wtf is wrong with you guys?

[Lhune]

Because at some point Lhune, that newbie needs to make the damn effort to figure something out for themselves, personally I expect someone to already be aware of the basics anyway. Take a class. Read a friggin book. Go to the library or just read it in the bookstore. That is the filter. I am well aware that to a newbie it seems daunting and overwhelming and that they may not know what I say when I recommend "Learn the basics". But if they are so useless and lazy that they can't go, "Huh, I wonder what he means? Maybe I should find out" then they're not worth helping any further.

Most newbies do not have the experience or vocabulary of principles to handle in-depth critique anyway, so it doesn't do a bit of good. Nine times out of ten they need to work on basics.

People don't go to libraries anymore. I love books, but I'm one of the few of my age, not to mention those younger than me (and then the fact that in local libraries there are no decent books to be found on art). Schools are getting rid of books, students are now forced to buy laptops instead. Paper exams are being thrown out. Is that the fault of the students? They're made lazy. Taking a class is not that easy either. There are none in my area, I'd have to travel a long way (spending money I barely have) for a half-assed class with no really professional mentor, because there simply are none. For me and thousands of others, people on the internet are all we can look to for some proper advise. They've simply started somewhere, hoping that they're going somewhat in the right direction, looking up tutorials which half the time aren't even reliable. People of which you know have knowledge in art are by far more reliable than your average how-to-draw-guide on the internet, you know. Art-wise, the internet is like standing in a giant library with thousands of books on art, and someone's telling you to just find the right ones. That's why I'm saying, it's easier for all of us if you just give them a little nudge in the right direction and that's that. Doesn't take you that much extra time and it saves everyone a lot of frustration. I guess I just don't really understand why someone has to make do with "learn the basics" when you know it's going to leave them confused, while it would take you barely 30 seconds longer to make it perfectly clear.

Again, not saying you should take them by the hand and lead them through the entire process, but just that tiny little bit extra.

[Mr. Corlan]

I agree with the attack on Chatty Cathy, heck, I'm sitting here fiddling around on CA when I should be in my studio drawing and improving myself.

My opinion on this whole thread is: Sure, anyone in the world with an internet, pencil, and paper (or even without the internet) can teach themselves to be a great artist, but sometimes they end up learning the long, hard way. A couple of comments or a quick demo from a good teacher is often several times more productive than a few hours spent copying a book. Of course the student has to listen to the teacher and work hard to put the info into practice for it to do any good. People who don't listen to crits are stupid, and they won't receive nearly as much help or learn nearly as fast as those who do listen. Why waste your time arguing with them? The whole point of this website is to help other people onto the track where they will make the most progress, if they won't take the directions, then heck with them. But don't let a few morons ruin everything for the serious people.

Everyone wishes for the good old days, when we were tough, the grass was greener and the larvae showed you some respect. They just don't make 'em like they used to.

[Bette]

For the "study the basics" comment, there happens to be a wonderful sticky about this subject in the top of this very forum section. http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26636 any newbie looking at that thread will at least get a few good keywords for his/hers goggle hunt. But i have a feeling that few people who come here the first time bother reading the sticky's... "forum lurking" before posting is a really good idea, there's so much knowledge and community spirit, its very inspiring. I think that might be one of the problems with the posts in this forum section. I feel old saying this but everything is moving so fast these days, there's no reflection or research before posting.

How you react to feedback and critique depends what sort of people you usually surround yourself with. I was lucky enough to start my journey for better art in a very focused and ambitious crowd. Sadly this meant that when i started at my new school,where the crowd was lazy and didn't have knowledge of basic principles, i came across as a rude bitch to them. Isn't that the same as the clash we're seeing on the forum?

This subject always seem to spawn a very heated debate, very interesting to follow, though sad to see how fast people seem to go on the mud flinging.

I haven't been on CA for that long, sone_one mentions this forum being different some years back, was this topic discussed in the past as it is being now?

[Lhune]

You said thirty percent thats closer to fifty than it is to zero. And don't talk to me like I'm not a currently working professional. Theory is just that, and yours are meaningless until you actually work as a pro.

You act like I'm sitting in a rocking chair with my teeth in a glass talking about the good old days. I'm not, I bet I produce more work that I get paid for than 90 percent of the people on this site. I am working constantly, right now. And its not talking down to someone who thinks they know something but isn't actually doing it.

