The worth of a bachelors degree

[clarithium]

Looking back on my University experience, I didn't know whether anyone who taught me was a master in their field or not, but I sure as fuck remember whether they could teach or whether they just covered the blackboard in formulas while a bunch of students sat around looking like trapped animals.

I'd say in my college life at least 70% are the blackboard type who are absolutely miserable at teaching :/ Schools can't do jack shit about it either.

[Alice Herring]

Do people really hate college that much?

College was one of the best experiences in my life. Did it set me up to instantly enter the industry? No, not really. But it certainly did help. And while yes, I got lousy teachers like everyone else does, I also got extraordinary teachers who I can never thank enough for all that they imparted to me. Complaining that the "system" is broken only reveals one's own inability to make the most of the tremendous opportunities that college presents. When else will you have years devoted to the learning of your choice?

I think college is pretty sweet.

Are you kidding? I loved college! Working on projects and making 4 am runs to 7-11, pranking the instructors, (oh, they got even. acting like sleep deprived fools, crying in the bathroom because of a critique and trying to convince the instructor the red eyes were from being tired..(I don't think he believed me.) For the moments where all the frustration and failure suddenly comes together and I suddenly got it; for learning how art is a process, not just an end product. Being introduced to many, many artists I've never heard of, or pre-concieved ideas about art being challenged. Realizing the instructors are just as human and flawed as the rest of us...

Amazing. The most intense learning phrase I've ever been able to experience, simply because I had more time to devote to it. I wouldn't change it for anything; even when I found a class frustrating, I still learned something from it.

The bonus was getting a job from the first test I took almost right out of college - because I figured out what I wanted to do, what I needed to know to get there, and hassled every teacher I could to help me learn those skills.

For the record, I didn't even attend a private art school. I attended a public state university - and I'm still friends with so many of my classmates and professors.

[Alice Herring]

1. Sir Ken Robinson is awesome. You should check out his other talks, and also any of the RSA videos.

Interestingly enough, I find half the struggle a lot of people have when they study for commercial arts is to break those habits established by the school system. To have them experiment. Take risks. Learn from being creative. Learn from mistakes, instead of learning to be right.

As for the second one..have you watched it all the way through? Certain facts omitted, others overstated...their primary source of documentation is the NIA, which is the same institution funding the documentary? That's rather self-referential. They offer no opposing viewpoint. It's fear mongering. Starting out regarding college (never talking about the individual responsibility of people to make sure they can afford to pay back loans, instead blaming the government - what's with that?) then moves into jobs, food, etc...all to get to the point about a NWO where those will gold and silver will be the elite.

What does NIA pushing?

Gold and Silver Mines.

Think for yourself indeed.

[Dimension]

Your tuition pays her salary. What else do you think she would tell you? Quit now, this degree is worthless?

[bcarman]

oc, after removing all of your posts, were you wrong?, now you leave these hit and run salvos with no defense. Anyone here can find some viewpoint supporting anything and post it. You have yet to defend your opinion that "all" teachers and "all" schools are crap. There has never been an argument that education has its problems everywhere everyone knows that. But there are still some good teachers and good schools. How can you keep dismissing this argument? That would be the same as if I said, "This one time at band camp this guy drew a picture and it sucked and like he never went to school so if you don't go to school for art you will suck."

I get it, your school experience sucked and you see sucky automatons around and I believe you because I see the same people around me. But I also see the positive in schools because I've been there as have others.

[Atherium]

I went to the top art school in western Canada, it was a solid mix of liberal 70's mentality mixed with progressive ideology topped off with a large collection of outdated technology. In the end, I graduated with a degree in Integrated Media and now work for a VFX studio.

Here's my two cents...

I didn't realize it at the time but now in retrospect, university was the perfect environment for an artist because in the end, a degree, can only be what you make it and artists tend to make awesome out of nothing.

One of the things I hear more than ever is: "bachelors degrees are worthless now." I find this confusing, when I look at my group of friends and peers who did and did not put themselves through university- there is an stark income gap between them. I'm not saying one side of the coin is happier than the other because of that, I'm saying the innate monetary worth of a post secondary education is still definitely there.

