I want to improve...

[Zilkenian]

My skills, style, drawing, color...everything I can.
That's why I found this forum like heaven.

I draw cartoon (NOT MANGA, PLEASE, THE INFAMOUS MANGA!!!), and even if I already have a simple cartoon style, I want another cartoon that tends to a more detailed style.

I've been in DeviantArt for 6 years, and drawings for 13 years (as a hobby, since I was 2, 23 years ago), but there's always a lack of criticism I cannot stand. Only seeing my own mistakes I can improve, so that's why I ask for your help (and also, I don't know if I'm good enough to post these drawings in the "It's finished!" forum)

Nice to meet you, and there are them:



By the way, yes, I'm tying to escape from Manga style...

[johnny24]

do studys from real life, anatomy etc... i like loomis books but i know there are some better books! painting from real life will help you a lot! and by the way i think you should make a thread with your sketchbook in this forum.

[Zilkenian]

do studys from real life, anatomy etc... i like loomis books but i know there are some better books! painting from real life will help you a lot! and by the way i think you should make a thread with your sketchbook in this forum.

I did the "drawing from the real life" already. Actually, that's how I started to draw anatomy...better than before XD (Trust me, I used to do the anatomy really, really bad...)
I want a cartoon style, not manga, not absolutely real. Some thing between Disney and Danny Phantom.
EDIT: I think I'll draw from real life, but for poses maybe...

But it seems I lack of something...

You think so?...Well, Maybe I'll do it, thankies ^^.

[johnny24]

when i started to understand the shape of a face i managed to exagerate the porpotions etc... its just an idea

[Zilkenian]

Mmmm....Maybe is Just forgot that. Maybe what I need to do is go back to te basics....
I'll try. Thank you a lot for this, really. I hate being stuck, and now I have a way to keep going. I hope more people give me more criticism >w<!.

[J.R.Hollis]

Hey man I'm going to level with you. Brace yourself.

The first thing if anyone posts on this thread is tell you to pick up a pencil. Whatever you use to draw, and start drawing real people. From real life. With real body parts. Consider yourself completely ignorant when you post here. And truly consider every critique. Even the guys who've been here a hell of a long time get some pretty thorough critiques from time to time. No one here will try to destroy anyone's art. Half of the folks here are professionals, consider it a privilege.

Now, I will humor you. The Japanese style of cartooning is as legit a style as any other, there are GREAT illustrators out there. But one thing they all have in common is using reality as a base. Takehiko Inoue for example, you can see that he knows how to draw people, and all of these awesome things because he bases his artistic skill in reality.

This is my suggestion, and pretty much all you're going to hear from EVERYONE on this site.

Stop what your doing. Go outside. Draw people realistically. Forget about style.

Look at my first and second sketchbook and notice the difference, shit look at everyone's sketchbook.

Welcome to Concept Art by the way.

[Stoat]

You'll get much more useful crits if you post one piece at a time. If you post several things, people give you vague and abstract feedback on what they see as your overall progress level.

But, Johnny's got it. I could be wrong -- it's a big ol' world -- but I don't think anyone has ever achieved cartoon excellence without spending serious time on the same art fundamentals as any other artist. It's not just figure drawing...it's learning how to draw volume and light and fabric and...well, it's a huge curriculum. It's a BIG job.

You can go on polishing what you're doing now, and you will certainly get better, but you will always feel like you lack mastery.

Which might be fine. There's nothing wrong with a casual commitment to art. Weekend painters often have a lot more fun than professionals. But if you want more than that, there's no skipping boot camp.

[Lulie]

The reason is: Cartoons are just abstractions from real life. If you want to make really good, believable cartoons, you need to understand what real life looks like (so you know what you're making abstractions of).

This is also valuable because it means you'll be able to do any style, or invent your own (choose your own abstractions), instead of relying on knowledge of other people's styles (which may not have totally consistent rules, but all are referring to something real).

Start here: Figure Drawing For All It's Worth by Andrew Loomis. Drawing from life will help, but I'm going to slightly disagree with the other commenters and say it's easier (and perhaps better) to understand the structure of what you're drawing. You need both, but Loomis will help you more directly with the stuff you want to do (i.e. from imagination).