Tech and networking only helps you if your good at what you do. Otherwise you will be just a wannabe with a lot of friends that talks a good game but never could make it to the pro's.

You're impossible to argue with. I have great respect for everything you have accomplished, truly. But you say I'm acting like you're some old man talking about the good old days, well that's exactly what you're doing. You will not listen to anyone who has accomplished less than you meaning that practically everyone who is more than 5 years younger than you will not stand a chance in any kind of discussion. Tech and networking has helped a couple of technically horrible artists on deviantART being able to charge more than most artists on this site as well, I dare bet. They didn't have to lock themselves up in a room, in fact they did the opposite and it's paying off for them something good. Ah well.

Guess I'll attempt to talk to you again when I've finished school and have five years of experience under my belt then.

[Brandon Pilcher]

If I stop by side of the road to give you a ride you don't get to call me up again to give you rides whenever you want. And if I only choose to give you a ride halfway it doesn't give you the right to bitch about how arrogant I am for not driving you to your door and helping you out of the car. Nor do you get to bitch about the kind of car I'm riding, the music I listen to or the fact that I don't share my coffee with you.

Nobody owes newbies anything, Brandon. If you don't like it you know where you can find books and courses.

But we're not talking about a situation where someone gave me a ride once and I'm asking them for rides again and again. A better analogy would be me asking for directions for the first time and someone telling me "find your own way back" despite me not knowing how to get back in the first place.

I admit that I chose my words poorly when I said "demand" in the other thread, and I am sorry for that, but I see nothing wrong with asking for a little more help than "figure it out for yourself".

And I notice that when quoting me you omitted this part, which explains exactly why the kind of answer you want to give me isn't always helpful:

It does not occur to these guys that some newbies might misinterpret what they're studying and keep on rendering it inaccurately until someone points out their error. As an example, I've done many leg studies, but I would always get the knees wrong until someone was kind enough to tell me exactly how they looked wrong. Were it not for that particular piece of feedback I would keep getting them wrong.

[JeffX99]

People don't go to libraries anymore. I love books, but I'm one of the few of my age, not to mention those younger than me (and then the fact that in local libraries there are no decent books to be found on art). Schools are getting rid of books, students are now forced to buy laptops instead. Paper exams are being thrown out. Is that the fault of the students? They're made lazy. Taking a class is not that easy either. There are none in my area, I'd have to travel a long way (spending money I barely have) for a half-assed class with no really professional mentor, because there simply are none. For me and thousands of others, people on the internet are all we can look to for some proper advise. They've simply started somewhere, hoping that they're going somewhat in the right direction, looking up tutorials which half the time aren't even reliable. People of which you know have knowledge in art are by far more reliable than your average how-to-draw-guide on the internet, you know. Art-wise, the internet is like standing in a giant library with thousands of books on art, and someone's telling you to just find the right ones. That's why I'm saying, it's easier for all of us if you just give them a little nudge in the right direction and that's that. Doesn't take you that much extra time and it saves everyone a lot of frustration. I guess I just don't really understand why someone has to make do with "learn the basics" when you know it's going to leave them confused, while it would take you barely 30 seconds longer to make it perfectly clear.

Again, not saying you should take them by the hand and lead them through the entire process, but just that tiny little bit extra.

I generally do offer more than "Learn the basics" - you know that I'm sure. It has become a joke here about how often I recommend "Drawing Essentials" - many have bought copies I'm sure. I also recommend "Imaginitive Realism" frequently...and reading the Loomis books. But, still most the time only a small percentage of the people I try to "nudge in the right direction" follow through or appreciate it. The others bitch at me and call me arraogant. This kind of crap would NEVER happen in person, nor would I have bitched at someone like Gurney, Syd Mead, Iain McCaig or any other more experienced artist than myself when they offered me advice (and all those guys have). I listened to what they say, I read their books and I try to follow their example.

I'll cut this short. It comes down to one thing - people are either going to figure it out and learn or they aren't. They did it before electricity, they did it before the internet, and they're doing it now. Not everyone is going to become an artist here, the ones curious enough and interested enough will, the rest won't, just like yesterday. The curious ones will figure out what some of us mean when we say "You need to learn to draw". The rest will whine about it. In the end, the same ones who would have learned then will learn now, the rest will have an excuse.