What is happening more so than ever is the opportunity to gain your degree through online courses etc. and the value perception is economically skewed because people assume the more of something there is, the less it is worth. Tempered knowledge and refined skill sets don't exactly work that way.

What happened to most of my peers post grad was they kept the jobs they were working while in university. It was a smart move but there was less of a hunger to get out there and kick life right in the balls. Those that hit the ground running after receiving their degrees are working for top VFX studios such as MPC, ILM, Digital Domain and R&H. One of the fundamental reasons they were brought on as junior artists was their COMBINATION of degree and portfolio work. To any HR person, your value is based on what you bring to the table. A strong portfolio is a must, you add a degree in an applicable field, even better.

The great myth I've seen now in 6 years of university is "School will make me better." No, school is there for you to make YOURSELF better. It is on you, not your teachers, not the facilities or technology available for 10k a semester.

YOU!

Your degree is a reflection of that, and that image is a rocksteady pre determination of your abilities which, God help you, might open a couple doors that would normally be closed.

Now, there are people in this world who are so talented, so naturally skilled at what they do that a degree would seem like a waste of time... then why do you find so many of them still working through the academic system? Because they understand that the experience, of highs and lows, will be an important journey in their lives both personally and professionally... the beautiful part is that it doesn't have to end, I think that's called a PhD.

Don't ever base your choice of an education on "what will this be worth in the end?" base it on "Is this what I really want, is it the direction my life should go." and I promise you, it will be worth so much more than you ever imagined.

[Atherium]

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the general public.

- H. L. Mencken

A big part of writing in university is remembering the importance of sourcing witty quotes

[eskuid]

I'm not an artist but I have a question, why are you people so upright about punctuation and spelling? I mean it's a forum not an English class even though people should use proper punctuation most of the time but c'mon, as long as you can understand I don't think it should be a problem.

[Noah Bradley]

...why are you people so upright about punctuation and spelling?

Because this.

[eskuid]

uptight* sheesh seriously

[eskuid]

I did that on purpose just to prove my point fucking assholes.

[Tim Murphy]

I did that on purpose just to prove my point fucking assholes.

I must admit, I laughed out loud at that. That said, trolls do have a tendency to make me laugh.

[bcarman]

At least I start my day with a smile. Any chance that this is olivercartwright in new form.

[Raoul Duke]

Any chance that this is olivercartwright in new form.

We'll know once he gets around to deleting all of his posts.

woops... That wasn't an accident I did that on purpose. Because I is a smart from all of the not learning. All of that learning is make everybody stupid.

[eskuid]

Trolling? I'm being serious I'm not trolling, you guys are grammar Nazi's.

[Alice Herring]

Trolling? I'm being serious I'm not trolling, you guys are grammar Nazi's.

You mean Nazis.

[eskuid]

You mean Nazis.

Point proven.

[TinyBird]

Point proven.

Sarcasm lost.

[Alice Herring]

Sarcasm lost.

Can I declare the entire thread invalid because of Godwin's Law?

Anyway, I have this huge...uh..wall of text for ya'll on the topic of degrees. Just covering some things that I don't see people talk about a lot.

The statement “Bachelor's degrees are worthless” is effectively true. The award itself holds no meaning without the knowledge and experience gained through hard work and study. The degree is a result of the end product, not the end product itself. There are a variety of other factors in place as well: a lack of qualified instructors, grade inflation, cultural tendencies, and a saturation of the market of both schools and students.

The smartest thing anyone can do if they are planning to attend school is to do their own research.

This does not mean going to the nearest forum and asking around; this means finding out who the faculty are, and if they have any professional experience in the relevant field. Here's why research is a good thing:

Accreditation
I just spent and hour trying to read up on what accreditation is, and how a school is accredited. Talk about a nightmare in and of itself! “Accreditation is a voluntary, independent review of educational programs to determine that the education provided is of uniform and sound quality. Being awarded accreditation ensures that an institution has been evaluated and that it met set standards of quality determined by the accrediting organization granting the accreditation. A college or university's accreditation is maintained by continued adherence to the set criteria.” - http://www.back2college.com/library/accreditfaq.htm

The accrediting organization is not a government body, and there are six separate regional groups. Why is accreditation important to schools? In order to obtain federal aid and participate in state financial aid programs, a student usually has to be attending an accredited program. When I was looking into international loans to attend school in Canada, one of the requirements of Sally Mae was that the institution be accredited.

