making a new logo, but that's dangerous because the brand is very well known in the area.

I would really appreciate some advice.

[sweetguts]

She doesn't have the original, misspelled file saved anywhere besides whatever data storage device she used to send it to the printer? If not, and it wasn't that long ago, the artist probably still has the file themselves and she can just ask them for another copy (and ask to have that spelling mistake fixed while they're at it). If you can't recover the file from anywhere else, get the police involved. The printer doesn't know or own jack and he has no legs to stand on.

What he's doing is totally illegal and I would hope that your mother in law never does business with him again, and spreads the word that he's a crook.

[prepsage]

Agree. First, go to the original designer first and request the original files to take to another printer. While she's at it, you can let her explain the situation to the designer that created the work and let him/her know she may need to request a sworn statement from him that he was the originator of the logo design at some point.

Second. Refuse to pay the printer for any work completed until he returns the file and mail a letter to this regard. LOG EVERYTHING and all communications . Times/dates of conversations and what was said. Keep copies of all emails. You can attempt to file a police report just so you have it logged and on record, but it is likely going to be a civil issue to be settled in small claims if it goes that far. He has no rights to the work and cannot claim any, but it's better to be safe at this point. Let the printer know you will be contacting the better business bureau and take your business elsewhere.

[vineris]

Under copyright law the printer does not own any part of the logo except possibly the changes he made.

Also, teach your mother how to make backups of everything. You can make an exact copy of a digital file, there is absolutely zero reason to take your one and only original to the print shop. PS - you might want to check her computer, if she's completely clueless she might actually have a copy still hanging around in her e-mail. And as other people have said, she can probably get a new copy from the graphic designer as well.

[Qitsune]

Also, since it's a local thing, maybe the local chamber of commerce members would be interested to hear about that a-hole.

[Velocity Kendall]

this is also a good lesson; designers are always dyslexic; never sign anything off or pay for it till YOU check all the spelling.

[Raoul Duke]

That cocksucker is a genius. I'm going to do a paintover of spiderman#1 and demand Marvel pay me royalties for the IP I created.

[M_Oreilly]

Thanks all- hopefully now that I have an outside opinion she will take action. I guess she has contacted the previous designer, or attempted to, and has had no real luck getting anything out of him. Knowing my mother in law it's possible he's very annoyed with her. Worst case scenario I think I can just scan a label we already have and then POOF. New graphic. It wont be the best resolution but I have a feeling she wont want to go to the police about it. She's not confrontational enough. Maybe I could email him and be like "BITCH, GRAPHIC. GIVE NOW."

[stabby2486]

Wow, that's a major dick move :/ Just go ahead and scan it. The resolution should be perfectly fine.

[Qitsune]

Wow, that's a major dick move :/ Just go ahead and scan it. The resolution should be perfectly fine.

No it should not. An analog copy of a printed digital file cannot be as good as the original.

However I don't think the police are the people to handle it. I think that guy needs a nice cease and desist letter. There are legal groups that catter to small businesses and it's also possible to find models for cease and desist letter. Be sure to send it registered.

[stabby2486]

No it should not. An analog copy of a printed digital file cannot be as good as the original.

Maybe not. But depending on how hard the edges of the type are, it'd be really easy to isolate it with color selection/masking, refilling it, duplicating the selection, and it's good as new. Then, if the type isn't linked, removing the e and replacing it with the i would be really simple.

Although I guess it would be nicer to give that dude a nice dose of karma.

[Star Eater]

No it should not. An analog copy of a printed digital file cannot be as good as the original.

However I don't think the police are the people to handle it. I think that guy needs a nice cease and desist letter. There are legal groups that catter to small businesses and it's also possible to find models for cease and desist letter. Be sure to send it registered.

Indeed, this is the kind of thing cops normally refer to small claims court, or whatever equivalent you guys have in your respective areas. This is very much an attorney matter.

[Black Spot]

An autotrace vector program should be fine.

[Raoul Duke]

Here's a Tut

Scan at 300-600 dpi+select color range+paths pallette+make work path+save path+new layer+fill path=vector art.

I'll let you off cheap. That will be $8,000. You'll be receiving my bill soon. And I now own all rights to the word artisian. And the word bread.

[iambanana]

There's a shortcut in Illustrator that actually works really well. It's called "trace image" or "create outlines" or something along those lines. That is, unless you're dealing with tons of gradients and whatnot. Only tried it in b/w but it has worked like a charm thus far.

[untier]

How ridiculous the whole thing was... I'm wondering at all those kind of guys. Why would they do such laughable things? Does that man really have a crippled brain? Giving up the good deeds he should have accumulated and a good fame in exchange for Immediate small profit... Excellent decision!

