ArtOrder Art Challenge

[Artfix]

Hey guys! I too am trying my hand at the artorder challenge. I've elected to do the "culture" test which means I'm trying to emulate the costume and culture of some sample artwork. The sample costumes have tons of layers and bright colors. A lot of dangly bits, and fur.

My challenge is to do a city guard to match this same society. But why would a guard have decorative layers? Why would they have dangly bits to get in the way?

So, does my guard look like he matches this society? Or any other suggestions? Should he have brighter colors maybe?

My art on the left, and sample art is on the right.
Thanks!

[Lightship69]

Hi matey

Post me a link so I know what the challenge is all about, sorry to be a bit thick but hey it is me after all and I really dont know anything about it sorry. I dont think the two guys in th sample look like they are from the same culture really, one I pegged as european and the other is sort of from nepal from the look of them but hey whatever.

I will try to comment for you though so here goes, looking at the guards costume looks okay colour wise as he is a guard and not very important. looking at him I would say that he needs a bit more armour and the sword itself could possibly do with being a scimitar or possibly a falchion/ tulwar type big curved chopper.
The sword belt should be down on his hip where it is not so rigid and allows for free movement, if he has to run it will hinder his movement.
I would like to see just him a bit larger so I can tell what he is wearing a little better, is the grey stuff chainmail? I cant tell.
The leg on his left is a bit odd looking too,
Tell you what mate seperate them out and post bigger images so that we can get a good look at them and make more constructive suggestions.

I shall loiter online in the hope you can post them individually and bigger and also I will raid my ref library for you.

all the best with it mate

[Giacomo]

My immediate thought is that the two figures in the "sample" piece don't seem to be from the same culture at all...the royal-looking man on the left feels very European and the ninja-in-fur on the right looks like a weird mashup of Japanese and Native American.

I suppose if it were me, I guess I'd add more Japanese/Native American details to the "city guardsman" design just to show I understood the concept. But I have to say that the entire assignment seems a bit arbitrary.

[Candra H]

Very bright colours on the two samples, which don't work for me somehow. So I like your muted guard and also the hint of purple you've brought in to the background that brings to mind the old man's coat.

Not much to comment on other than maybe instead of putting it in the background, giving your guard a purple surcoat (if thats what they're called?) if you really have to incorporate those bright colours in his costume.

Anyway, just some thoughts. I hope they help a little, and good luck with the challenge.

[vineris]

Should he have brighter colors maybe?

Maybe. If he's in a city chances are that he doesn't need camouflage. And if there's an invasion or bar brawl how do the guards recognize one another and keep from stabbing friendlies in the chaos? Think police uniforms.

[Artfix]

Hey lightship, here is some links for ya thick head

I like the idea of scimitar and I think a lower belt might b good too. I will try to post a bigger image soon.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Feature.a...ure/dndarttest

http://theartorder.com/2012/03/28/dr...d-an-art-test/

And this is what Jon Schindehette said in response to a question about the two figures looking like two different cultures, since everyone here seemed to have the same question lol.

Hey Jon, quick question regarding the art test. In the cultural entry, it states: ” Look at the example shown and either make a town guard or soldier that fits within this culture or show a guard’s or soldier’s equipment”. To me, the examples shown represent 2 distinctive cultures (or maybe I am completely wrong?). So, I was wondering if we were suppose to pick one of the two cultures shown and then develop as we see appropriate, or am I missing something here… maybe we are suppose to combine the two in order to develop a town guard or a soldier? Please clarify, thanks!

Reply ↓

Jon Schindehette
on April 2, 2012 at 4:21 pm said:
There is only a single culture shown. If I were to show a male homeless person, and a NYC 5th ave high class resident – they would be different, but would still have visual cues that they come from the same culture. Same type of thing here…two people from within a culture. There are visual clues that tell you they are from the same culture. Distill those cues and find a way to express them in other samples of the culture – in this case either a town guard or solder.

