Breaking Gender Roles

[bcarman]

Actually, I think there are a massive amount of people who instinctively hate attractive people and assign them negative characteristics (and even whole life stories) before ever talking to them.

I knew there was a reason why I don't have any friends.

[Velocity Kendall]

people who were so thin skinned, reactive, and so demanding of control of all things they found emotionally distressing in the local environment... that they were fired for the sake of the workplace.

hey we're called freelancers and we have names OK?

[dpaint]

I knew there was a reason why I don't have any friends.

But Bill, we'll always have SSI together.

[ArviK]

Prehistoric men tended to choose women with larger pelvis, it helped childbirth. To answer that, women developed larger rear region, more fat deposits, so everyone looked the same, women with larger pelvis and women without it. Nice little anecdote.
Beauty ideal way back was different, as i recall fat chicks were considered beautiful. But the reason was that food was scarce. If you had enough food that you got fat, it meant that somehow with your skills, or your biology you were above others. And thus you were a better mate.
Being fat today shows nothing, food is abundant. If anything it shows being unhealty or poor selfcontrol. Im kinda fat too, but not proud of it, plus d00ds cant be fat right?
IMHO body image is created by society, but its the biology that ultimately drives that. And its pointless to go against biology, you cant beat it no matter how noble the goal. Oh and you can tell the difference in a fat or strong chick in real life. I dont know what the visual cues are, but there is a difference.

[manlybrian]

I hope this revolution doesn't ruin Power Girl. She would have nothing left to offer the nerd community.

[Velocity Kendall]

"as i recall fat chicks were considered beautiful."

This is the Venus of Willendorf. Shes about 23000 years old and looking pretty good for her age I think.



Ive no idea what these peoples names are. Theyre about 23 years old. Tell me a nice safe cave, a warm fire to keep out the snow and wolves, some animal pelts and one or both of these lovelies doesnt sound good.




Actually the attractiveness to men of adult vs childlike (peramorphic vs neontonous) features in women during wartime vs peacetime has been tracked and makes interesting reading.

Neoteny is the preservation of childlike characteristics into adulthood. Interestingly adult bird "morphology appears to be equivalent to the juvenile stage of the dinosaurs from which they evolved." Why neotonous features were selected for is unknown although there are plenty of possible reasons. Preservation of juvenile features into adulthood also marks out humans from other great apes.
Theres maybe a gene or suite of genes that might be switched on in birds that cause them to grow into some kind of saurian style adult. That would be awesome! And maybe humans would mature into... fuck knows, Protectors I guess!?

http://www.isegoria.net/2012/06/did-...ive-dinosaurs/

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

I hope this revolution doesn't ruin Power Girl. She would have nothing left to offer the nerd community.

Well, they got rid of the boob window anyway. And the long sleeves. And the bob. And really, anything that would make her recognizable. That thing on her chest looks vaguely like a P, maybe?

I think they actually made her skinnier...

[Elwell]

They actually revised the new PG costume (for the better, overall, although the "P" is still goofy) after that image was released. Here's the published version of the Perez Cover, along with Kevin Maguire's variant:

[Sidharth Chaturvedi]

They actually revised the new PG costume (for the better, overall, although the "P" is still goofy) after that image was released. Here's the published version of the Perez Cover, along with Kevin Maguire's variant:

Not crazy about it at all, but man that looks much better. Was the public shaming that bad?

[Chris Bennett]

IMHO body image is created by society, but its the biology that ultimately drives that. And its pointless to go against biology, you cant beat it no matter how noble the goal.

I would agree, as most would, that the brain's deep survival wiring strongly governs this.
But the way it manifests itself is surprisingly adaptable to social influences.

Women's fashion is an expression of how these surface preoccupations shift - you only have to think of the flat chested 20s, the small waisted 50s, the tom boyish 60s, the square shouldered 80s and the coy-pixy-like current decade to see this.

Regarding women, it seems to me that the limbic system (emotional centre of the brain) is surprisingly open to the pliability of the unconscious filters with regard to their response to shifting cultural status cues.
For example, the fat guy with a cigar standing by big new car creates a rush in many modern women that it would fail to do with her rainforest-dwelling sisters.

