after being critiqued.....

[IIIzoeIII]

I have had lots of help from you guys recently and I feel like all the advise is starting to sink in a little bit.

this is a super basic layout I started.I tried to pull away from the characters standing still or being perfectly horizontal. I use the spear to split the piece with a diagonal line.The cape is helping the motion that the figure is coming down at the beast and I broke into 2 main sources of light cool and warm which I've been getting advise to do.
what do you guys think? any suggestions

[Coyox]

I think that its great that you're taking critiques so seriously.

The best thing I would suggest doing for yourself at this point is to step away from your monitor and really take a look at this (and all of your pieces) from a distance. Does it read at 10 feet? 15 feet? A lot is getting lost in this from the amount of styles being used, as well as the bright colors at the same values.

I'm not sure what exactly is going on with the anti-aliasing on half of this? Try to stick with one style of coloring.

I'd suggest doing a bit of studying on color theory and look at some tutorials for photoshop that don't include use of the smudge tool.

[TinyBird]

Where are your thumbnails for this?
This might be a good read for you too: http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012...-planning.html

[Artfix]

It sounds like you've gotten some good advice, and we are thrilled to see that you're listening!

But its still important that you do the advice in the correct order. Sure, artists work differently and you'll have to find what's best for you, but I can't recommend starting a painting the way you have. You MUST do thumbs first! In 3 or 4 values ONLY.

No matter of colors(even perfect ones) or capes, or spears, will make this any better. Make small roughs with only 3 or 4 values and make interesting, overlapping shapes. Use rhythm and movement like you have been learning.

I did a little paintover. I added some humor but I don't mean to poke fun at you--just being silly.

Good luck!

[Chris Sanders]

I agree with TB, i would much rather see some little DRAWN out thumbs and then some colour comps afterwards. i think this image could be improved at the sketch phase.

How are you creating these, it looks like your taking 3d then using a mouse and a smudge brush?

[IIIzoeIII]

this is just a layout lol
the tools and everything are pretty irrelevant
this is my thumb I work in around the default resolution of 300.000 dpi these are like 500 I think I like some of the advice I have got like the back ground I know needs a bit more,this was really just a color and composition mock-up
so is I want the beast to still look huge and the foreground figure to be big enough to keep interest which do I resize to break out or the same size figures? and is having to objects of equal size really bad composition? it seems perfectly fine to me...explain.

below I make my argument on the figures pose though cause I worked on it for a rather long time and found it was best executed this way..I think maybe the low resolution thumb is making it hard to see how hes arched and drawing back also his head is facing the target object which is a dead give away where that spear is going

[IIIzoeIII]

I agree with TB, i would much rather see some little DRAWN out thumbs and then some colour comps afterwards. i think this image could be improved at the sketch phase.

How are you creating these, it looks like your taking 3d then using a mouse and a smudge brush?

yes I use 3D models to get the proportions exact then just paint over some quick coloring
once the thumb is settled I go back to a pretty detailed pencil sketch and scan that into the art program from there it's layers and days of painting

[Chris Sanders]

fair enough. I would personally like to see you paint do it all 2d (or at least be able to before skipping the figure construction) as its a well worth skill to learn.

Can we see some of these thumbs?

[Lightship69]

Hi matey

I am just trying to help you out with the pose and the action of the spear thrower. I think that basically the gesture is off! the balance is wrong! and the twist in his body is wrong, just my opinion mind you.
Have a look at javelin throwers in the athletics arena now they are an extreme I know but the action is still similar.
They have an arm out to help guide the eye and aid balance and also a definate leading leg with an almost savage twist in the body that helps to generate the energy of the throw. Your guy seems to be falling down after taking a hit not getting a throw at a monster.

Ok to show you what I mean and give you a chuckle I did an very very fast sketch based loosely on yours to show you what I mean. I would also point out that the gesture is impostant here not the poor guys terrible anatomy flaws!!