[Lightship69]

Hi bud

have a look at the works of Angus McBride he was the guy that illustrated loads of books with these kinds of images, I would specifically say look at the "armies of Islam" colour plates and the "Saracens" I think that those are the ones that seem to match the outfits on the samples (so much for Nepal eh!) you should focus your attention and research on those guys and yes I agree with vineris some kind of sash or band on a hat or helm.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ang...w=1920&bih=891
the link is to a google search on angus mcbride

ok matey if I think of anything else I will drop you a line, all the very best with it!

(Edit)
Thanks darling! I cant help being mad and old now can I!!?

[Artfix]

Wow! I LOVE this artist! I've never heard of him. What did he do all this work for? Where was it published? Maybe I'll just read about him on wikipedia

Ty very much. This guy is definitely going to be helpful inspiration.

[Lightship69]

He did a load of colour plates for a series of books that were on sale when I was playing D&D at 15yrs old (feckin long time ago!!) it was the Osprey Men at Arms series, they did Vikings and romans, Celts, the crusades right up the WW2.

I have alwasy loved the images and even at 15 could see there was quality about him.

always glad to help you out my mate anytime! have fun.

P.s. here is the link to ospreys website you can llok through a lot of the books in there, not all of the book just a few selected pages, but hey its good stuff, enjoy!
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/

[Giacomo]

Jon Schindehette on April 2, 2012 at 4:21 pm said:
There is only a single culture shown. If I were to show a male homeless person, and a NYC 5th ave high class resident – they would be different, but would still have visual cues that they come from the same culture. Same type of thing here…two people from within a culture. There are visual clues that tell you they are from the same culture. Distill those cues and find a way to express them in other samples of the culture – in this case either a town guard or solder.

Um, I'm sorry, but the above-quoted paragraph is a load of condescending bullsh*t. It's not--or at least it shouldn't be-- a concept artist's job to read the designer's mind. Providing a clear and complete brief for the assignment is what's known as "professionalism."

(Not to mention: the example he gives really doesn't make much sense. I think few people would dispute that rich and poor people in New York City occupy separate cultures that are vastly different.)

[rseward]

Nice start! I think you nailed the same culture and geography. However, it looks to me like the sample art's guard is more aristocratic and ritzy than your guard. Same culture, different social strata I guess. Yours is much more utilitarian and rural looking to me.

[Chris-Garrett]

Hello Mr Artfix, please excuse my rambling.

I kinda agree about the samples being a little too different. However, the types of curve on the fabrics are quite similar, and both characters have ornate borders on certain items of clothing. These are cues I think you could transfer across to your guard. You have already picked up on the use of fur, and I think the guards face fits the culture well.

I think that your head wear works really well, and I like the spear. I'm not so sure about the cut of his tunic and the fabric belt under his sword belt looks too thick to me.

I like the dangly bits on his chest. Maybe they are indicators of rank?

Hope this helped

Chris.

[JeffX99]

Yep - great start. I agree about the somewhat bs justification btw...but that's beside the point.

Only thing I notice is there is a bit more embroidery/border decoratoin in the others - particularly the "shaman" figure obviously. Maybe embroiderd cuffs for your guard and some kind of wrought leather-work for the boot tops kinds of things. Also one brighter not of color would help like what Vineris mentioned.

Also just as a different crit - take a look at the hands for your guy? Seem a tad small to me.

McBride did tons of great historic costume/armor illos for Osprey Books. He also did a bunch of work for an early LOTR ropleplaying system - if I remember it was for Iron Crown.

[Artfix]

Giacomo I'm sure Jon did not mean to sound condescending. His analogy was bad tho I agree. But I still understand what he meant; he means find the things that ARE in common between the two samples, and there are some things.

Now, what an artist's job is at WotC I really don't know. Maybe its important that an artist is able to emulate mythos, lore, and culture of D&D without it being spelled out for him. Maybe its important that he is able to not only emulate it, but work off it and expand on it. You can't be told how to do that by a designer. Jon wants to see that I know what the visual cues are--I think as simple as that--as simple as fur, colorful, layered, and dangly bits. Hopefully its not more complex than that lol.

rseward The sample is not of a guard. I think he is an aristrocrat as you said. The other looks to be some kind of shaman or something...who also has a tailor, dry-cleaning, and irons her clothes.

