Identifying ways of making global capitalism more stable

[Oden]

Furthermore, I think you missed the point of Kev's question about an ideal world. It was a rhetorical device, meant to highlight the naivete of ideals. The irony (or is it fitting?) is that you do not yet understand this, and therefore fall directly in to Kev's categorization of the misguided.

Okay, and let me guess, the 'naivete of ideals' only applies to those ideals which fall outside the current capitalist paradigm? The glorious technological rainbowland of unhindered free-market capitalism gets a free pass?

And I know a fair amount of perfectly happy farmers, but I guess that's because I live in an area of North America where people have ideals that they actually follow through on, and are willing to accept standards of living that fall outside of what some can comprehend as a pleasant lifestyle.

[Goog]

Okay, and let me guess, the 'naivete of ideals' only applies to those ideals which fall outside the current capitalist paradigm?

You guessed incorrectly. Both you and Ossiferous are making incorrect assumptions about the viewpoints of others in this thread. I would say more, but the level of emotional attachment by a certain individual has completely ended any hope of a productive discourse.

[Arshes Nei]

Imagine you and a group of people you've known for years is having a discussion and then some douchenozzle jumps in and starts telling people they're libertarians according to the vast body of experience this guy has from arguing on the internet.

Makes me wonder if we should apply that kind of logic so that anyone who thanks a spambot is a moron.

[Ossiferous Rex!]

I think we can all set aside our differences and concede that the obvious spambot had an impeccable sense of timing. I genuinely appreciated his contribution to the thread.

[MXJSPH]

It seems to me the task of properly identifying the historical problem of capital and its evolution into the tyranny it is today still troubles us. I'll bullet point my answer because I will turn it into an essay with prose:

1. All labour has value. Principle rule of work.

2. A new conception of measuring prosperity must emerge, as capitalism has failed so utterly and completely that reinventing capitalism, reforming it, or any other such word would be like one saying lets give state-centric communism another try. Both are failures, philosophically and in their practical implementation. The last 100 years are a testament to that.

3. Money, as a regular measurement device, should measure prosperity through production. Money does not do that anymore, and the biggest boom in our post-industrial, service driven economies is the industry where people make money simply with money.

4. The gap between actual identifiable wealth and arbitrarily created debt is increasing. All new money created is rooted in debt because the measurement system as we knew it has broken down in its entirety. Prosperity and production are no longer the independent variables, but have now reversed their relationship in becoming dependent upon money (fallacies such as "where is the money going to come from to do that?" as if we suddenly have less resources and labour with which to do it - we actually have more - we're just tricked into not realising it).

5. Remembering that all labour has value, the conclusion that can be deduced is thus: the process in which someone can sell something they don't care about, to someone they don't care about, for a price they don't know about is not sustainable. Prosperity through labour has become divorced from its measurement device, money, and is completely corrupted by those who espouse a tyrannical and authoritarian boss-centric ideology and who utilise apathy as their primary tool in accelerating the cyphoning of wealth and assets upwards.

6. Capitalism and its natural progression into a dictatorial system of economy and government is being seen around the world today: China, the emerging global superpower, is exploiting its position as world creditor by adopting an authoritarian capitalist model which is influencing western economic consumer policy behaviour.

7. Technocracies in the west are emerging after the supplanting of Western leaders (see Greece and Italy) to push through neoliberal austerity measures which drastically accelerate the gap between the rich capitalists/financiers and the working classes. Technocratic rule is perfect to execute such unpopular policy because they are insulated from democratic scrutiny - they are not elected, and therefore, unaccountable except to those odious interest groups who appoint them. Any resistance will be grossly portrayed as "insurgent", "anarchic" and "against the rule of law". If democratic avenues have been exhausted through the death of representational democracy, violence as we have seen in Europe ensues and civil liberties are trampled on.


I can go on and on but I'll leave it at that. I guess it turned into an essay anyway.

[Raoul Duke]

Ossiferous rex- According to this thread scrutinizing you will stabilize capitalism. Only two more posts to go until you can post your art.

[Ossiferous Rex!]

I think the limit is 20, actually. I can hack it.

[Kamber Parrk]

So, has anybody, here, actually read the OP's, Naomi's, materials and actually deigned sufficient to, actually, comment upon them?

I mean, she worships Satan and smokes pot on a daily basis, BUT, even she seems to want to preserve CAPITALISM!