Aside: To be honest, the internet is a really sucky place to try to find out anything any more - mainly because the signal to noise ratio is horrible. So I agree it can be hard to find decent information - which is why I spend so much time and effort saying keep it simple, learn the basics, here's what they are. Also why I recommend books so much - but I've even had numerous arguments with wannabes about that.

[JeffX99]

...but I see nothing wrong with asking for a little more help than "figure it out for yourself".

Because in the end you DO have to figure it out for yourself.

Music is even a better analogy:

Student: I don't get why I can't play Segovia?
Teacher: Well, you need to learn your scales, practice chord shanges, etc.

Following week...
Student: I still can't play Segovia!
Teacher: Did you work on your scales? Chord progressions?
Student: No, I wanna play Segovia!

[Lhune]

On a different note, I'm too tired for this right now, so if I don't reply from here on it's cause I'm sleeping. Guess I could use a fresh eye on the discussion as well, I may be missing things.

Just saying, to make sure that it's clear at least, that I'm not actually disagreeing with you guys. I'm not speaking up for lazy artists. Hell I even wrote a wall of text protesting against them on deviantART only recently. I just think it's a little too black and white to think that anyone who comes here and does not immediately understand and respect given feedback no matter how short, blunt or confusing is not a worthy artist. We were all shit at this at some point. We all got confused or stuck once. We've all made mistakes. Just saying it would probably help everyone if we were only slightly more patient with one another. You can't tell me you don't have time to spend that one extra minute it might take (and that is to both the artist who gives as well as they who receive the critique).

[Nezumi Works]

I'll be honest Jeff, the number of times I've seen you called arrogant here, I can count on the thumbs of one foot.

[Brandon Pilcher]

Because in the end you DO have to figure it out for yourself.

Music is even a better analogy:

Student: I don't get why I can't play Segovia?
Teacher: Well, you need to learn your scales, practice chord shanges, etc.

But what if the student tries to learn and practice those things and still gets it wrong without knowing what he's doing wrong?

That being said, I am really tired of this discussion and expect it to end up like 90% of Internet debates: a futile exchange in which no one changes their mind. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some sketching to do.

[JeffX99]

I'll be honest Jeff, the number of times I've seen you called arrogant here, I can count on the thumbs of one foot.

Really? Maybe I'm taking it too personally, but when people mention how they hate to hear arrogant, expereinced artists say useless things like, "Learn the basics" it always seems like they're referring to me - because I frequently offer that advice. It's come up a few times recently. Oh well.

Thumbs on your feet would be cool! But I wouldn't want big toes on my hands.

[JeffX99]

But what if the student tries to learn and practice those things and still gets it wrong without knowing what he's doing wrong?

That would be a different situation Brandon. It rarely happens that you tell someone they need to get back to basics...and they actually follow that advice. Instead they forge ahead, flailing about for weeks trying to finish something doomed from the start. But yes, in your example that person would be deserving of further guidance.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some sketching to do.

Anyway, yeah - that's good right there. Me too - but it is really hot here.

[williams73]

well I love spirited debate and since we are doing it I thought I would join in...
firstly I think the world of a young person showing his/her work here and saying hey what do you all think, what can I do to make it better...... and what are the basics is a valid point.....lighting, composition, anatomy, perspective, etc..... I am not a professional artist I know I have a lot to learn, still I do have a BA in art ,I am 38 years old and I still suck but I want/desire to be better I draw in my sketchbook I try and read as much and as many books about creating art as I can I subscribe to magazines about art and yet many times I consider myself a fan of the idea of artist more than an artist..mostly because the almighty dollar and the need to eat and mortgage and well all those things........so I do not have what it takes to give myself over to art....
So let me finish by saying this, yes the internet has allowed us all to rant to the world at large and everything I say must be important because after all I said it.......but really all we can do is present our point of view and what happens to it in cyberspace after that.....well I'm still pissed off about not having flying cars like the Jetsons by now like my popular science magazines told me I would
side note when I was 16 or so I was sure I was going to be a comicbook artist when I grew up so I ordered this book

many years later I discovered Hogarth and Andrew Loomis and George Bridgman.......so I guess if you say something in a convincing enough manner it must be true, after all I saw it on the internets it must be true...