Focus first on proportions (very key, very different from manga and cartoon, will be counter-intuitive at first but stick with it) and basic anatomy.

For colour: Color and Light by James Gurney (guy who did Dinotopia; fun book!).
I could give so much advice on colour but it's hard to know where to start because, as Stoat said, you posted a bunch of images and it's easier if you picked one to focus on.

Light is in a similar category. One thing about the light in your first image is that you have highlights on the nose and cheek, but the lightsource is directly behind him! No way the light could 'see' those parts of his face.

Perspective (this will come up pretty soon -- it's needed for drawing figures well): Perspective! for Comic Book Artists by David Chelsea. (Also very fun book, with emphasis on the fun. One of the main characters has a mug for a head. Yes, this book on perspective instruction has characters... And yet it doesn't dumb it down.)

And there are several other worlds to learn (anatomy, how light works, environments, etc.), but this should be enough for now. Start studying, make a sketchbook thread on that subforum to track your progress, and post again if you get stuck or have questions.

[Zilkenian]

I wish I had the money to buy those books...but thankies!

The thing is, I already draw from real life. I'm not trying to excuse myself, but I spent 2 years drawings from real life in an academy, and by myself, and actually, is what I say to everyone (first draw from real life, then to cartoon, first anatomy, then cartoon).
That's why I find kind of funny see my own comment from others to me XDD.

Next time I'll post only one drawing. Sorry, I did read the rules, but maybe I didn't see quite well if there was one about posting only one pic ^^u.

Well, thanks. I'll try to draw from real life and then, my own style. I only want to say I'm not a realistic artist. I just can't. Don't know why, but my imagination takes me to styles that could like to kids and teens. I guess I was born like that XDD.

[arenhaus]

I wish I had the money to buy those books...but thankies!

Come on, man, three books would cost you about $60 if new, less if used. You can collect this kind of sum by saving a part of your lunch money for a couple of weeks. Books are as much of a necessity as food.

The thing is, I already draw from real life. I'm not trying to excuse myself, but I spent 2 years drawings from real life in an academy, and by myself, and actually, is what I say to everyone (first draw from real life, then to cartoon, first anatomy, then cartoon).

Then the real question should be: why doesn't this life drawing experience translate into your imaginative drawing? What is your obstacle?

Perhaps you ought to show some of your life drawing, preferably both finished and unfinished - quick gesture drawings too. Then your particular problem might become clearer.

[Lulie]

Arenhaus took the words out of my mouth: post some life drawing to continue diagnostics.

Sorry for preaching to the choir. I guess that means that something more subtle is going on. Making a sketchbook thread is ideal for this because you can post everything.

There's no rule against posting multiple drawings, it's just that people tend to give general comments when there are multiple drawings, and specific comments when there's one to focus on. So, it depends what kind of comments you're interested in. (Sketchbook threads are perhaps better for general comments.)

On the cartoon front, which styles have you studied? Have you dipped into Preston Blair's Advanced Animation? (I mention that in particular because it has focus on structure and giving a 3D feel, and is great.) How did you come to this style?
These questions aren't as important as the 'post your realistic stuff' thing, but might aid in identifying what's happening when translating life drawing to imaginative.

[Zilkenian]

arenhaus, I'm not a kid (sorry if I look like that XDD). I don't save "lunch money". I don't have a job right now and the money I have I must save it just in case my family needs it. That's why I said that.

That's something really caught my attention and I was thinking about it while looking for a job this morning. I might try to use what you say to make my cartoon style work better...maybe is that what I need.

You mean I should post my drawings from where I was......don't know how old but younger than now?

I have the "Preston Blair's Advanced Animation" book, and I already read it. It was really usefull .

I started drawing manga at the age of 12 (we are not going to count from 2 years to 12), with no anatomy at all. Then I started to do arts in some academies, where I used all kind of traditional techniques (not oil paint, the only one I didn't touch). So started, in fact, with pencil.