Reasoning?

I'm just lazy and wonder if Naomi's sources have any relevance!

[MXJSPH]

I posted a fairly long reply but it seems to have either been taken down or I don't know... Weird??

[Ossiferous Rex!]

So, has anybody, here, actually read the OP's, Naomi's, materials and actually deigned sufficient to, actually, comment upon them?

I sort of incorporated a response to the OP in my initial post, and a dude construed it as being off-topic: "I wouldn't put much stock in a system that outright demands infinite growth on a finite planet to maintain prosperity." Kev was right about one thing, you can't stabilize a dynamic system, and capitalism requires a constant stream of production and consumption to survive. As soon as we stop manufacturing plastic truck testicles and electronics designed to fail within X amount of time, it's all going to unravel at the seams. Collapse is inevitable, we're only hurting ourselves by putting it off.

[Kamber Parrk]

I sort of incorporated a response to the OP in my initial post, and a dude construed it as being off-topic: "I wouldn't put much stock in a system that outright demands infinite growth on a finite planet to maintain prosperity." Kev was right about one thing, you can't stabilize a dynamic system, and capitalism requires a constant stream of production and consumption to survive. As soon as we stop manufacturing plastic truck testicles and electronics designed to fail within X amount of time, it's all going to unravel at the seams. Collapse is inevitable, we're only hurting ourselves by putting it off.

It's what I call a "Rorschach Thread": people see what they, themselves, see and comment!

Call me naive, but I still believe in "American Exceptionialism." Here, in the "53%" I, actually, am striving to be part of "the 1%."

I fantasize about the day I look down, from my penthouse, peering over the edge of a snifter of brandy at the riot cops firing baton rounds at smelly hipsters camped out in the town square. . .

[Ossiferous Rex!]

And hey, that's cool with me! We're all egoists at heart, I won't burden you with any notions of moral obligation.

Now, acknowledge and accept that you will never have a six figure income unless you're an economist or an entrepreneur with an absolutely brilliant idea, and the gap for both possibilities is fast closing. Even entertaining the thought that you'll hit this lottery is only lowering the standard of living for yourself and everyone around you. I'm surprised you're at all interested in a thread about fixing capitalism when what you're fantasizing of here hinges squarely on the system remaining broken!

[Kamber Parrk]

And hey, that's cool with me! We're all egoists at heart, I won't burden you with any notions of moral obligation.

Now, acknowledge and accept that you will never have a six figure income unless you're an economist or an entrepreneur with an absolutely brilliant idea, and the gap for both possibilities is fast closing. Even entertaining the thought that you'll hit this lottery is only lowering the standard of living for yourself and everyone around you. I'm surprised you're at all interested in a thread about fixing capitalism when what you're fantasizing of here hinges squarely on the system remaining broken!

DUDE!

I'm seeing 100k on the horizon!

[Ossiferous Rex!]

Well, isn't that swell. What are you doing?

[Kamber Parrk]

Well, isn't that swell. What are you doing?

I'm a telecom contractor with a grad degree.

[arttorney]

I like you, Kamber.

And hey, that's cool with me! We're all egoists at heart, I won't burden you with any notions of moral obligation.

Now, acknowledge and accept that you will never have a six figure income unless you're an economist or an entrepreneur with an absolutely brilliant idea, and the gap for both possibilities is fast closing. Even entertaining the thought that you'll hit this lottery is only lowering the standard of living for yourself and everyone around you. I'm surprised you're at all interested in a thread about fixing capitalism when what you're fantasizing of here hinges squarely on the system remaining broken!

The TV watchin' golf playin' BMW "because it's bling" drivin' friends of mine are struggling lately while I invested in my business and I am heading directly toward being one of the so-called "1%" because of bloody hard work. I'm not an economist. I'm an entreprenuer (and proud of it!). My idea is not brilliant. Damn near anyone could have thought of it. Few have the drive or the nads to see it through is the thing. Meanwhile a bunch of whiny nitwits are camped out in tents claiming the world will be a better place once we remove incentive for individual achievement.

Don't talk to me about moral obligation. In the midst of my rise to six figures I devote nearly half of my work hours for free to pro bono efforts in California Lawyers for the Arts or else something else I do to make sure the courts can stay open but which I can't openly discuss.

some douchenozzle jumps in and starts telling people they're libertarians according to the vast body of experience this guy has from arguing on the internet.