[Swamp Thing]

omg this discussion is so karate-tiger.
John Claude van Damme (the "noob") - "master, I'm from amercia, I am a professional fighter there."
Xian Chow (the pro) - "learn the basics before coming here!"
John Clause van Damme (the "n00b") - master, I can't cut the bamboo with my leg kicks, I'm injured of all the kicking, my leg seems broke, I'm sure it will be cut off with the next hit."
Xian Chow (the teacher) - "Then fucking leave my home and give up!"

So many good artists here just got pissed off by comments which had nothing to do with help but pushing the role of the critic over the artist. This is the result. No more artists posting. Only some kids who are not taking their art serious enough to read what's going on here anyways.

Serious artists posted here in 2005, maybe because they actually GOT critique from pros, while today those either answer nothing or just treat artists which are on the right track like noobs without any further explanations. Those missing posts get filled with the less-skilled artists suggestions, which are either basic knowledge the artist already gained by himself or just nonsense critques by noobs who have no idea.
Some people say their time is too important to waste it on critique, but at the same time this thread got a lot of more time invested than any artist for his work, mainly about complaining, whining and putting the fault on newbs rather than thinking about how this could happen and what could be done against it.

Edit: Anybody who takes this personal should think about if he really can include himself. This is general, not personal.

Instead their could be a more neat arranged list of sticky threads with guides and links - most sticky here are about how to live with critique and how to behave, what you have to swallow about stuff that isn't actually clearly explained. It's self-explaining that nobody is going to read all pages of all threads here before posting.



@sone one

You're from vienna by yourself, and you should know how hard it is here to find a school where you can learn serious art, beside some courses (mostly guided by amateurs who behave like pros). All you can do is giving enough blow-jobs to visit austria's only famous art-oriented university, just to find out you actually wasted 5 years of your live there without getting better. After this you can use your master/bachelor of art like an advertizement-poster to get a frustrating job, where you are able to save up enough money (or do more blow-jobs) to leave this town, getting a better study outside of austria and eventually moving back here when you're 40, just to be able to say you are a skilled artist living in vienna. What I try to say is, that it is not easy to start drawing serious, as some people just don't have the doors open for it, and they are coming here to learn it by doing and by getting informed where they actually stand and what books they should read, what stuff they should pay more attention to etc.
Let's assume they are already pretty frustrated because of their situation and what they had been going through for nothing already, and then getting - after learnig all this basic stuff at hard to enter schools - treated like a noob with no skills.

The other story is, that many artists are definately not deciding to draw on a digital medium because they want to be cool - this isn't making any sense - they do it because they maybe have not enough money or a too small room for a hobby like drawig with oil /acryl on canvas. And seriously, drawing with a pen on paper is very restrictive - not to mention you will never learn how color works. Even if you still are not a pro with anatomy and shading, you want to break out, try drawing something refreshing - the point where you want to post here for getting some other opinions. And of course you always show work that is above your limits and that shows something you can't handle, otherwise you wouldn't ask for help. Instead I often see "pros" posting finished pictures here, thanking people who tell them they rule the world and ignoring others who critique. This isn't any better at all.

[Mr. Corlan]

Haha. I agree Jeff, I think I've heard general implications that you are an arrogant old bugger several times (at least six) in the last few weeks I've been hanging around here.

[Jason Rainville]

dpaint, I love you dude, I really do and I agree with everything you've pretty much ever said... but please...

so excuse me if I don't think your opinion about something you don't do for a living and I do, matters.

Stop using that to say the things we'd all listen to anyways. :/

[Elwell]

I've been here a looooong time. I've given a lot of crits. I feel under no obligation to crit everyone, or anyone. If something is interesting, and I think I have something useful to say, I say it. Most things are not interesting. Silence is a form of critique.

[Elwell]

Also, answering "how do I begin" or "where do I start" questions is pointless. If you don't have enough initiative to answer those questions yourself, you're not going to do anything anyway.

[Brandon Pilcher]

After recalling an interaction I once had with a younger, even less experienced artist on DeviantArt, I now understand why people like Jeff and sone_one don't like "spoon-feeding" newbies. This particular artist I'm talking about was so lacking in basic skills that it was difficult for me to point out each and every flaw in his drawings (though their messy quality was perhaps the most outstanding problem). Instead all I could tell him was something along the lines of "look at how-to-draw books". Now, to be sure, part of the problem was that I wasn't qualified to give him decent anatomical and proportional critiques, since I have difficulty with anatomy and proportion myself, but still I can see why some professionals don't want to go into the trouble of listing every problem with a rookie's production.