Digital didn't come until I was 18, when I went to a full time academy (not something with Highschool), where I learnt the anatomy, how to draw in realistic to translate it into cartoon/manga, backgrounds, perspective, traditional color and ink, and then, two years later, I started digital painting.

I never draw in digital, because I just can't. My hand only accepts pencil to draw. But I already did the start from reality.
Next drawing I do, I'll post it in my sketchbook .

But, only a question: in this forum there's only, ONLY, realistic styles? Because maybe I'm in the wrong place :s

[Stoat]

Well, the forum is nominally about concept art which, for obvious reasons, is usually highly realistic. But it is by no means only concept art. If you spend time browsing Finally Finished, there's a huge variety of styles represented.

Thing is, it's fairly straightforward to critique representational art. Cartooning is harder. You can really only say if a given picture is working or not working.

[LaCan]

Your images reveal your lack of familiarity with principles of good visual design. These principles are universal, regardless of the "style". The best way (known to date) to learn and internalize them is aforementioned deliberate and thorough practice of drawing/painting from life.

If you're serious about your work, you should listen to advice given. Otherwise, don't worry and just enjoy your drawing. Be aware though that there may be things that you don't know you don't know.

[arenhaus]

arenhaus, I'm not a kid (sorry if I look like that XDD). I don't save "lunch money". I don't have a job right now and the money I have I must save it just in case my family needs it. That's why I said that.

Didn't mean you were a kid; just that a cost of a book is low enough that even a kid could collect it within reasonable time.

There is a balance between saving money and spending some money to earn it. You can either find a job - any job you can - to support yourself temporarily, or get some good books and use the free time to study like hell, so you can push into getting small commissions to support you. You can do both, too.

You mean I should post my drawings from where I was......don't know how old but younger than now?

I mean you should post the life drawings from whenever you were doing any. Preferably the newest ones.

I have the "Preston Blair's Advanced Animation" book, and I already read it. It was really usefull .

I agree, that one is very useful even for non-animators.

Digital didn't come until I was 18, when I went to a full time academy (not something with Highschool), where I learnt the anatomy, how to draw in realistic to translate it into cartoon/manga, backgrounds, perspective, traditional color and ink, and then, two years later, I started digital painting.

The problem is... I don't see that much of anatomy or perspective or realism translating into your manga style. So I wanted to look at your other work.

I never draw in digital, because I just can't. My hand only accepts pencil to draw.

That's normal. Not everyone sketches on the tablet; I can do it but I don't like to, it's too hard to control.

But, only a question: in this forum there's only, ONLY, realistic styles? Because maybe I'm in the wrong place :s

No, though this forum is predominantly about coming from the side of realism. Concept art bias: it has to look believable. But cartoons are accepted well.

[Pavel Sokov]

There are plenty of cartoons here, but they look like they are coming from a place of knowing lighting, anatomy, composition,etc. Basically it looks like this person knows how to paint realistically and only AFTER adapted their rendering to a stylized version in a way that benefits the image.

You will not agree, but I suggest you get away from Deviantart and never return. That place is a great way to not become better. The sooner you get out of there the better.

You keep on saying you painted realistic but are not posting any. So I have my doubts about the extensive anatomy studies.

I suggest you get back to doing that, and stop drawing manga. After more time of realistic studies, you will be able to come back to Manga and it will come out better. That is how I feel.

[Zilkenian]

Please....I accept any criticism, any thing you say...but DON'T say I draw manga....I spent two years trying to escape from the infamous manga....
I know I still have to go out of it, but don't label me as a manga artist.

I made that realism when I was 20-21, and I'm 25 now. I don't have those drawings anymore.
Also, now I understand what you all mean (sorry, sometimes I need time to understand things lol XDD my mind never stops creating ideas but is so slow for some things)
Also, I found the "Posemaniacs" webpage, where all the poses are in human realistic anatomy without skin, so I think I'll start from there, and then, I'll understand again the anatomy, to be able to draw in the style (cartoon) I want.

By the way, I have another style, even more cartoon, which is the only one I find okey for me. I don't know if I should post anything about it...maybe to show you how my mind works.

arenhaus, if it was that easy to get a job, I would have one by now. But there's crisis in Spain, and jobs are very difficult to get, even the stupidest one. I can't buy those books for now.