Regarding men, the sexual impulse is less governed by the limbic system's influence and seems to be a more direct response to the automatic brain filters switching on and off to incomming visual patterns.

However, for both men and women, the adaptability of our response is always rooted in the same survival/reproduction preoccupations of our fundamental animal makeup.
The tray upon which it is served, and the vessels upon it may change, but the dinner remains essentially the same.

[manlybrian]

They actually revised the new PG costume (for the better, overall, although the "P" is still goofy) after that image was released. Here's the published version of the Perez Cover, along with Kevin Maguire's variant:

It's just not the same.

[Thera Dratara]

Well, I think it's not just a matter of idealised woman-fat woman things, but rather more diversity needed in portrayed fictional characters in general.

I mean, really, when it comes down to it, the charisma of a person or character is much more likely to give people the idea they're beautiful than proportions ever are. But then, implying that charisma in the first place is an art of it's own.

[Ameza]

Well...I'm back to the Batwoman picture again.

I was browsing through this on DA, since I found the whole thing a little strange. Sure her picture is fine, but there are still some flaws in it. Then I noticed a link that someone posted of an old Batwoman cover, and voila, she seems to have copied a lot from that picture. Also explains why her light and shadow made no sense in her picture, because she used the same shading as in the cover. Not saying it's the same picture...but it explains a lot for me.

http://www.comicbookbrain.com/_image...ue-1-cover.jpg

But on the whole body type thing, I think the image of a woman today is stupid. I'm a really thin body type, but the likelyhood of me having head sized breast on that body is impossible.

I think artist that respect the different bodytypes should try to remember that and stick to those ideas, and not fall into drawing to "please" the market. Which I'm sure can happen for artist that start to work for big companies, for example in the comic industry.

[Aly Fell]

Hmm... well spotted Ameza. In which case it's a double whammy, also making the original crit invalid to a degree, seeing as that 'presentation' of women has indeed made it on to a cover, despite being, er... 'copied'.

Perhaps though we could possibly move on one day from valuing what a woman looks like as more important than anything else. I shan't hold my breath...

I think artist that respect the different bodytypes should try to remember that and stick to those ideas, and not fall into drawing to "please" the market. Which I'm sure can happen for artist that start to work for big companies, for example in the comic industry.

If only it were that easy, as when an artist starts with an existing IP they have to conform their approach to some extent. Of course they are employed for their 'style', but you won't last long if you try to be a maverick, unless, of course, you're approached to redesign or invent based upon your way of working. It is possible to change things slowly, but it has to be done more... stealthily... more clandestinely...

[Vermis]

Tell me a nice safe cave, a warm fire to keep out the snow and wolves, some animal pelts and one or both of these lovelies doesnt sound good.

If the Venus and the first girl are what float your boat, fine (hurrah for diversity and all that); but I already know what body types I'm attracted to, ta all the same. I'll just stick to the modern world with things in it like nutritional science and the occassional stairmaster.

Also, weird dinosaur tangent. Comics don't have enough neornithines?

[Ameza]

It is possible to change things slowly, but it has to be done more... stealthily... more clandestinely...

Yes that's true, I'm sure it's very hard in this industry. But, let's then at least, very stealthily, try to keep our goals

[keeptime]

Then I noticed a link that someone posted of an old Batwoman cover, and voila, she seems to have copied a lot from that picture. Also explains why her light and shadow made no sense in her picture, because she used the same shading as in the cover. Not saying it's the same picture...but it explains a lot for me.

http://www.comicbookbrain.com/_image...ue-1-cover.jpg

Called it.

[Vermis]

It is possible to change things slowly, but it has to be done more... stealthily... more clandestinely...

Yes that's true, I'm sure it's very hard in this industry. But, let's then at least, very stealthily, try to keep our goals

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about big boobs in comics, not reds under the bed.