Chris I agree with your conclusion. I will be taking those cues that are common between them and trying to put on my guard. The dangly yellow things are sposed to be his rank

Jeff I think youre right about the hands. I already put a bright red scarf on him and I think it helps.

Everyone I have an idea to make a soldier in addition to the city guard. This will give me a chance to show more ornate costume, and more embroidery, etc. The clothes will be more layered, and less functional looking. I think this would be nice to show for the test because I'm showing two ranks of the same culture, and how they would be different...but also how they will be alike. And that way I can keep the city guard functional-looking because I like him this way.

[Giacomo]

Now, what an artist's job is at WotC I really don't know. Maybe its important that an artist is able to emulate mythos, lore, and culture of D&D without it being spelled out for him. Maybe its important that he is able to not only emulate it, but work off it and expand on it. You can't be told how to do that by a designer. Jon wants to see that I know what the visual cues are--I think as simple as that--as simple as fur, colorful, layered, and dangly bits. Hopefully its not more complex than that lol.

The long-established industry-standard design process is to invent the world first and create visual concepts that naturally follow it. Do these characters wear fur because it's cold? Because furry animals are common in their world? For religious reasons? Why is the figure on the right wearing brighter colors? Why is his/her face covered? Etc., etc. The thing is, you don't know, and unless you do you'll just be guessing.

I realize that everyone wants to work for WoTC, which is probably why they can make artists jump through hoops like this. But in my opinion it's still bullsh*t.

[DPFX]

I like the composition and lighting (the figure has a really nice silhouette). I think you've reasonably established that he's part of the same culture as the sample characters, though some splashes of more saturated color may be more aligned with their expectations.

-- I suspect that you've taken several photos of yourself in this pose, so I'm reluctant to suggest that there are anatomy problems, but I blunder forward nevertheless...

Is it just me or are the hands a tad small? (EDIT: duh...read the whole thread, Dave...Jeff already snagged this one) Also, it appears to me that the left hand is resting on the weapon in an unconvincing/unnatural way.

The right shoulder looks pushed out a bit far.

I feel like there is something just slightly off about the pose of the legs...like maybe the right leg is just a hair short or should be under his weight just a hair more. I look forward to your posting of the reference photo that proves, once again, that I'm a moron.

-- I know you have a very painterly style (one that I envy), but the archway feels too sketchy to me. Also, the wall seems to have a perspective issue, with the two bottom edges of the arch being on slightly different planes.

-- I can't tell if his coat is chainmail or fur. Also, some bits (like the boots) might benefit from just a bit more finish.

-- Finally, I think that if you are going to do an additional character, it might be more interesting to choose something more starkly different than a soldier. An executioner or thief, for example. It doesn't help that their sample characters don't have clear professions (what IS that dude on the right...merchant? dignitary? is the woman a priestess? sorceress?)

Good luck, man...I'm rootin' for you!

[Shorinji_Knight]

Looking good. I just want to point out that until about the late 1600's camouflage wasn't much of an issue. It wasn't until the invention of reliable firearms. Armys often wore bright color because they would just line up facing each other. The colors help identify who you were and were'nt supposed to kill. Tactics didn't really become guerrilla until the around the civil war and they were mostly learned from fighting with americian indians. So don't be afraid to put some colors on him.

This guy is a city guard... even our present day cops wear blue.

[Artfix]

All good feedback thanks guys.

shorinji Good points. How come whenever I see films...no one is ever brightly colored? I watch a lot of movies and I wonder...how can they tell who to fight? The simple answer is that films aren't perfect, I guess.