By the way, what's wrong with being Libertarian? If you all had been voting Libertarian the last twenty years none of this would have happened. Crony capitalism is the problem, anarcho-capitalism would have sought an appropriate equilibrium long ago. Naomi's link concerns the evils of crony capitalism, not capitalism overall. When the government starts picking the winners and the losers, we are all losers. The government does not produce. It only takes.

Get into seasteading.

[Ossiferous Rex!]

The TV watchin' golf playin' BMW "because it's bling" drivin' friends of mine are struggling lately while I invested in my business and I am heading directly toward being one of the so-called "1%" because of bloody hard work. I'm not an economist. I'm an entreprenuer (and proud of it!). My idea is not brilliant. Damn near anyone could have thought of it. Few have the drive or the nads to see it through is the thing. Meanwhile a bunch of whiny nitwits are camped out in tents claiming the world will be a better place once we remove incentive for individual achievement.

So, you're making $10,000 an hour? Because that's something of a prerequisite for you to come anywhere near close to the top 1%, or even the 20%, really. Not that it'd make much difference to me if you were, because as much as it might irk me that people are raking in that much dough for a radically inequitable amount of work, it's more of a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself; that'd be the net sum of all the forces working to distend the socioeconomic gap. I don't think hoarding fiat money is going to put a strain on the system. EDIT: And since I can't think of a better place to put this, my primary concerns in all of this deal with hierarchy and coercion, so all this money talk doesn't appeal to me much anyway.

And just so we're clear, while I love the protests for drumming up anti-establishment fervor, I do recognize that they're entirely anemic in their capacity for change and that the majority of the participants really don't understand how any of this shit works. They don't want to end capitalism, they want more capital for themselves, and they think they can get that by begging the wrong people- Wall Street is beholden to no one, that's sort of the point of a free market economy! If they had any sense, they'd be protesting the government itself, the apparatus directly responsible for the well-being of the populace. Not like that would get them anywhere either when our government is at once too sickly to meet their demands and too decadent to attempt it. Call me when you're ready for some real direct action, guys.

Oh, not that our reigning oligarchy is serving as inspiration to anyone right now! There's no incentive for individual achievement in any of this when Bilderberg status is completely and unquestionably unattainable for anyone reading this message, and there's nothing suggesting that this isn't precisely what the "1%" wants.

Don't talk to me about moral obligation.

"I won't burden you with any notions of moral obligation."

By the way, what's wrong with being Libertarian?

"I won't burden you with any notions of moral obligation."

I'm curious though, as I haven't done much studying regarding the Elysian Fields of Rand: What exactly is the distinction between capitalism and crony capitalism, in the long run? How would you keep autonomous individuals from forming the sort of networks demonstrated in the OP that landed us in so much shit to begin with without government regulation even more rigorous than what we have now? Now this discussion is really getting back on track!

I kind of want to sit this out for a while, see how many other closet millionaires we've got here. There's not much I can say to convince a crowd like this.


EDIT: I completely missed MXJSPH's post. Way to steal the show, dude. I should've just said all that stuff instead of purely reacting to the posts of others and ultimately getting nowhere!

[samthemule]

Speaking of naiivity, Milton friedman had this to say on politics and "useful idiots" falling for communism etc etc.

"One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results."

and... if you're still drinking coke, you're a sucker! research aspartame, msg, the poison in foods, fluoride (results of shavings from aluminium)
& tavistock institute.

the great dumbing down is real: look at an eighth grade test from 100 years ago. It would be difficult to pass today, for university students.

edit: What is the real alternative to capitalism???

[MXJSPH]

Look,

You can sit here and bash those who are criticising your aspiration/dream to be a big earner, a boss, the chair of a company, through all of your own graft and toil because you didn't need any help or that you're just naturally a "go-getter", or your parents taught you well, or any other of the plethora of bullshit reasons that you think are relevant when judging how a society creates equal opportunities - that's the heart of the issue.

No-one is disputing how potent individual agency is. I'm a firm believer in tiny government, but the markets are intrinsically not free. Let me break it down for you:

It is the aspiration of every business to be the market leader in their industry.

In the event of colluding to artificially set prices with competitors for mutual benefit and reliable if dented profit (see Health Care in the U.S.) the best way to be market leader is to eliminate competition and create a monopoly.