What is it about unrealistic body images in comics that has to be dealt with 'clandestinely'? Sites like Eschergirls seem to do okay by shouting it from the rooftops: "lolol look at this stupid art!" Are you two names in the industry, planning on doing a reverse Wally Wood and gradually shrinking Power Girl's breasts until someone notices; or are you just engaging in a spot of mutual back-patting? What is your top-secret classified idea for belling the cat?

[kev ferrara]

It doesn't take much hesitation if someone said something racist in the workplace, so I don't see why the handwringing over something sexist.

Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises

Complex Question: two unrelated points are conjoined as a single proposition

Prejudicial Language: value or moral goodness is attached to believing the author

False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly dissimilar

---------

The Power Girl switch: Can't you feel all the 13 year old girls suddenly becoming secure in their body images? We can all rest easy now in our piety. Except that... *sigh* ... it was all just a craven attempt to boost flagging sales by pandering to a particular demographic, wasn't it?

I can't wait to see how they button up Vampirella.

[Aly Fell]

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about big boobs in comics, not reds under the bed.

What is it about unrealistic body images in comics that has to be dealt with 'clandestinely'? Sites like Eschergirls seem to do okay by shouting it from the rooftops: "lolol look at this stupid art!" Are you two names in the industry, planning on doing a reverse Wally Wood and gradually shrinking Power Girl's breasts; or are you just engaging in a spot of mutual back-patting? What is your top-secret classified idea for belling the cat?

"Names in the industry!" Huh..? Cheers for the promotion. And the last time I patted a back was the stray cat that came round this morning for 'Munchies'.

As for my ideas, I can't tell you, they wouldn't be 'clandestine' then would they?

[bcarman]

But Bill, we'll always have SSI together.

A tear formed delicately in my left eye until, too large for the duct, rolled gently down my cheek.

[Arshes Nei]

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about big boobs in comics, not reds under the bed.

What is it about unrealistic body images in comics that has to be dealt with 'clandestinely'? Sites like Eschergirls seem to do okay by shouting it from the rooftops: "lolol look at this stupid art!" Are you two names in the industry, planning on doing a reverse Wally Wood and gradually shrinking Power Girl's breasts until someone notices; or are you just engaging in a spot of mutual back-patting? What is your top-secret classified idea for belling the cat?

I just thought it was about more diversity. Guess a something for everyone. Even sometimes the men in comics were set with the same body type when previously there was no problem with different body types. Magneto and Scott Summers should not have been built like bodybuilders. Scott was calle d "Slim" for crying out loud.

I do not have a problem with the existence of a Power Girl and Emma Frost. I have a problem when every superhero needs to look like a Power Girl or Emma Frost

There is a problem with the poses for women, but even I don't necessarily agree 100% with Eschergirls remakes either.

False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly dissimilar

---------

The Power Girl switch: Can't you feel all the 13 year old girls suddenly becoming secure in their body images? We can all rest easy now in our piety. Except that... *sigh* ... it was all just a craven attempt to boost flagging sales by pandering to a particular demographic, wasn't it?

I can't wait to see how they button up Vampirella.

How utterly ironic.

[Deadlyhazard]

It really just comes down to variety for me. When most of the entertainment products I buy compromise their character designs of 90% muscular males, and for females, 90% skinny big-boobed females, it becomes frustrating. I understand that sex sells, but honestly -- that's such a low brow approach to commercial art. There are other ways of making things successful, and that doesn't mean you have to have the same character design in the large majority of your characters in your book, movie, game, whatever.

Have some good writing, some good cinematography, have interesting gameplay mechanics -- you don't need to reel your audience in by making everything sexy, unless that's the literal intention of the product -- to sell sex (I can't even think of any products I respect that do this).

Gender roles are fine if they're put within the right context. But to have almost every character in almost every product (this is really a problem with Fantasy stuff) muscular or baby-doll-sexy is very boring and generic at this point. There's so much more than can be touched on with the amount of variety in body types out there and it's annoying that so many products that I enjoy employ the same body-type designs over and over.

It's a frustration to see this over and over in what are otherwise quite enjoyable products. I just want to see some variation in stuff, a little more than we are seeing now.

