Dragons composition, early WIP

[Eclectix]

I did some freestyle scribbling last night and this is based on that. Before I move on and start fleshing things out I'd love to get some input. I will be adding wispy clouds and probably some distant mountain peaks in the far background.

[Star Eater]

I'm getting a kind of ying and yang vibe from the picture. Not only because of the black and white,
but the dragons look too much like exact duplicates to me in form and body position.

[Candra H]

Really nice, I like this a lot. I think I spotted one of your previous dragon compositions but never got round to commenting on it. I loved that one too.

This one works well as it is for me, without too much detail in the background. I also think putting in land in the shape of mountains would maybe ground the dragons too much and it might lose some of that magical aerial (sp?) feel you've got at the moment.

One suggestion about the position of the dragons. Maybe tilting the black dragon more so you see its underside from above, the way birds of prey look when they passing prey or doing their mating dance, would really push the composition into something special. Though, thats just my personal opinion and you might think differently.

Great start though, and I'll be eagerly watching this take shape. Good luck with it!

[w176]

I like th compostion but... Hmm. Somehow, from a physical stance point the black dragon pose don't make much sense. Or rather i think the king that is wrong is the position of the wing closes to us.

The questing that comes to me is:

"Why is he flopping his wing in that angle? It look awkward and/or painful- Where is he trying to move? Is he sort of turning? Maybe he trying to go into some butt-first dive? No doesn't seem right... Or is it broken? Or? I don't even...."

[Eclectix]

Thanks for the feedback so far! If I do put mountains in the background, they will be very distant and shrouded in mist, so hopefully they won't ground the dragons too much. If they do, I'll certainly take them out.

The black dragon looks contorted because it is doing a sort of mid-air somersault or cartwheel. I've watched ravens, hawks and eagles do this sort of thing before. I've seen ravens do this when being attacked by other birds; they roll over onto their backs and reach their claws out as they stall out. Eagles and hawks do it for courtship, eventually locking their talons and cartwheeling in a spinning dive. I made it intentionally ambiguous in this image whether they are fighting or courting, as I want the viewer to be drawn in to their own conclusions. Here are a couple of examples I found of this sort of pose;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_x29Pef-T4F...s+101_2373.jpg
http://www.besgroup.org/2007/03/12/a...ied-sea-eagle/

[w176]

Yet, even if he doing a rollback, shouldn't the wing closet to us either be higher, or at an different angle? I see the body of the dragon as upright, and that means that the wing still sort of is at a awkward angle? During the rollback the angles seem to be at a more symmetrical angle?

[Eclectix]

Oh, I see what you mean. I pictured him more on his back, but I haven't given much definition to the dragons' bodies yet so I can see how it would look like it is upright. I'll definitely need to clarify that when I render it out more fully! In fact, I will probably be rendering them with 4 legs each instead of just the 2 place holders I gave them.

[Eclectix]

I am not yet happy with the pose on the black dragon. His arms look like they are flailing too wildly; I want to bring them tighter to the body. I also need to fix the neck. Anyway, this is what I have so far today:

[Candra H]

Looking good!

I'll wait to see what you do with your fixes before commenting further, because you changed the white dragon's pose which I was going to mention, so you're already ahead of me.

[Eclectix]

Thanks, Candra! I think I've got the pose more or less fixed now. I can't seem to find time to work on this image except for a few short opportunities. Hopefully I'll find more time this weekend to really sink my teeth into it. Here is the progress so far!

[Lhune]

I quite like it, though the poses don't feel quite right and the overall image is rather monotonic and cold. I'd try and find a way to get some warmer tones in there.

What's contributing to the odd feel of the poses is that the wing arms are very, very short compared to the wing fingers, resulting in the wings looking rather stiff. That, and they don't seem to be positioned quite right compared to the bodies and the way they're flying. You could get away with the latter though I guess, it's more a nitpick from me personally.

[Eclectix]

For some reason I always default to making the wing arms much shorter than the fingers. I need to consciously work on that.

[Candra H]

I'm not sure I like the latest version. The black dragon's pose looks forced and stiff now, and I think you might have been on a better track before. Maybe just tucking the limbs in against the body and using foreshortening to hide some of the awkward curves in the neck, would help with the issues you mentioned about that.

[Eclectix]

I had a couple of hours this afternoon so I did some more work on the poses. I'm still not entirely happy with the white dragon's pose.

[Lhune]

I hope you don't mind me doing this!



I find it hard to explain myself with words so I hope the paintover is clear enough; I think there are still some problems with the structures of your wings, and the lines of action of the dragons (or the direction lines, I'm not sure what to call them) are rather angular and "broken", resulting in them looking stiff. I think if you tried to make them rounder and more "flowing", their poses will look more natural.

Here's a comparison of the lines as I see them;



I hope that makes sense .

[Candra H]

A great critique from Lhune, and i just wanted to add that I kind of like way she tucked the wing arms into the membranes. It looks really good, though I understand logically that it might restrict how the dragons fly. Entirely up to you if you decide to incorporate it in your design but I thought I'd add some support for it.

You're doing great work with this, Eclectix. Keep going with it and good luck!

[Eclectix]

Thank you very much for your very nice paint over, Lhune. I always respect your dragon anatomy advice.

I'm attaching my idea of what I perceive as far as composition lines. The green lines are secondary lines, mostly the mountains, which just arrest the eye from straying, to keep the eye flowing back into the point of interest. To my eye, the final resting position is ultimately the black dragon's head. Most of the other lines either flow to the white dragon's gaze- leading back to the black dragon again- or flow around the wings and back to the same.



Maybe I need to step away from this and work on something else for a few days. Sometimes that helps to get some fresh eyes.