Thanks for the DeviantArt advice, but I still need to stay in there at least to have a gallery until I can have my own webpage. I'm not there to have lots of comments saying "Aw, how beautiful is your drawing!" but to store my drawings for now. And yes, I know what happened with Snapesnogger....

[Pavel Sokov]

Sorry, I don't even know what Manga is. I honestly just hate all that stuff and its all the same to me.

Anyways, a poster called EZpaint posted this in the finally finished section. I think this clearly looks like the artist is fully capable of realistic painting (we know for a fact he is, since a lot of his other images are realistic) and he brings that skill to his Anime (or whatever it is called, don't be offended, I just really don't know anything about those styles), so it looks informed by anatomy, color theory, and composition.

[Zilkenian]

Ok...I see...(beautiful painting by the way).

Ah, yes, if sometimes I react angry to some comment, sorry, is something I'm working on to control.

Manga is the japanese style. Sailor Moon, Dragon Ball, Heidi (yes, Heidi), Pokemon, Doraemon, Digimon, etc.

Cartoon is more like Transformers Animated, Danny Phantom, The Secret Saturdays, etc, and Disney. All Disney is cartoon. And Dreamworks too (Rise of the Guardians is cartoon in 3D, style I can't stop loving and it's something really alike to what I really want)

So, the main point here is not just realism, but anatomy and proportions. Then yes, maybe i have to go back into that. They were always a weakness for me, and maybe they've got weaker in the time I spent trying to find a style.

[vineris]

The thing is, I already draw from real life.

When you draw from life, do you only draw figures? Or do you also study colour and light, trees, clouds, textures, and pretty much everything else that is not human? Because in the pictures you posted, the lighting conflicts in different parts of the picture, the shadows are too dark or too light, the trees are not like real trees, etc. etc. Anatomy is not the only thing in the world that is important!

In fact I would say that right now, you should work on your knowledge and observation of colour and light, then environments. When you go outside to sketch, do colour studies (watercolours/aquarelles are good for this). If you live in Spain there must be a lot of beautiful light and colours outside! There must be beautiful architecture. So why are you not using this in your art?

[Zilkenian]

When you draw from life, do you only draw figures? Or do you also study colour and light, trees, clouds, textures, and pretty much everything else that is not human? Because in the pictures you posted, the lighting conflicts in different parts of the picture, the shadows are too dark or too light, the trees are not like real trees, etc. etc. Anatomy is not the only thing in the world that is important!

In fact I would say that right now, you should work on your knowledge and observation of colour and light, then environments. When you go outside to sketch, do colour studies (watercolours/aquarelles are good for this). If you live in Spain there must be a lot of beautiful light and colours outside! There must be beautiful architecture. So why are you not using this in your art?

Yes, I did that, but as I noticed, I have to do it again. I think I should do it, or when I can't go out, do it from photos. Those trees I did there where from a photo, and I know, is not as effective as the real life, but could work the moment I can't go outside or I don't have any time.

Thanks again. In the academy they made me do all this, but I think I have to redo it so I can finally get the proper drawing cartoon style I want.

[vineris]

Thanks again. In the academy they made me do all this, but I think I have to redo it so I can finally get the proper drawing cartoon style I want.

These are things that you will have to continue doing for the rest of your life. You can't memorize how to draw everything in the world from every angle under every lighting condition, so you must continue to study. Thinking "I have already done this so I never have to do it again" is a bad idea. It's like exercise. You have to continue to do it to get the benefits from it.

Those trees I did there where from a photo, and I know, is not as effective as the real life, but could work the moment I can't go outside or I don't have any time.

This is a good strategy if you already know something about the subject, but in this case the trees look fake because evergreens do not have spiky leaves radiating from a central trunk. I think what happened was that you looked at a photo of snowy trees, and because you could not see what was happening under the snow you guessed. But you do not know enough about trees to guess right. Now, many people will not notice, but if you put enough small mistakes together, you will have a picture that doesn't look right. And because each mistake is small but there are many of them, people won't be able to tell you WHY it doesn't look right.