[kev ferrara]

Not a hard concept to grasp: Superheroes are idealized humans.

If you don't want idealization look at photos and read Gogol.

[Arshes Nei]

Not a hard concept to grasp: Superheroes are idealized humans.

If you don't want idealization look at photos and read Gogol.

So what other logical fallacies do you want to pull out while accusing others of making?

That somehow asking people to make diverse characters because they're "Superheroes" fit some kind of master mold. There are different type of athletes and different body types.

Women don't all have to be built the same and variety is fine because there are different idealizations of the body.

And to turn this argument on your little spats about who should and should not be looking at or reading. If you don't like this discussion you can kindly go and do something productive yourself.

[sipher_0]

I once had a drawing instructor who emphasized that a more androgynous rendering & interpretation of the human figure was something to be sought after.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/to...d-or-just-men/
Unfortunately, the rendering of the female form with [huge] mammary glands does seem to be deeply rooted as more, a cultural obsession as opposed to just an esthetic
preference.

[Aly Fell]

I can't wait to see how they button up Vampirella.

I don't think 'they' should. Vampirella has a definitive look, and a definitive outfit that is rarely strayed from, and there's nothing wrong with that. No-one here, as far as I read it, is suggesting 'superheroes' should cover up. Heck they tried to change Wonder Woman and to be honest removed all the magic from the costume. Wonder Woman is a tough cartoon character despite the fact she dresses in a bathing costume. But the status quo exists because the power behind preserving the audience wants it that way. And no it's not some plot or 'clandestine' illuminati bollocks, it's just laziness, pure and simple. The thing is the geek world has grown ASTRONOMICALLY, it's not just teenage boys any more. This isn't 1966. The biggest movie productions these days are superhero movies, and their target audience is not just those same boys; it's everybody. However on one level comics hasn't recognised that fact, and is still stuck in some hyperborean period where all women had tits like watermelons and all men looked like a condom stuffed with walnuts. Now geeks bemoan the watering down of their beloved icons, and those who've arrived on the scene wonder why they are invisible in this comic world, and why they aren't represented in some way. Now for the 'benefit of all' would it not be wise to at least TRY and diversify a bit more?

[dpaint]

I've found most main stream comics ridiculous and boring since Simon Bisley started drawing men and women with steroid induced musculature. You can ask for anything you want from corporations , you can choose not to spend your money with companies who don't listen and I may agree, but you lose me at people bringing up the idea that it needs to be done for girls self esteem or for children in general.
That's crap.

Poor parenting is to blame for those problems, not comics or media in general. The argument that people need to better society is the same argument the fundie, right wing, Christians trot out every time they see two men or two women kissing on TV or someone having sex before marriage.

Its ruining their values; well their values aren't mine and I don't care if women have low self esteem because their boyfriend wants to buy them a boob job to make them look like wonder woman. Pick another partner or fly solo. Its not the job of publishers to fix this. Make your own comics. Fill it full of LGBT people dressed like fundamentalist Muslims. Unless you have a better story line and art than the gratuitous ones out there selling sex your argument will never hold water. You're just selling to a different crowd without upping the quality; just creating more crap with a different point of view. Always easier to bitch about something like Escher Girls does than it is to make something better.

[bish0p2004]

Women don't all have to be built the same and variety is fine because there are different idealizations of the body.

Of course they don't have to be built that way, but some people choose to draw them that way just like some people only choose to draw muscular males (which surprisingly, you don't see as many complaints on).

Personally, I do like to see a variety of body types, but I will never complain if someone chooses to only draw busty females or muscular males.

[Aly Fell]

If Alan Moore can do it in 1984, I have no idea why it can't be done today:

The Ballad of Halo Jones

"In his introductions to the three 1986 Titan editions, Moore described its genesis. The story was designed from the outset to avoid the typical 2000 AD story elements: "guns, guys and gore." Moore said that he had "no inclination to unleash yet another "Tough Bitch With A Disintegrator And An Extra 'Y' Chromosome" upon the world". The idea to base the strip around an ordinary, unremarkable woman, typical of the society she lived in, was also very different for 2000 AD."