By creating a monopoly, you manipulate the market, demand itself becomes a resource because your supply is immune to external forces. Your only task is now to foster demand for your product.

In this environment, every business finds its summit, its peak, and its goal.

It is the natural progression, or at least projected evolution, of every aspiring and successful businessman. That is why capitalism fails: the markets have no immunity to this corruption. Competition cannot be preserved in any way internally. Whenever a business becomes powerful enough to buy politicians and legislators because it is in their mutual interests (they are in fact acting rationally in accordance to their respective interests), then you as a consumer, as the electorate, become irrelevant and periphery.

Wages are falling in real terms year on year (considering inflation and cost of living) for most people. Unemployment needs to be kept at a reasonably high level to keep wages down (evidence suggests the best thing to do with a disgruntled worker is treat them even worse/give them less to make them grateful for what little you do give them). If everyone was employed, you would have deflation and a competition for higher wages as companies try and outbid each other for labour. Massive corporations can only survive in the former world.

If you want to play this game, by all means. Have your nice little paycheque, go to work and do good for the company as you seek seniority, all the while dreaming of whatever dynasty you have in mind to create and leave behind. If you're obsessed with "freedom" and you consider yourself a "libertarian", then once you accrue all of the money you have made during your life, give it all away on your death bed and leave your kids $0/£0. That's the only way libertarianism works - everyone starts from the same point and with the same circumstances, with zero, and your obsession with meritocracy can be fully explored and executed.

But you won't do that, will you? You'll leave everything, or at least nearly everything, your whole legacy to your kids, to give them the best headstart you can, because you're a hypocrite and only espouse these values when they suit you or you're trying to argue ideologically (i.e, divorced from reality). The irony is libertarians on the right-wing, considering the spectrum of politics, are just anarchists with money.


"There's a reason why they call it the American Dream - you have to be asleep to believe it" ~ GC

[s.ketch]

Sam, don't start again. The first two lines are relevant to the discussion, but as usual, everything afterwards is crazy ranting.

[tehmeh]

s.ketch I think you misread the first three words he clearly started his entire ironic post with!

[JFierce]

lol there's never been a perfect form of government in history. Both Capitalism and Socialism throughout time has been warped and twisted from it's original honorable intent.

I would discuss more on both but it's an insanely complex issue and if someone could magically come up with a system that would solve everyones main problems they would be hailed a hero and should work to get that change happen.

[Black Spot]

3. Money, as a regular measurement device, should measure prosperity through production. Money does not do that anymore, and the biggest boom in our post-industrial, service driven economies is the industry where people make money simply with money.

This. I've been banging on recently elsewhere about actually making things that people need not necessarily want. Technological advances are all very well and good, but seriously, last year's model isn't that bad, it's just envy and greed that drives people into debt to get the next new shiny toy. Food, shelter, water & warmth are the basics - everything else is candy floss. Even warmth is really a luxury; we now expect to get up to a warm house and not freeze while dressing. I remember taking my school clothes to bed to put on under the covers before getting up as there was ice on the inside of the windows. We've become spoilt, including me, but the brainwashing to the 99% continues and we all fall for it. We don't have to buy the stuff. If everyone kept to the basics, the 1% would be the losers. You won't and I won't, and we'll continue to buy into this unrealistic ideal of what life actually needs. We'll continue to use our credit cards, overdrafts & increase our mortgages to pay for our delusions. When was the last time any of you actually saved up to buy what you wanted instead of paying the 1%? When did living within your means become abnormal?

[s.ketch]

Not responding to anyone in particular.

A vital part to any free society is an economy where individuals choose how their capital is spent for their needs. Capital must also be generated through self-chosen means. That is you get to choose what job you want and how your income is spent.

In order to preserve the freedom aspect of the economy, people get to choose what they buy. People don't always pay for use value. Use value is the practical use of an object. A shovel has more use value than a bobble-head. Depending on your needs, a shovel may even have more use value than a Wacom. Again, here we find ourselves faced with the ability to choose. We can choose what is useful.

And I would like to point out the practicality of this system. Letting people decide for themselves what they need is the easiest way to make sure their needs are fulfilled. Trying to accomplish the same thing through legislation alone would be a nightmare. I would assume that many more people would be left in the dark under a system where individuals aren't in control of their wallets.

