guide for people new to CA and how to kill the art community

[Randis]

Finally Fantasy Finished

[dpaint]

You don't have to be a restaurant chef to know when food is bad.


True but you do have to be one to correct the problem. Telling someone you don't like their work or you think something is wrong with it, is an opinion not a critique. Unless you have the skill to actually fix the problem its useless to the artist receiving it.

[vineris]

Unless you have the skill to actually fix the problem its useless to the artist receiving it.

No it's not. If you get a range of opinions you can gauge whether you actually have a problem. If you do have a problem, the opinions can help you narrow it down so you can fix it more quickly. Is it as good as a skilled artist just telling you how to fix the problem outright? No. But since artists would rather spend their time drawing than critiquing, you need to be able to take advantage of all the tools you have instead of waiting around for someone busy to get back to you.

[Velocity Kendall]

I agree with Vin. Sometimes you get a client who cant draw for shit, but theyve got a knack for telling you the right things to do to make the work better. I dont understand it but you just learn to trust them and their terrible scribbled drawings.

[Arshes Nei]

It all depends on several factors, really.

What is the goal, who understands it, who is being paid, who is paying attention to these factors.

When you get a critique with people who are not invested in the result (like paying for it or being paid) it doesn't matter if the critiques are from skilled artists or not because they may give good information for some parts - but lack of investment may be a problem if they don't understand the end goal.

A teacher who has been paid, or a peer with a more vested interest can give you valuable feedback.

A client who can't draw for shit will still know what he/she wants (though you have nightmare clients) so they may have a better focus for the end result. And yes, sometimes the opposite happens and you're stuck with a piece you're less than happy with.

With receiving and giving critiques...well just have to pick and choose your battles with what works best for you.

[Star Eater]

Yeah, I'm down with that too. I've done work for publishers which I
wont put in my portfolio, but they were to spec, to the brief. All that
matters to me is that the guy paying me is 110% happy. I put my tastes
aside.

A private painting or commission gives me a bit more leeway. Generally
I find throwing in a little bit extra there has always been beneficial.

[QueenGwenevere]

It all depends on the feedback and the context.

Most of the audience for what I do will NOT be artists. So feedback from non-artists can be extremely useful for gauging whether I'm communicating what I intended to the people who will actually see it. If I draw a snake eating an elephant and non-artists say to me "that's a neat picture of a hat," then I know I did something wrong. Non-artist feedback can also give you a feel for how well something clicks with an intended audience - it's great market research.

Honestly, this is one of the reasons I post comics on DeviantArt... There may be a lot of hobbyists and noobs there who are clueless about technical issues, but there are also a LOT of comic fans, and how they react to my comics gives me a pretty good gauge as to how well the comics are working with their intended audience. And if people read my comics and are confused by something, or misunderstand the action, that's a clue that what I drew wasn't clear. They might not be able to tell me WHY something wasn't clear, but they can tell me when it isn't, and I can sort it out from there.

It's like canaries in a coal mine.

Neil Gaiman said something about it, I don't remember the exact quote, but in essence:
When someone tells you there's something wrong with your work, they're probably right.
When they try to tell you WHAT is wrong with your work, they're probably wrong.

[LordLouis]

What always strikes me about the critique centre is that 80% of the stuff there is the usual "I'm just starting out, here is my first sketch". For all these people that just need to be directed to Loomis and the like (including me), it doesn't need dpaint to say that. Anyone who lasted longer than a few months could.

[Rotor]

A small can of worms I've opened here perhaps.
Ofcourse the chef analogue is oversimplified, but stands a point I think.
Some people may have a head for thinking visually and can figure out how stuff should work, in theory, but lack the needed skillset to fully express themselves at that time for example.
I also think one would still be better off weighing all critique considering the work (your work) in question. Take what you can and discard the rest.
I've received good critique from both very skilled people as well as people starting out, and for both I have been thankful.

But hey what do I know.

[Dusty]

Am I the only one seeing the irony here?
Izi, just the other day you were getting insanely worked up about how this forum is going to hell because people are being trollish, yet this original post is rife with sarcasm and condescension. I mean, I laughed...that's not what I have a problem with. In fact, I agree with most of the shit you said. But you can't have it both ways. It seems like you want this to be some kind of highly sophisticated forum where everyone speaks like professors or something, but you (as you admitted) are clearly just as guilty of the things that you were raising hell about a few days ago.