Now, if you have a very cartoony style you can get away with trees that are very stylized -- a simple triangle will read as an evergreen tree in a very stylized picture. But the closer you get to realism, the more details will matter.

[Zilkenian]

These are things that you will have to continue doing for the rest of your life. You can't memorize how to draw everything in the world from every angle under every lighting condition, so you must continue to study. Thinking "I have already done this so I never have to do it again" is a bad idea. It's like exercise. You have to continue to do it to get the benefits from it.



This is a good strategy if you already know something about the subject, but in this case the trees look fake because evergreens do not have spiky leaves radiating from a central trunk. I think what happened was that you looked at a photo of snowy trees, and because you could not see what was happening under the snow you guessed. But you do not know enough about trees to guess right. Now, many people will not notice, but if you put enough small mistakes together, you will have a picture that doesn't look right. And because each mistake is small but there are many of them, people won't be able to tell you WHY it doesn't look right.

Now, if you have a very cartoony style you can get away with trees that are very stylized -- a simple triangle will read as an evergreen tree in a very stylized picture. But the closer you get to realism, the more details will matter.

Wow....I loved reading your comment...

Yes, you are right. I want both styles: cartoon-cartoon and cartoon-realistic. But the second one is what I have to improve. Alright, next time I do a tree, I'll find one with every detail of it's form, so I make it right!
Next, I have to look for the lights and shadows....wow, there's lot of things I have to do to get this right, but at least now I know from where to start, so thank you.

[arenhaus]

Please....I accept any criticism, any thing you say...but DON'T say I draw manga....I spent two years trying to escape from the infamous manga....
I know I still have to go out of it, but don't label me as a manga artist.

I am sorry if it annoys you, but things don't always work the way you want them to. You simply cannot ask every single person who sees that blue picture you've posted to not call it manga. It simply looks like an attempt at manga style. The other two are hafway between that and Western animation styles.

Pictures always speak for themselves. You cannot be there for every viewer to explain what you meant to do.

I made that realism when I was 20-21, and I'm 25 now. I don't have those drawings anymore.

Do a new one and show, then?

Also, I found the "Posemaniacs" webpage, where all the poses are in human realistic anatomy without skin, so I think I'll start from there, and then, I'll understand again the anatomy, to be able to draw in the style (cartoon) I want.

Posemaniacs is garbage. It uses poorly constructed 3D models with muscle texture slapped on them; it is anything but good anatomy. Draw real people instead.

By the way, I have another style, even more cartoon, which is the only one I find okey for me. I don't know if I should post anything about it...maybe to show you how my mind works.

Just stop fidgeting and show what you've got already.

arenhaus, if it was that easy to get a job, I would have one by now. But there's crisis in Spain, and jobs are very difficult to get, even the stupidest one. I can't buy those books for now.

Suit yourself. You can sit and complain that it is hard to get a job, or you can go seek a job. But it isn't going to find itself while you are complaining. Your choice, in the end.

[Revidescent]

I may be misunderstanding, but you seem to have the attitude that drawing from life is something you do until you understand it well enough, and then you can consider it done and move on. But seriously, the styles you're interested in derive from animation, and do you have any idea how much animators draw from life? It's not something you do to get out of the way, it's ongoing. You mentioned Danny Phantom as one example of the cartoon style you're looking for - here's some lifedrawing by Stephen Silver, the lead character designer from that show. Here's the blog of a storyboard artist at Dreamworks; go back a couple of pages and you'll see how carefully he studies the construction of anatomy. Here's some of his sketches from life, just going out and drawing people. I was an illustration student at a college with an animation program, and the animators kicked all our butts in knowledge of anatomy.

Also, though it's not your intent, there's definitely some anime influence in your style. This isn't necessarily a bad thing! We're all a sum of our influences. If it's reading that way, there's no reason to take offence. It might serve you better to start asking what about your style is bringing viewers to that conclusion. Anime is just Japanese animation, after all, and a wide range of styles lie within it. It's still cartooning, and the basis is the same. These days, especially, there's a huge amount of cross-pollination between western and asian animation styles.