[Raoul Duke]

Sam, don't start again. The first two lines are relevant to the discussion, but as usual, everything afterwards is crazy ranting.

yeah he brought up Milton Freidman and I was about to rant about how his philosophy is whats unstable about capitalism. But I've done that before and it's just a waste of time.

[Arshes Nei]

We'll continue to use our credit cards, overdrafts & increase our mortgages to pay for our delusions. When was the last time any of you actually saved up to buy what you wanted instead of paying the 1%? When did living within your means become abnormal?

For me quite often actually. I was in debt due to school loans. When I got a job that paid decently everything was with debit cards (not credit) when cash wasn't going to cut it. I even put money aside for my retirement. It may not be a lot at a time but it adds up.

I do talk about gadgets a lot and I get to get "toys" but I don't buy the latest game consoles, my limit with computer purchases (ie a desktop or laptop is $500).

So basically there is some sensibility in what I buy.

[arttorney]

I haven't had a credit card since 1998. When did earning your own way through life become a frikken sin? That's what I want to know.

And about being in the 1%, all you gotta earn to get there is $350,000/yr. At 40 hours per week with two weeks vacation (50 weeks per year), that's a mere $175/hr. I bill more than that and I am worth more than I bill. The struggle is only to get the billing up to 40 hours per week with all the freebie work I do.

As far as what is to stop people from engaging in crony capitalism as opposed to true capitalism, I must point out at this time that no matter what system is imposed the cheaters will always rise into the positions from which they can best cheat. That does not make the system bad, it makes the cheaters undesirable. The dynastic cycles in China show that the cheaters can be weeded out in a mere generation of individuals who have sufficient resolve.

Originally Posted by MXJSPH View Post
3. Money, as a regular measurement device, should measure prosperity through production. Money does not do that anymore, and the biggest boom in our post-industrial, service driven economies is the industry where people make money simply with money.

You must be talking about your own money, or lack thereof. I rose from a family of two psychotic parents and seven hungry children to turn myself into a United States Patent Attorney. I starved for years grossing $27,000 per year because I don't play the political "friends" game. I did pro bono cases nobody else would do, and got screwed by my own clients because they decided screwing me was better than paying me the half price we had agreed I would work for. Now they get their food stamps as something that looks like a debit card while my experience, education, and judgment could get me $375 an hour if I had the heart to charge that much in this economy. I urge you to reconsider that word "productivity." What is being produced by some asshat marching around with a picket sign? I help people make things that can better people's lives. The anti-capitalist crowd help the media put a show on TV every night. They produce a circus while people like me produce a better standard of living.

Go ahead and end capitalism. I will be thrilled to go on early Social Security retirement and force the rest of you to pay my way through life. I only have to wait another six years for that.

[JFierce]

Your stereotyping just as much as everyone else. That the people in OWS are all anti capitalist 'asshats'. When many are just protesting corruption in the law making process where money influences the creation process and ends up not for the well being of the people but of interest to select groups.
(If thats who your referencing by picket signs, only modern reference I can think of going on recently)



Though in all reality to your situation thats good for you. (not even meaning that sarcastically, I'm sure you worked hard to get to that point) But not everyone can do that, there aren't many jobs that pay that and not everyone can succeed in their own business. You did thats great. But I can give you an example just today ironically from my brother in law since all this is mainly just talk from personal experiences. They were discussing his work which is a contracted software development company for the government. He was talking about how this guy set aside over 30-40k, had everything in the works and was just starting up his own business in the field when a big company competitor filed a bullshit patent suit over something that wasn't even close to what he was planning to produce but thanks to the cost of all that it ran him straight out of business before he got off the ground. Shit happens. A lot. The guy worked hard to save up get everything ready and started.

Not everyone can be successful even if you work at it, and it's certainly not as simple as effort equals results. You can train at running all your life but still never be good enough to get to the olympics (crappy analogy I know lol). You should work hard and you should be rewarded for it but sadly thats not always the case as your portraying it in your posts. (Not advocating not working hard so try not to twist my words into saying that)



P.S. I'm not against capitalism so don't jump the gun on that either.

[samthemule]

Sam, don't start again. The first two lines are relevant to the discussion, but as usual, everything afterwards is crazy ranting.