Giacomo I think we would all agree with you, man. Artists are taken advantage of needless to say--even by other artists and directors. Someone wrote an email to Jon about it--he said he thought it was wrong to propose this "test" because its basically spec work and it perpetuates working for free, jumping through hoops, fighting for scraps, however you want to word it. Jon posted the email and said he could see his point, but still thought this was good practice for people and a way to be seen. I have to admit that without hoops like these, I have NO chance of ever working there. Love it or hate it, its still probly the only way I can get their attention!

dpfx The brief calls for a "city guard or soldier" only.

Ya'll are just gonna have to wait for an update. I'm taking a vacation for about 5 days lol. I promise to get back on it!

[Artfix]

Okie dokie here is an update finally! I gave him a red scarf, bigger hands, and new chainmail. I made sure the doorway lined up. Umm what else...oh I lowered the scabbard on his waist. I decided not to give him a curved sword. Altho the sample does have the pointy helmet, they also have fur which tells me there's no reason to make them more arabian than they already are.

Refer to the samples in the first post. If they're too small for you to see, go here
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Feature.a...ure/dndarttest

Any other ideas? I'm ready to start on the soldier.

edit: it would help if I include the image!

[dwilliams]

I would add patterns to part of his clothes, maybe his belt or his fur lined skirt. It would tie in to the nobleman's clothes, as well as the other male designs. Most of them had some kind of pattern on their clothes or at least the trim of their clothing. Doesn't have to be too fancy though.

[Artfix]

I noticed a lot of patterns in looking through Mcbrides paintings too. I want to keep the city guard looking like he has basic equipment, and the soldier as an upgraded soldier. That's the idea anyway but I'm not sure I'm pulling that off at all.

Here is the soldier thus far. I had a purple cape on him at the beginning and he immediately looked like a king. I also think the pattern fur helmet makes him look like some kind of royalty. So I dont know how to make him look fancy like the sample characters, but also a soldier. Its a challenge!

[TinyBird]

The shield is giving me some pretty Celtic/Gaul vibes with the colouring and markings for some reason. If you're going with a Mongolian shield, I'd make it more curved http://silverhorde.viahistoria.com/r...golShield.html and personally I'd try bit less brighter and simple colours and marking. Both characters in the original have cool blue/green hues and simple and small decorations in their clothes so maybe something like that could work?

[Artfix]

Thanks tinybird. I dunno what I'm doing. This one is being a real pain. I'm trying to make him layered and fancy looking like the samples but its just so impractical. I guess I have to imagine this is his outfit before a battle, and he takes off all his superfluous capes beforehand lol.

So here is the latest.

[DPFX]

Man, I really love the helmet design on this latest one. The "overcoat" and its decorative elements are really nice, too.

I like the inclusion of the scale mail, but it pops a bit much for my taste.

There seems to be some disagreement in the lighting, especially between the helmet and right shoulder.

I'm not sure the oval background is doing you any favors, and on the left side of the image you approach having what I've heard others on these forums call a tangent, with the sword tip almost touching the wall.

Speaking of the sword, it seems a bit short, and its angle doesn't agree (to my eye) with the angle of his wrist.

I like the sky behind him.

In my opinion, this design is a winner worth developing. I look forward to seeing where you go from here.

[Artfix]

DPFX Thank for for the useful crit! I agree on ALL points! Did you look at the samples I'm trying to match when you say the design is a winner? I really want Jon(of WotC) to see that I can follow the brief!

I tried to make the helm match the design of that mask in the sample.

[Artfix]

marylin Yeah, you're not the only one. I've been trying not to compare them to known earthly cultures. But instead, look at their commonalities and surmise that's part of their culture which is fictional. The problem with that, is that I dont know anything else...like do they use straight swords or curved swords? Which is what Giacomo was saying...that the director should tell us in the brief and we shouldn't be having to guess.

So I'm trying not to worry about european or eastern...I'm just trying to get their commonalities into my image...which is fur, lots of layers of clothes, and dangly bits and trinkets.

Here's my other question tho--is it their culture or the artist style that makes it look like they have professional tailors and someone to press their clothes. Then someone else to help them put all their clothes on for an hour. Maybe their culture is obsessed with wardrobe....or maybe its the artist's style. I dont know!