I hope this helps you out but if not it may just give you a chuckle and prove that we are not all experts in here!! LOL

all the best mate

[Velocity Kendall]

"so is I want the beast to still look huge and the foreground figure to be big enough to keep interest which do I resize to break out or the same size figures? and is having to objects of equal size really bad composition? it seems perfectly fine to me...explain."

having two objects of the same size makes them seem the same size.
so exactly the opposite of what you said you want to achieve...?


look an how relative size and positon can enhance the hugh monster/tiny victim relationship...

[IIIzoeIII]

I really did want that anti gravity look like maybe he's jumping off a high mountain or flying or whatever leaving that part up to the viewer I like the idea of floating like the Sistine chapel figures it's just art and left unexplained for fun I did a version that explains it by giving him wings I kind of like it but eh idk
and I also pulled really far back from the picture and thought the red/orange needed to be broken so I simply added another rock on the right I think it helped break that stuff up also I added 2 figures in the background to sort of give a scale to the monster and blurred the monster a little cause it looked too focused to be that far away

[IIIzoeIII]

hey this is just some freestyle stuff without my 3D models
I think it's ok but not nearly what can be done with accurate models to pose for me...after taking the plunge I can't go back to this kind of thing.

[TinyBird]

hey this is just some freestyle stuff without my 3D models
I think it's ok but not nearly what can be done with accurate models to pose for me....

And when you say "accurate models" I hope you mean real people, not 3D models?

[Chris Sanders]

And when you say "accurate models" I hope you mean real people, not 3D models?

i think you'll find he means the latter

[EagleGrove]

In lightship's sketch... I'm assuming the dude just pulled back his arm, wouldn't the cape turn the other way? Or did I miss something important again?

@Zoe: Don't get too attached to your 3D models, using them too often as a crutch will greatly impair your progress in learning anatomy. Making quick thumbs with just silhouettes in black and white is a lot more beneficial to your progress (both lifelong artistic progress and individual paintings).

[IIIzoeIII]

I have anatomy books and tons of photos to help me with "realism" if I get stumped on something..the models are for one thing..to make perfect form when I say "perfect form" I'm not even talking about physical human perfection I mean having a real 3D object in space soooo......like there is no room for error such as the size of a hand that is behind someone's back,if I was going to draw that freestyle it would be a guess as to how big it would be..ya see what I'm saying..a lot of artists don't draw people very well cause they make hands too big and heads too small..it doesn't look human and I notice it before anything else when I see a picture..I see a lot of people on here and their paintings are fantastic their colors and backgrounds even their composition is good but then they will take a crack at a human and the whole piece goes down in flames.Figures are my main discipline.

[Lightship69]

Hi EagleGrove

In answer to your point yes thats entirely possible!! the cape is a heavy waterproof fabric normally so it probably wouldnt fly around in the breeze but would certainly react to violent movements in unexpected ways, like whiping around and bunching and flaping.

all the best and I'm glad its got you thinking.

P.S. this is a general comment just to ask "would it really hurt you guys to click the little button on the bottom right of a post and say thanks once in a while?" people are trying to help and a little curtesy would go a long way, thank you.

[Chris Sanders]

zoe - mistakes are part of the process. yes lots of people fail to draw people because they don't pit in the effort. and knowing instead of guessing will insure what you put down is correct, or to a point where it looks convincing. i personally love painting and drawing people and when i was younger all's i ever drew where superheros and monsters and stuff. no one can force you to learn how to draw people but like Eaglegrove said it will become a crutch and will bite you in the arse. try just working on your figure drawing in your spare time.

[IIIzoeIII]

zoe - mistakes are part of the process. yes lots of people fail to draw people because they don't pit in the effort. and knowing instead of guessing will insure what you put down is correct, or to a point where it looks convincing. i personally love painting and drawing people and when i was younger all's i ever drew where superheros and monsters and stuff. no one can force you to learn how to draw people but like Eaglegrove said it will become a crutch and will bite you in the arse. try just working on your figure drawing in your spare time.