Why am I talking about accreditation? One of the requirements it to have a qualified faculty instructing the students. This is why Universities require full-time professors to have a terminal degree in their field. For art, that means an MFA. I would hope by now any reader would be clear that having a degree does not necessarily mean the individual is skilled or experienced. There is an exception where work experience can be used in place of a terminal degree, but very rarely is the waiver approved. For skill based fields like art where many working individuals do not have a degree, this narrows the possible applicant pool. This is why it's important to research a program's faculty members. Ideally, the individuals teaching should have more than a year or two industry experience. There are many talented professionals who are teaching as adjunct faculty, or have moved into teaching full-time because they enjoy it. To assume people teach because they couldn't find a job is just as ignorant as assuming teachers are knowledgable in their field because they are teachers. Any program worth their salt will still look at an applicant's portfolio, but there are others that don't. Buyer beware.

Grade Inflation
The other major issue affecting academic institutions is grade inflation. Or conversely, minimizing the amount of work and effort required in any given class to obtain the same grade. There is pressure on faculty to pass students; I'm not entirely sure regarding the cause, but I suspect economic and reputation to be two likely culprits. The other factor is the power student reviews have been given over a professor's career. In some institutions, poor reviews can mean not being able to obtain tenure, raises, and may even cause termination. Not all schools are like this, but it IS out there.

Market Saturation
The number of people attending college and the number of colleges awarding degrees seems to be pretty high right now, especially as online schools are now a part of that market. However because of the issues outlined above, not all students who receive bachelor degrees are equal. In effect, the bachelor degree can no longer be a benchmark for academic rigor. Thankfully for art it's more about the portfolio.


And Just For Fun, It's So Damn Expensive! (It's more than you think)

Because I haven't yet seen anyone break down the full financial cost.
Here is a list of schools and their current tuitions for undergraduate degrees (in no particular order
Art Center: 16,296 per term
CalArts: 37,687 per year
SVA: 14,775 per semester
Ringing: 16,140 per semester
SCAD: 30,510 per year
OTIS: 34,454 per year
RISD: 39,482 per year
Pratt: 37,500 per year

These costs do not include any additional fees the school may charge, nor housing or board. Some schools do offer scholarships, others don't. The average cost works out to about 34,256 per year. With no scholarships or grants, that's 137,024 for all four years of tuition only.

Using the loan calculator found here: http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

With a loan term of 10 years at a fixed interest rate of 6.8%, the monthly loan payment would be 1,576.88 a month. Total repayment: 189,225.04

So just take 20 years to repay it instead, right? It helps a little to lower the monthly payment, but because interest is calculated daily on the remaining balance, it actually means paying a lot more in the long run. Monthly Loan Payment would be 1,045.96, and the total repayment: 251,029.57. That means even with a fixed 6.8 interest rate, the amount of interest paid over 20 years for the loan would be 114,005.57.

Ouch.

Say between scholarships, personal savings, and grants, you only have a 40,000 loan. 10 year term, fixed 6.8% interest, the monthly loan payment would be 460.32 a month. Total repayment: 55,238.63.

Now I'm fairly certain that these calculators assume repayment is going to begin immediately after college. If they don't, or you have to take a long deferral due to unemployment or underemployment, the total repayment amount is going to go up. The higher the principle balance, the faster that interest owed is going to accumulate. This is usually the part that gets people into trouble.

When I was underwriting for a finance company, this is how we determined if the individual could afford their car:

Monthly income – auto insurance, rent, 100 dollars for each dependent, minimum payments owed to other creditors (listed on credit bureaus, ranging from credit cards to existing loans or student loans) 500 disposable, and car payment listed on contract > 0.

The cautious thing to do would be to make sure you could pay back the loans even if you don't get that high-paying job. This could mean working for a few years before attending school. This time could also be used to get a kick-ass portfolio together, to qualify for more scholarships. It also means if you hit 24, FAFSA considers you an adult student and no longer takes your parents' income into consideration. The downside is they will use your last year's W-2, irregardless if you are going to have the same hours or not.