[Randis]

You don't have to be a restaurant chef to know when food is bad.

Indeed most individuals could spot various anomalies in a painting they are looking at and those with interest in the subject
may well be capable differentiating wanted and unwanted anomalies or in other words, telling apart style from mistakes.
If you create pictures for the masses or certain focus groups then the opinion of the consumer is vital, your art needs to be
able to communicate the subject. Working for clients you will always, even if it is only on a high level, receive feedback from
your clients.

If you however create personal art, if you paint for your self, then it is a different story. Others may be able to point out
technical issues but in terms of content there really is not much to say because the work is customized to fit the taste of a
single person.

Very important is the fact that this is a concept art forum with a focus on topics related with games, film, anime, comics...
If you were to present your art to general population you can expect incredibly mixed results and this is where you have to
learn how to take a hit. All feedback is useful, you will learn how the general population reacts to your choice of content,
you will learn how people who are not familiar with your genre view your work and depending on where you exhibit your
work you might get to read uncensored, candid and sometimes very rude or mean comments.

If you don't listen to others you will not make good progress, simple as that but you have to learn to filter BS and grow a thick skin as well.
But most importantly you have to learn to be honest to yourself because deep down most artists know what they do wrong but instead of
fixing they spend a lot of effort to find excuses and then feel even more butt-hurt if someone is pointing out the week points.
It hurts even more if the person who points out the mistakes is not an artist.

That is why most communities have rules, we try to be polite to each other and give constructive feedback but in the world out there you need
to learn to take some hits as many people will not even recognize your work as art. Not all feedback comes with the intend to help.

[Velocity Kendall]

/\ [thanks button]

[Rotor]

Indeed, well said Randis.

[Izi]

You can brand anything, so I wasn't referring to /nicks that have become branded somehow, for example Android (Android easily calls to mind Andrew Jones phonetically)

I have two artists in TAI who go by /nicks so this is a matter of calling yourself something fairly unique, consistently and not having one name on the forums which you do not use anywhere else. Example: I used to go by the nick "Lady Hydralisk". How do you think that would work out for me in SEO? Not very well!

Am I the only one seeing the irony here?
Izi, just the other day you were getting insanely worked up about how this forum is going to hell because people are being trollish, yet this original post is rife with sarcasm and condescension. I mean, I laughed...that's not what I have a problem with. In fact, I agree with most of the shit you said. But you can't have it both ways. It seems like you want this to be some kind of highly sophisticated forum where everyone speaks like professors or something, but you (as you admitted) are clearly just as guilty of the things that you were raising hell about a few days ago.

I like getting insanely worked up it's how I roll. I was upset about people bullying, not being trollish. I don't care about trolling at all I don't know where you got that idea. I just got banned from Encyclopedia Dramatica.

Sarcasm and condescension in and of itself, if it is not a personal attack, and it does not incite hate is not trolling or bullying. I drew the elf guy like 10 years ago so, it's my art. I admit to making all of these mistakes at one time or another.

Nice replies +1

[Pavel Sokov]

I don't get why more people don't use their real name on CA. Your art is a brand, and you are the face of it. If you want to be successful it certainly is necessary people know who you are and recognize your name.

[Arshes Nei]

I don't get why more people don't use their real name on CA. Your art is a brand, and you are the face of it. If you want to be successful it certainly is necessary people know who you are and recognize your name.

Many reasons. Some people don't feel their art is successful yet so why brand it?

If your name is John Smith it fucking sucks considering how many people share the same name

[Maledict]

*words of wisdom*

Well said Randis, well. Fucking. Said.

I've gone through a bit of a catharsis and realization, recently - and ca.org, and a real support group around me, has helped.

Where's the fucking up-vote button when you need it the most?

(Oh, how's Bangkok treating you all this time Randis? I *might* come over and have a visit, if I actually know your location - and Skan as well. Born and raised in Bangkok, then HK, now in Australia, etc )

[egerie]

...Or, having a complex name that no one can say/remember properly.

Remembering and associating art with names / avatars is, indeed, getting more complex... (my memory can take only so much too) I think if you want to change either now, it's a commitment you need to stick with for a LONG time as consistency is key. I've been pondering on these things too, wondering if branding with my real name is really worth it.