Thanks all- hopefully now that I have an outside opinion she will take action. I guess she has contacted the previous designer, or attempted to, and has had no real luck getting anything out of him. Knowing my mother in law it's possible he's very annoyed with her. Worst case scenario I think I can just scan a label we already have and then POOF. New graphic. It wont be the best resolution but I have a feeling she wont want to go to the police about it. She's not confrontational enough.

I don't know if you're kidding or you have some bias on her. But even though there're other factors affecting the whole matter, people should know how to do things rationallly without considering each other's character. Or they can start an independent action to comdemn someone who offended them, instead of causing an objective business wrong, which is also doing wrong thing.

[M_Oreilly]

Okay so I've gotten a bit clearer a picture now than I did before- this is her email with names witheld:

"The original graphic designer made our logo for us. The print shop owner had to do a lot of work on the original file in order to get it into the right format for printing. The print shop owner said the graphic designer did not know how to convert it for the best pixalated format.

We are trying to get plastic bags printed for the breads, and we need a copy of the native files to do this. The company who is giving us a quote for the plastic bags is out of Seattle (print shop cannot print bags), and they need the native files to give us an estimate.

The print shop owner has repeatedly refused to give us the native computer files. He gave us a pdf of a smaller format, for a fee, but not the native ones. Now he's is asking about $100 for each file, which is a lot for us, but he is claiming Intellectual Property Rights."

Now I know the original file was an InDesign file. But I'm confused as to why it needed to be reformatted in the first place. And by "reformatted" does he mean a different file type? Because my mother in law says he told her he spent DAYS reformatting it. Which is why he believes he has some claim on it. My instinct is that he's taking advantage of her lack of understanding, but it may be over my head too. I've never come up against such a problem when ordering prints of my own work.

[Maidith]

My instinct is that he's taking advantage of her lack of understanding,

Sounds exactly like that.
If the printer had any right in doing what he did he would have told you beforehand about the procedure and cost. A professional will always give you a cost estimate. But this guy is a whack. I agree with what others said here.

[Harkins]

Depends on a lot of things. If the designer created a jpg or pixel based design instead of vector then yes the printer would have to recreate it. However, your mom still has IP rights because he isn't changing the logo concept itself, he's essentially tracing over what was already made. If I trace the Nike logo I don't own rights to that symbol. Your best bet is to contact a lawyer and get them to write them something as a bit of a scare. The printer only has the right to be paid for their time on creating the vector, not the idea.

Live tracing something into a vector format isn't a professional method at all. A good designer will use the pen tool to keep the points on the paths limited to avoid jagged edges and imperfections.

Good luck.

[Velocity Kendall]

You basically sound like clients from hell. You hired an amateur, cocked up the spell check, told the print guy to fix the problem and now are refusing to pay him.
See this video? This is you.



Do you take things from shops without paying for them?
If you take your car to the garage and get it fixed and the mechanic asks for $300, do you A) pay him B) wait till hes done the work then demand the car back for free and threaten him with court action, C) send him gobsmackingly unprofessional emails saying ""BITCH, CAR. GIVE NOW.""?

If the graphic designer created the logo as a bitmap then he is an idiot and an amateur. sounds like an attempt at cost cutting by hiring some kid on the cheap that failed...

If your mother in law pays people without checking the spelling and hands over her only copy of the files, shes either lazy or unprofessional. and by the sound of it a massive nut-doer into the bargain. It doesnt sound like the print guy is trying to take advantage, it sounds like hes trying to help you get your stuff printed and you wont pay him.

If she told the print guy to go ahead and rebuild the logo as vector and set it up for print and it took him or one of his team several days, then it IS his property till you pay him and $300 is pretty cheap. Thats only 2 days at 15 dollars per hour. Of course he expects to be paid for his time and wont give you the work hes done otherwise. Hes already given you a PDF of the work which is more than youd get out of me I can fucking assure you.


As you admitted you dont understand the first thing about print or why the print guy would need to rebuild the jpg logo as vector, here is a breakdown of the difference between pixel bitmaps and vector, including native file types for each.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ctorrev3.shtml

Vector is suitable for printing because it can be scaled to arbitrary size without pixellating.
No professional designer would ever submit a logo for print as a bitmap. And Id bet you a billion pounds he didnt convert it to CMYK or align it properly, or add the correct bleeds and other information that makes labels labels, and not just little pictures what he drawed.

InDesign is publishing software, you use it to lay out assets for print, for example a label would consist of the images, backgrounds, logo, nutrition info, legal, ingredients, etc etc etc that make the label arranged on a page. You dont use it to create the assets, any more than you take photos with a picture frame.
The logo itself will have been designed in Illustrator, or, apparently in Photoshop cos the designer didnt know how to do his job properly.