I personally suggest cautious because student loans except for extreme situations cannot be included in Chapter 7 bankruptcies. A person would have to prove they are physically incapable to do the job they trained for due to disease or accident. It seems most people hit a critical point, where it seems impossible to pay the debt back because they cannot obtain a job that pays enough to cover the loan and everything else.

There are also public state schools with excellent programs, and places like Concept Design Academy, Schoolism, American Animation Institute, iAnimate, and Animation mentor who cost much less overall because they are not part of that academic system.

The most important thing anyone can take away from reading this or even just skimming it is to do your own research. Not all schools are equal. Be aware of the financial obligations a loan contract will put you in. The industry is very small, and as dpaint put it...

BEING AN ARTIST IS F#CKING HARD


“Making your living from your art is even harder and making your living from your art for a lifetime is so rare that we usually write books on them when they do.
Its not for dabblers, quitters, attention wh0res, daddy's little princess, or mammas boys.” -dpaint

- all tuition amounts obtained from the actual school websites

[Oliver_Cartwright]

Hi all,

I'm sorry for acting like a moron over the last couple of weeks. I just wanted to say, art school is what you make of it and even though I had a bad experience I still acknowledge good teachers and schools. Regardless of the above statistics, I believe the path to success consists of working really hard and staying true to yourself.

[Oliver_Cartwright]

The 'problem' was that you were attempting to invalidate other people's experiences.

Yes, I am sorry for that. Sometimes the cynic in me takes over and I end up stereotyping everything I disgree with.

[Vay]

I go to a city college in NYC, and boy are there some dumb people. I wonder if they might actually get a degree, which is pretty scary. Some of them just talk too damn much, even during class and loudly at that.

[NoKtPapilio]

I go to a city college in NYC, and boy are there some dumb people. I wonder if they might actually get a degree, which is pretty scary. Some of them just talk too damn much, even during class and loudly at that.

Do you also have people try to tell you that reptiles regulate their body temperature by shedding their skin? I never was the brightest crayon in the box myself, but things like that happen at my community college a lot. It's just kind of funny.

[Vay]

Do you also have people try to tell you that reptiles regulate their body temperature by shedding their skin? I never was the brightest crayon in the box myself, but things like that happen at my community college a lot. It's just kind of funny.

Sometimes they just don't want to think for themselves, so they decide to have the professor think for them. So they ask the professor a bunch of useless questions. They also keep screaming out false answers, hoping they will somehow land on the right answer. There are other obnoxious behaviors. I have been through public schools for several years and I still can't take it. I want to move out of here, especially out of this country before these people get employed. If only my parents were doctors or lawyers.

[Samuel Gray]

It's not necessarily "worthless", but it's "not required" as it used to/thought out to be.

[JFierce]

^ Oh the miracles of the internet where you can get countless tutorials, books, step by steps by other artists. Have others critique you etc etc etc etc....

[Arshes Nei]

The downside is they will use your last year's W-2, irregardless if you are going to have the same hours or not.

Dammit, all of this was good info...why you do this?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=irregardless

XD

[Alice Herring]

Dammit, all of this was good info...why you do this?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...m=irregardless

XD

SHAME ON ME. It was 1:30 in the morning! (although it's an excellent example of why people should still proof read, and not rely entirely on spell check or grammar check.)

[NoKtPapilio]

Sometimes they just don't want to think for themselves, so they decide to have the professor think for them. So they ask the professor a bunch of useless questions. They also keep screaming out false answers, hoping they will somehow land on the right answer. There are other obnoxious behaviors. I have been through public schools for several years and I still can't take it. I want to move out of here, especially out of this country before these people get employed. If only my parents were doctors or lawyers.

yeah. I understand =]

[hitnrun]

In art, the degree doesn't necessarily matter. If you want to work for a company, research their stuff, and tailor your portfolio to meet that companies needs. Any other field, like teaching, engineering, nuclear physicist, etc., people wanna see a degree hanging on your wall. Or at least that's how I feel about it.

I do know that some people would prefer to see a degree on your wall because that gives them confidence that you're not a complete idiot.