-Aline Schleger
P.S.: It was early 2000, coming from sijun and I was young and foolish and etc.
What about Splooge_Demon?

[Dusty]

I like getting insanely worked up it's how I roll. I was upset about people bullying, not being trollish. I don't care about trolling at all I don't know where you got that idea. I just got banned from Encyclopedia Dramatica.

Sarcasm and condescension in and of itself, if it is not a personal attack, and it does not incite hate is not trolling or bullying. I drew the elf guy like 10 years ago so, it's my art. I admit to making all of these mistakes at one time or another.

Haha, fair enough.

[Izi]

For all the talk of the thank/like button (which I also enjoy) one of the coolest things about the pre-thank button years is that if you said something interesting, people would take the time to go to your sketchbook and give you look and bump you with a crit/compliment.

You can still do that. Randis also has a great forum at wecookart.com so you could thank him by giving him a visit!


Oh and compliments can be constructive too. If you tell the person what specifically is working. This doesn't need to take up a lot of txt. Over the years my compliments kept up a pattern of

"color color color, shocking, color, color color, color"

So I learned to push in the direction of my strengths.

[Leonor]

You don't have to be a restaurant chef to know when food is bad.


True but you do have to be one to correct the problem. Telling someone you don't like their work or you think something is wrong with it, is an opinion not a critique. Unless you have the skill to actually fix the problem its useless to the artist receiving it.

Actually, you don't have to be a chef. You can point out to a tutorial or book by someone who knows how to fix the problem. I might not be a chef but if someone is having a problem making soufflé and I want to help, I Google and I might find a solution by a chef.

That said, the OP is wasting time ranting and should draw more.

[Izi]

That said, the OP is wasting time ranting and should draw more.

YEP

[Maledict]

YEP

Addressing issues is *never* a waste of time. In fact, it'll probably save time in the long run, as it will force the issue now, and mitigate anything potentially harmful down the road when the can of worms gets even more rotten and fermented.

[JFierce]

I still prefer the thanks button. Lets me know when a joke is probably funny or if there are some words of wisdom if I'm skimming threads. and obviously the simple fact that it can show if people agree with a point, or if someone said something that others were meaning to say it allows people to just click thanks without making a ton of posts simply stating "I agree with this".

[sone_one]

Addressing issues is *never* a waste of time. In fact, it'll probably save time in the long run, as it will force the issue now, and mitigate anything potentially harmful down the road when the can of worms gets even more rotten and fermented.

what issues? i might be missing something important here... i dont like it neither that ca.org is not like its been 2003-2006 with a small comunity and all the big guys hanging out here... but thats how it is and nothing is going to change that... its a non-issue.

[Maledict]

what issues? i might be missing something important here... i dont like it neither that ca.org is not like its been 2003-2006 with a small comunity and all the big guys hanging out here... but thats how it is and nothing is going to change that... its a non-issue.

Oh, I wasn't referencing what is happening here, now. I think the ca.org community is perfectly healthy as it is. What I was referencing to was the principle of addressing/forcing issues that people would rather not face, and rather hide and bury and pretend it is not there. Only delaying the problem until the problem gets worse and suddenly explodes. Kind of like someone telling people that they have to do controlled burns of forest undergrowth, rather than let it build up, and having one small spark ignite a raging inferno that does more damage in the end.

[Arshes Nei]

I still prefer the thanks button. Lets me know when a joke is probably funny or if there are some words of wisdom if I'm skimming threads. and obviously the simple fact that it can show if people agree with a point, or if someone said something that others were meaning to say it allows people to just click thanks without making a ton of posts simply stating "I agree with this".

Yeah it's not that the Thanks is being removed permanently it's just an add-on that has to make its way back once one can figure out how to migrate the data and such. Didn't help that there were XSS issues with vbul earlier that had to be resolved.

[JFierce]

Sweet, good to know.

[bcarman]

Yeah it's not that the Thanks is being removed permanently it's just an add-on that has to make its way back once one can figure out how to migrate the data and such. Didn't help that there were XSS issues with vbul earlier that had to be resolved.

That damn vbul.

[Mewball]

what about telling people to not steel your ultra original OC?