[JeffX99]

Haha. I agree Jeff, I think I've heard general implications that you are an arrogant old bugger several times (at least six) in the last few weeks I've been hanging around here.

Thanks Mr. Corlan - seriously. At least it means I haven't been mistaking or misconstruing those implications.

[JeffX99]

After recalling an interaction I once had with a younger, even less experienced artist on DeviantArt, I now understand why people like Jeff and sone_one don't like "spoon-feeding" newbies. This particular artist I'm talking about was so lacking in basic skills that it was difficult for me to point out each and every flaw in his drawings (though their messy quality was perhaps the most outstanding problem). Instead all I could tell him was something along the lines of "look at how-to-draw books". Now, to be sure, part of the problem was that I wasn't qualified to give him decent anatomical and proportional critiques, since I have difficulty with anatomy and proportion myself, but still I can see why some professionals don't want to go into the trouble of listing every problem with a rookie's production.

Good insight Brandon - and exactly the problem. This is what I talk about when I mention that most newbies lack the awareness and vocabulary for specific critique anyway. This isn't a put down or insult, it just means they aren't ready for it - it wouldn't make any sense to point out all the problems - because the problems are with basics.

[thegiffman]

Good insight Brandon - and exactly the problem. This is what I talk about when I mention that most newbies lack the awareness and vocabulary for specific critique anyway. This isn't a put down or insult, it just means they aren't ready for it - it wouldn't make any sense to point out all the problems - because the problems are with basics.

I understand the frustration, but in the end I don't ultimately buy it. I remember working out stick figures as a 3 year old, and discovering that all of a sudden if I used a circle, rather than 5 lines, for a hand that was holding something, it looked more life like. Now, don't get me started on my lack of form, anatomy, color theory, and lighting. My goodness, my problem was with the basics. But nevertheless, when I saw one of my son's drawings, and saw him use the 5 line method, I shared with him the trick about the circle.

Perhaps these newbies need to be told they just aren't ready for this forum yet. I just discovered it myself a week or two ago, and, speaking as one who wasn't there for the "good old days", y'all have a real gold mine of a culture here that I'm privileged to be in on! Maybe that's fair. But if I can help my son with his stick figures, I figure I can probably help someone in between his skill level and mine as well. If someone has an eagerness and willingness to learn, then why not offer some advice for their next step if you have the patience, and ignore them if you don't?

What I said in Brandon's thread, I will repeat here, with absolutely no apologies or ambiguity. Needing to work on the basics does NOT mean someone should be discouraged from attempting a subject they find interesting. For crying out loud, that's how we all fell in love with art - NONE of us worked on pure mechanics until some amazing day when we graduated into drawing what we enjoyed. All it means is that they should be encouraged to supplement this fun with "work", and apply some insights from the work into the fun. Not that the work isn't fun, and the fun isn't work, but I think you can see what I mean.

If some people don't have time and patience to play "art teacher" that's fine. But that doesn't justify being nasty and dismissive. No lack of skill justifies that. It needs to be about attitude, not ability. We all suck compared to some.

[JeffX99]

I understand the frustration, but in the end I don't ultimately buy it.

You just haven't offered enough critique and been bitched at for it is all.

Perhaps these newbies need to be told they just aren't ready for this forum yet.

I will gladly pass the baton to you giffman. Enjoy!

But that doesn't justify being nasty and dismissive. No lack of skill justifies that.

OMG - ok, for the most part I agree with your thoughts. But, again you close with the implication that somehow offering the best advice ever is nasty and dismissive. I try never to discourage anyone and in fact often mention that if they want to improve their art they need to learn drawing fundamentals. These fundamentals/basics are not secret information hidden away...they are clearly defined, illustrated and spoken of in any good book on drawing or painting.

[thegiffman]

OMG - ok, for the most part I agree with your thoughts. But, again you close with the implication that somehow offering the best advice ever is nasty and dismissive. I try never to discourage anyone and in fact often mention that if they want to improve their art they need to learn drawing fundamentals. These fundamentals/basics are not secret information hidden away...they are clearly defined, illustrated and spoken of in any good book on drawing or painting.

Again? I didn't know I had a history of this. But, seriously, I regret any implication - it wasn't intentional at all. I don't have any of your critiques specifically in mind. The nasty and dismissive stuff, if we must be specific, had to do with the author of this thread calling Brandon a snotty kid who thinks he's the center of the universe.