I used to study and draw 24 7 but I got old and careless about certain things.I just want things to look a certain way now and I refuse to draw something 100% out of my head when I can make something way better..I don't have pride anymore,pride was my biggest crutch when I was younger and it always held me back from making the kind of art I wanted to.I used to think photos and human models etc were "cheating" I can draw just fine without any help at all but when I want to make something "real" I use all kinds of help to ensure I get what I wanted out of it...and it's way funner for me,and art should be about fun if it's not why make it?

[Velocity Kendall]

did you understand when I answered your question

""so is I want the beast to still look huge and the foreground figure to be big enough to keep interest which do I resize to break out or the same size figures? and is having to objects of equal size really bad composition? it seems perfectly fine to me...explain."

[Giacomo]

I have anatomy books and tons of photos to help me with "realism" if I get stumped on something..the models are for one thing..to make perfect form when I say "perfect form" I'm not even talking about physical human perfection I mean having a real 3D object in space soooo......like there is no room for error such as the size of a hand that is behind someone's back,if I was going to draw that freestyle it would be a guess as to how big it would be..ya see what I'm saying..a lot of artists don't draw people very well cause they make hands too big and heads too small..it doesn't look human and I notice it before anything else when I see a picture..I see a lot of people on here and their paintings are fantastic their colors and backgrounds even their composition is good but then they will take a crack at a human and the whole piece goes down in flames.Figures are my main discipline.

The main difficulty with using DAZ or Poser (which you seem to be doing here) is that the software doesn't understand gravity, lighting, gesture or contrapposto (look it up if you don't know) at all and as a result, you get images with "correct proportion" that look really dodgy. The screen capture you posted is a perfect example: that pose makes absolutely no sense, unless it's the pose of someone who fell out of an airplane and is lying broken and twisted on a rocky hillside. People (at least, live ones) just don't move like that in the real world.

3D software can be great for working out tricky issues of perspective and foreshortening, but right now you're just uncritically painting over whatever Poser gives you. Garbage in, garbage out.

[iambanana]

I don't have pride anymore,pride was my biggest crutch when I was younger and it always held me back from making the kind of art I wanted to.

My god, Marsellus, is that you?

[Coyox]

I used to study and draw 24 7 but I got old and careless about certain things.I just want things to look a certain way now and I refuse to draw something 100% out of my head when I can make something way better..I don't have pride anymore,pride was my biggest crutch when I was younger and it always held me back from making the kind of art I wanted to.I used to think photos and human models etc were "cheating" I can draw just fine without any help at all but when I want to make something "real" I use all kinds of help to ensure I get what I wanted out of it...and it's way funner for me,and art should be about fun if it's not why make it?

I'm very confused as to why you're being so defensive.... and dare I say, personal?
Whether or not you're using the correct material isn't the problem--- it's how well you're translating the reference or model.

I understand that you're using a model to paint over but that doesn't make it right in the 2D world. Especially if you're using a 3D program like Maya or Zbrush--- these programs fake perspective. Not that you have to sit down with a grid and figure it out perfectly. What you need to do is realize that "If it doesn't look right--- it isn't."

A client isn't going to care about your models and reference and perspective grid (not that a client is what this is for, just an example.) If the faked or real perspective doesn't translate to the viewer it doesn't matter. It's the finished product that matters and right now it isn't working.

Take into consideration what these people are saying. In regards to Kendall's comment--- I agree, and I think that the size you're trying to capture would work far better if you moved some things around.


On the 3D note, if you['re going to paint over something--- be sure to paint over the whole thing. If you miss chunks it just looks unfinished.

[Chris Sanders]

I totally agree with Coyox. As a 2D artist your best friend are your own eyes and your perception. You should allow them to guide you instead of software. if you want to do that then just create it all in 3d and then create a nice render.

Also as i've mentioned before... the smudge brush. It looks as if you've abused it here. if you want to use it you've got to make it make sense for the material your trying to render. lava maybe... rocks...possible but not worth the hassle.