[Lightship69]

Hi matey

I think you are right about not going for a particular area or region as its a fantasy environment or competition and to tie them down to a single idea would stifle you a bit and limit your options.
In the two examples I read one as a shaman or priest with the holy symbol on a stick thingy and the other is maybe a wealthy merchant, or even just a Lord of the manor rich dude.
They are both wearing a lot of fur on the outfits they have on, but that could be a red herring and could be a sign of wealth as well. There seems to be an awful lot of embroidery and silk in evidence too. The sketches bit from the website also puts loads of decoration on the guys and also lots of fur and bordering. Two of the men are tooled up with double bearded battle axes too which is a tad extreme but does give us another cultural reference. Both male and female sketches have braided or plaited hair too with some of the women using feathers for decoration and one of the blokes using whacking big pubctured metal squares to help keep his hair in order, there is also the accepted use of facial hair in the men with a good beard or two in evidence. They all seem to be going for the soft boot option as well and also like you said lots of layers.

Ok time to take a flyer with what I have learned from these images just to get your considerable mental juices flowing my mate.
They come from an area of a world that is potentially very hot and also potentially very cold as we have fur on a lot of folks and lots of layers, but not thick layers of furs and leather, we have silks and embroidery.
The gold bits, embroidery and silks tells me that they have money to waste on finery and this would spill down onto the soldiery.
It they have money to waste on finery we can also assume that they trade with other cultures and such like, this also implies education, as money is a wonderful thing and greases many wheels in a culture.
The large axes tells us that every now and again something comes along that needs a bloody good hiding before it goes away again, so money would be spent on the soldiers of the culture too.
Even the city guards would have decent equipment as there are wealthy folks around and goods to be pilfered and stolen.

So this long ramble comes to this, in my opinion:
The place is hot during the day but can get very cold at nights (layers of clothing), it is a wealthy trading nation with good security.

Cultures that you can steal ideas, weapons and armour from :- Vikings, Crusades, charlemagne, Saracens, chinese and plus any hot area cultures that use a layered approach to clothing.

City Guards: - Would be armed with small round shield and mace/ or club for subduing criminal elements and daggers or short swords for when things get serious. The equipment has to be small as they need to move quickly around the city streets to get to crime scenes or fights fast.
The costume would me some sort of mass produced armour that is easy to fit on anyone (studded leather, or laminated leather) with a symbol of the city on the shield and a coloured sash or decoration around the body and helm, They would also have some kind of cape to keep warm with at night whilst standing around. This would give us a policeman that can see what he needs to see and yet get around fast when required whilst still being able to defend himself and subdue miscreants.

Soldiers :- would pick large elements out of the city guards but would aslo be better protected with a helm similar to the guards but more fullfaced with cheek pieces and neck protection, though still utilising mass produced armour theme, The best idea could be the use of laminated leather with large rings or plates sewn on, they might have longish spears, javelins, throwing axes, good swords and much bigger shields. Only if you decide that the culture is seriously wealthy do you go for loads of shiny breastplates, chain mail and splint or plate mail the time taken to produce that kind of stuff made it massively expensive.
The colours element of the uniform would be much more apparent as well, on ancient battlefields you needed to be able to see your men clearly and distinguish them from the enemy. This is due to the lack of effective communications in ancient times and to prevent you dropping arrows and large rocks on your own guys.

Ok matey thats as far as my thinking goes with this I hope it was of some use to you as It took ages to type it up (ha ha ha)

[Artfix]

Dang Lightship, what a good analysis! You must have done this before. I will seriously think about all that you said. I forgot to look at those drawings!

[Lightship69]

HI bud

I work to a simple rule and that is try your best for your mates! and you qualify so just live it down as best you can mate.

As for the analysis thats the best I could come up with to help you out, and what i thought would give you the best chance to come up with something logical, diferent and still good.

all the very best with it mate.

[Artfix]

Ok here is the latest. I will add some decorative pattern to some parts. Not too shabby tho!