[erinc]

I agree with thegiffman. I think the reason why us newer people are having trouble understanding the problem is because 1) we weren't around in the good old days when everyone was great or very nearly and 2) we haven't been around long enough to become irked by the general attitude of those new (or newer) to art.

So, my question would be to the older (in terms of time here, not age ) members -- what do you think should be done about it? You're obviously displeased with the way things are at the moment, so what changes do you suggest to rectify the situation?

Is the answer to ban people who aren't as advanced as you like or tell them not to post? Is the answer to create a second "WIP section" -- one for people who are new (artistically speaking) and one for those who are intermediate or advanced? Are you asking people not to critique anything unless they feel it's potentially good, or feel the submitter has spent a significant enough amount of time to warrant a response? Maybe have some system in place to prevent people from posting a work without first reading through something about the basics of art? Maybe prevent people from posting images until they're approved by a moderator?

I'm not being facetious -- I'm genuinely curious how people feel the problem should be fixed, rather than just discussing how it was before those with less professional experience found the forum.

[vineris]

I don't think there's really much of a problem overall. It's just that critique is non-trivial work, good critique is in high demand but short supply, critiquers get snappish and irritable, eventually some newbie comes along who says the wrong thing and it all goes south for a bit.

It's frustrating to get C&C and it's frustrating to give it. But we're all still here, so we must want to be. Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who, let's just get on with things and remember that nobody HAS to do anything. Nobody's got to give help, nobody's got to accept it.

[thegiffman]

You just haven't offered enough critique and been bitched at for it is all.

Hah - fair enough. I do think those of you who have been burned need to be careful not to project too much of that on people who don't deserve it. If someone is an arrogant prick who can't take criticism - who is overly defensive and argues with perfectly reasonable critiques and takes it personally - well, I say start with one gentle rebuke, and the proceed with the community shaming. I may be wearing the "Mr. Nice Guy" hat at the moment, but I've also said that I like the culture here, and I mean it. I'm just saying we should let each individual earn it before it gets dished out. I'm sure you agree - just offering the reminder, because it's easy to forget when you're frustrated, and vent it out.

[JeffX99]

Again? I didn't know I had a history of this. But, seriously, I regret any implication - it wasn't intentional at all.

Yeah sorry, the "again" was meant in the collective, not the specific or personal to you. Oh and, welcome to CA btw, if no one has yet! It gets like this sometimes.

[JeffX99]

So, my question would be to the older (in terms of time here, not age ) members -- what do you think should be done about it? You're obviously displeased with the way things are at the moment, so what changes do you suggest to rectify the situation?

Is the answer to ban people who aren't as advanced as you like or tell them not to post? Is the answer to create a second "WIP section" -- one for people who are new (artistically speaking) and one for those who are intermediate or advanced? Are you asking people not to critique anything unless they feel it's potentially good, or feel the submitter has spent a significant enough amount of time to warrant a response? Maybe have some system in place to prevent people from posting a work without first reading through something about the basics of art? Maybe prevent people from posting images until they're approved by a moderator?

Good questions Erin - I've wracked my brains trying to figure out a workable idea. Essentially the problems come down to respect, expectations, and the anonymity of the internet. Which means there aren't really any viable solutions unfortunately.

You'll find that many who receive simple, "get back to basics" critique take it well and to heart. The problem is those that don't take it well for whatever reason, and then those that jump in to defend them. Which makes those of us trying to help reluctant to do so. For the most part I hear people saying, "Well, don't bother critiquing then", or something along those lines. Which is probably the best thing to do.

I think Elwell had it right on the mark - if something is interesting he comments, if not he doesn't.

[RoboBobo]

Two major things I notice about these types of artists are that 1) They expect to get stars. Getting stars on this site seems to be the driving force behind a lot of content. Sure, a well known artist automatically gets stars when viewers see others doing it at a fast pace. Then the thread picks up steam because the content is very good and engaging. These new artists get pissed off once they realize that the CA community is just trying to help even though the crits can be brutal and their work gets shot down. People EARN stars here, its not a given. I myself don't always get stars but I don't gripe about it. I just try and get better. 2) many young artists are skipping the good ol' pencil to paper technique and flying right into digital art. That's a big no-no. DeviantArt (there are good artists on there) is more of a pat-on-the-back approach instead of a slap-in-the-face.