[IIIzoeIII]

I'm so confused about this "fake perspective" thing...what are you talking about?
and again daz is just a basic form,the screen cap is clearly a spider-man pose so dynamic is what I was shooting for.They always pose him as crazy as they can so by comparison even mine is kinda timid.

and any pose that a human can make daz can make and that's all I need to get started.A lot of artists use those little wood doll things haha I think daz is a lot better than that.I could obviously pose and simply trace myself but I don't want to do it that way..you guys are falling to hard on rules..there are no rules in art there is no set way to draw anything.I just wanted to see what you guys thought about the color and composition of this..and not really on it's own but by comparison to my old stuff is this a better use of color and less stiff than my other work?
if there's times I seem defensive it's when something obviously doesn't apply like the spear being thrown off screen that's just saying something to say it..and not paying attention to what's even being shown.
or the drawing of the guy throwing the spear on the ground when my figure is in a free fall -doesn't apply- that's simply trying to tell me how to draw something when there is no law..I think my pose looks a lot more dynamic and artistic than just pulling back to launch a spear on foot..if it were a movie it would definitely be a "matrix" moment or the oracle from 300 in the trance


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLia-5heO5M

[IIIzoeIII]

did you understand when I answered your question

""so is I want the beast to still look huge and the foreground figure to be big enough to keep interest which do I resize to break out or the same size figures? and is having to objects of equal size really bad composition? it seems perfectly fine to me...explain."

idk? all the samples you have pics of the foreground figure is too small and the paintings as a whole look more landscape-ish..I was kinda lost at the relevance

[Velocity Kendall]

"I was kinda lost at the relevance......what are you talking about?..not paying attention to what's even being shown.doesn't apply-"


ha ha well fair enough bud. If you cant tell the difference or see anything worth learning there then you have bigger problems than poorly composed images.
put it this way, those images are awesome, and you can always learn a lot from awesome work.

we're just a sample of randoms. you can be assured if we think stuff about your image, others will be too. we're trying to help you. its no skin of our noses if you decide to ignore our advice.

im telling you now and im telling you straight, the daz figures look like corpses being jiggled around. its not working.

these are from sfrancian's and might help.



Look at the difference between your image, and something by Craig Mullins.
Look at his lighting, and compostiion, and rendering. its masterful.

[Artfix]

I think we answered your questions Zoe--no, we do not like your image. We made the mistake of elaborating for you.

We have mentioned thumbnails 3 or 4 times, and I haven't heard you say anything about it, Zoe. Are you willing to take steps to make good art or not? Doing thumbnails isn't a rule that is stripping you of your sense of self like you make it out to be. Its a tried and true method based on common sense. Doing thumbnails, starting small, starting simple, is a logical step in making anything.

If you are truly without pride, then you would be dropping everything to try what we're recommending. What have you got to lose by trying it our way? What have you got to lose?!

[Velocity Kendall]

ok what about this , tried to take my own advice for 20 mins

[IIIzoeIII]

see Velocity that is exactly the kind of painting I would have made before I was getting my work critiqued. it's dark...the main character is way too small he's perfectly vertical and takes up as much space as the monster...I have so far been told to rid my work of black use more color and duel light sources I have never even painted something this before with that much color and motion so that is what makes this so different.Also as far as "theme" goes your pic is portraying a much different story.The hero is going into like the gates of hell to find and slay the beast where my picture is the beast is coming out from the ground and destroying the land.."the hero is coming to the rescue" is my main theme.I also get no sense of matrix anti gravity from yours just looks like a dude standing there ready to cast a spear at a beast...

and artfix...do you like anyone's work?
I have seen you rip at some other decent artists on here to the point of being dare I say it? rude..at this point I want you to show me what you think is GOOD art.Cause I'm starting to think you aren't out to help anyone.I have yet to see how you would compose or fix this picture.At least velocity took it on putting his credibility on the line.I'd love for you to just blow me away with something I had never conceived.