[Psychotime]

But, only a question: in this forum there's only, ONLY, realistic styles? Because maybe I'm in the wrong place :s

Nonono! There's all kinds here. Just the realistic leaning side is more common.

So, the main point here is not just realism, but anatomy and proportions. Then yes, maybe i have to go back into that. They were always a weakness for me, and maybe they've got weaker in the time I spent trying to find a style.

It's a waste of time trying to find a style. Style will find you, just get studying. Forcing a personal style is a waste of time.

[Zilkenian]

I'll edit this part because I noticed it could bring problems, and I don't want that (I saw I need to wait until a Moderator accepts my new message, that can't be good). I'll make...like I didn't read anything....

Didn't know that Revidescent. But now I know what to do: real life means better cartoon (at least they work better). That's what I will do. Thank you very much.
Do you have those drawings you are talking about? I would love to see them.

Really?...It is, Psychotime? Maybe I should stop trying to find one...

[Psychotime]

Your personal style is just the accumulation the the things you like doing or seeing, combined with what you know. It comes from learning and exposing yourself to a variety of things. Your personal style is you unconsciously saying to yourself "I like doing it this way".

When you're telling yourself "no, the nose should look like this because it's more stylish and original", then you're going about it wrong.

If I can make an example, I like drawing big mouths with teeth. Because I like animals with teeth. Because I like artists who draw big mouths with teeth. Because I hate the type of styles that go out of their way to undermine the size of the mouth and the visibility of the teeth (like most anime). Heck, when I'm at a red light, I'll occasionally look at my own teeth in the mirror! It's not something I forced on myself, (I do sometimes draw tiny mouths, when I find it funny and appropriate) I never went out of my way to just force drawing mouths the way I do because I'm obsessed with finding a "style" to call my own. The way I draw is the accumulation of the stuff I like and the stuff I know, and it'll slowly change more and more as I see different things and learn different things, because I can already name parts where it clearly has changed over the years.

You claim (for whatever reason) that you aren't influenced by Japanese stuff, but the reality is that anyone even slightly familiar with the common tropes can see the influence in the images you posted. It's really confusing to see you get offended by the name.

[vineris]

Here's some of his sketches from life, just going out and drawing people. I was an illustration student at a college with an animation program, and the animators kicked all our butts in knowledge of anatomy.

I lost the link to that blog about a year back and I forgot the name so I couldn't find it again. Thanks for posting it!

[Zilkenian]

Your personal style is just the accumulation the the things you like doing or seeing. It comes from learning and exposing yourself to a variety of things. Your personal style is you unconsciously saying to yourself "I like doing it this way".

When you're telling yourself "no, the nose should look like this because it's more stylish and original", then you're going about it wrong.

If I can make an example, I like drawing big mouths with teeth. Because I like animals with teeth. Because I like artists who draw big mouths with teeth. Because I hate the type of styles that go out of their way to undermine the size of the mouth and the visibility of the teeth (like most anime). It's not something I forced on myself, (I do sometimes draw tiny mouths, when I find it funny and appropriate) I never went out of my way to just force drawing mouths the way I do because I'm obsessed with finding a "style" to call my own. The way I draw is the accumulation of the stuff I like and the stuff I know, and it'll slowly change more and more as I see different things and learn different things, because I can already name parts where it clearly has changed over the years.

You claim (for whatever reason) that you aren't influenced by Japanese stuff, but the reality is that anyone even slightly familiar with the common tropes can see the influence in the images you posted. It's really confusing to see you get offended by the name.

*Mouths opens to the floor*.....I...lol, in just some paragraphs, you just said all I usually do, just draw what I like. Lot of people told me I should stop doing that and find my style, that's why I wanted to find it.
So...the way I was doing is alright? AMAZING!!! One thing I do well, one hundred to go...XD

Sorry, but, you know, manga is so beautiful and all, but is like a trap: you have to follow so many rules you get tired of them, and all of sudden you find yourself trying to escape from them. Could happen the same with Marvel, DC or any style known in the whole world, not just manga.
I don't want to "draw so beautiful like the others", I want to draw "beautiful like I want", but I still have those manga references stuck in my mind. That's what makes me angry.