I'm sorry if I come across a whacko, I promise you as far as I can tell I'm not, it's the world that is nuts : )
My imagination is stable.



I would ask you, urge you, please measure the effects of eating and drinking fluoride, aspartame, msg, e-numbers, saturated fats, yourself.
don't believe the articles, experiment on yourself, see the effects.

You know the history of science in "proving" things are safe right?
Tobaco science, cocaine science... phoney science.
Hell, last year, a bunch of scientists claimed vitamins and red wine are terrible for you. Did people believe them? yes... did i? no, i trusted plato.

"wine is one of the greatest gifts the gods gave humanity"

Of course the people who subscribe a.d.d medication for you are going to say: take this it'll make you sane. But did you know that Ritalin is one chemical bond away from being "speed"? These drugs people take to re-balance their supposed chemical im-balance just unbalance them further. Once you start going down this route, you do serious damage.
Same with food, once you start messing with it, you are on a slippery and dangerous slope.
It can all be healed, but it takes energy.
Look: on the side of the bottle of Anti-depressants is written: "caution side effects may incur suicidal thoughts".

Did you know donald rumsfeld is on the board of "searle (link)" which makes aspartame? Do you really want to trust your health to this man? Really?

Why not find out for yourself? Become an expert. It doesn't take as long as you might think. You are the smartest person you will ever know, because you are the only person you will ever truly know.

Have you really investigated aspartame and fluoride to your own personal satisfaction, or are you trusting further in a system which, has been proven, to lie and steal from you. You, the real living breathing human being.

I was diagnosed with dyslexia and adhd, autism and many other things, what i realised though is that, while these diagnoses may have been accurate, the prescribed treatment is and was not good. So I and my parents refused, at the time. My best friend took ritalin and i've seen the tragic effects of that.
I wish he hadn't. I really wish.

Watch what ken robinson has to say about add and "do schools kill creativity"? sadly, at the moment, just at the moment, they do. And doctors are in league with big-pharma : ( : ( : (
much as i don't want to believe it. The food we eat is also part of the equation.

Ken robinson tells a touching story about a girl who was diagnosed with add and told to be quiet and "stop wriggling"... turns out, SHE WAS A DANCER!
and when she went to a 100% dancing school, she flourished. If her parents had listened to the doctor, who really, had no clue, she would have just spiralled deeper into depression and not have been able to truly adjust to the system.

Education should be tailor-made for the students and children. The fact it is not and refuses to see it should be, is a powerful statement about how blind and arrogant this system is. Generalizing is for idiots. Specializing and Universalizing specific principles from extrapolated, tried true and tested knowledge is the true sign of genius.

Try eating 100% wholesome natural food and notice the difference in your state of mind. I mean, you only need to meditate for about 40 minutes intensely (if you haven't ever, try binaural beats to accelerate and acclimate more easily). You only need to get fit and healthy mentally, and then note the effects of eating this junk, trash, horrible, manipulated and refined food. Butchered gunk poison you pour into your systems day after day ; ((((((

The cool thing is, THERE IS AN ANSWER AND A SOLUTION ; D

as with all man made problems, there is a way out and through the crisis.

Return to nature.



What's making capitalism unstable?

system Corruption, manipulation, the dumbing down and controlling of the public.

Debunk these two sourced quotes. And or tell me what they mean, opposite to what they explicitly seem to mean : |

George W. Bush:

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. He Never retracted this statement or appologized for it. Think about this, please. It's your world too.

"I once put it rather pungently, and I was flattered that the British Foreign Secretary repeated this, as follows: ... namely, in early times, it was easier to control a million people, literally it was easier to control a million people than physically to kill a million people. Today, it is infinitely easier to kill a million people than to control a million people. It is easier to kill than to control..." Zbignew Brzezinski

Put these things together, see the connections.
We are controlled, primarily, through the food we eat and things we watch/listen to.




this image is also cool, explains in vivid detail who planned what and what is happening to us. http://i.imgur.com/IuGaA.jpg

It's not random.

nothing is random, there is cause and effect everywhere.
nothing happens by chance

"Think It's Not illegal YET!" :p

[JFierce]

As someone else said in the video comments already. Vinegar can dissolve an eggshell in a day or so. Better not drink even a drop of vinegar right. It's about 365 times stronger by that logic =p


Not even going into the rest just like throwing out little quips.