Heres a list of what you should do next:
Dont pay printy the print guy, and start from scratch having alienated your local print contact.
OR
Get a grip, stop being dicks, pay the man what you owe him, get your stuff printed and on the shelves and move on with your lives.


Choice is yours.

[M_Oreilly]

It's true, she really didn't know what she was doing. But in my experience at least people on the business end of things rarely understand the inner workings of the design process- which is why they hire people out to do it. I was not around when she decided to do all this or I would have told her she needed a vector image. If I understand correctly she doesn't want the vector images he made- but the original files she gave him in the first place. I don't know why she didn't keep a copy for herself- she's dumb.

EDIT: Apparently the print shop owner made no attempt to vectorize the image at all. And the original results from his reformatting (which I got to see myself) were horribly pixelated.

[Elwell]

Amateur hour all around. My advice is to stay out of the whole thing as much as you can.

[M_Oreilly]

You're probably right. But it's so frustrating. My fiancee co-owns the bakery and although he's not a designer he knows enough to realize she royally cocked things up. The business is our livelihood so in a way- it does concern me. But working with the trio of my mother-in-law, the designer, and the print shop owner is beginning to feel like herding cats.

[Velocity Kendall]

"But in my experience at least people on the business end of things rarely understand the inner workings of the design process- which is why they hire people out to do it."

A proper outfit will talk you through everything and explain timescales and costs. but they will charge a chunk of money. however as has been demonstrated (over and over forever), hiring monkeys is a false economy.

[onionface]

I've worked as a printer before and it's something my brother does full time.
If you give an incomplete file to a printer and ask them to "fix it" or even prepare it in anyway, they will charge you, and rightfully so.

If the printer had to spend a day color correcting, vectoring and fixing design errors, then they deserve to be paid for their additional work.
A printer is an artist too, and if the corrections were so easy you could have done them your self, he therefore performed a professional service and will naturally charge for this service,
the same as the original artist.

The print shop does NOT own the original work, and does not have the right to with hold the only copy of it.
but it does have the right to charge for the fixes, and does have the right to hold the "fixed" artwork until paid. And really $300 for a professionally prepared logo, is cheap.

I suspect that he asked to be paid for this additional work on top of printing costs, and when your mother-in-law refused, he decided to with hold the files?
Because that's what I would do.

[Lady Medusa]

I've worked as a designer in an advertising agency.
The designers should have been able to fix it. I don't understand how they can live with themselves if they made a logo with a typo.. I know I couldn't unless the customer was a grade a bitch.

I'll also second onionface's post.
I've vectorized my share horrible logo-scans and changed colours on some logos for holidays and events. It eats up a lot of valuable time and rightfully it shouldn't be done for free.
Are you sure they are claiming ownership? Or do they just want to get paid for the time spent fixing it?

Edit: Almost forgot. We had a few customers who didn't have the logo themselves, but remembered who made it. The designers who made it should be able to give it to you again. In my experience they're always helpful. If they won't help you directly try having the printers or ad agency give them a call. be prepared that it might cost a little bit extra to do that though.

[Qitsune]

Even if the logo required substantial editing, an estimate of the cost of the editing should be made ahead of time. You don't just add up stuff to the invoice after the fact. But of course, we only have one incomplete side of the story.

[Velocity Kendall]

You don't just add up stuff to the invoice after the fact.

haha lol

[Candra H]

As you admitted you dont understand the first thing about print or why the print guy would need to rebuild the jpg logo as vector, here is a breakdown of the difference between pixel bitmaps and vector, including native file types for each.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...ctorrev3.shtml

I just wanted to add a thanks to VK for this. Not for what he said to the op but for giving me an insight into the vector thing, which is something that normally goes way over my head.

So yeah, thanks.

[Elwell]

You're probably right. But it's so frustrating. My fiancee co-owns the bakery and although he's not a designer he knows enough to realize she royally cocked things up. The business is our livelihood so in a way- it does concern me. But working with the trio of my mother-in-law, the designer, and the print shop owner is beginning to feel like herding cats.

Yeah, I figured. It's pretty much an all-or-nothing situation, then. If you can't have nothing to do with it, then your other option is to go all-in and take over completely. Tell your future MIL that you'll take care of straightening everything out, as long as you have a guaranteed understanding that she'll pay whatever needs paying. Then, cut her (and fiancee) out of the loop completely, contact the designer and print shop directly, tell them that you (and only you) are the new contact person, and that you want to get everything straightened out. Get their sides of the story directly from them, starting at the beginning. It's going to be a huge pain in the ass, and probably take time and effort with little reward, but hopefully it will be worth it for future family stability.