Confused about gesture drawing

[supermonchi]

Hi everyone,

I'm currently reading and following the drawing exercises from the the book Natural Way to Draw by Nicolaides.

With gesture drawing, whilst I enjoy doing it, I'm getting more and more confused about the point of the exercise.

Is it a simple 'warm up' exercise and a simple way to make a mental note of something to draw later?

Is it just to improve your eye-hands coordination, or more towards being able to recognise the main gist of the pose, or both?

Is it meant to become a basis of something to build on later, or is it simply a throwaway prototypes? I don't get how you can build on something that is so scribbly, sometimes I forget what I've drawn.

Is it more important to capture the whole 'big picture' or should I focus only on the main important areas? I find my drawings make a lot more sense if I do both, but often I get caught in the details and start drawing the edges (which you are not meant to do?) and with the quick 30-60 seconds drawings there's often no time to do both.

Is the point to draw quickly or accurately? For beginners like myself, what should I focus on - draw quickly and lots of it, draw less but more accurately or feel the pose and be able to memorise it for later?

Is gesture drawing meant to be loose and scribbly or is it meant to be nice and clean with least amount of strokes possible? Or does it not matter what you do?

Lastly, where do you go from gesture drawings? Should you try build on it, or do you use it simply to jot down memories of what the pose was, and start from scratch? Or am I missing the point?

I've included some of my Posemaniacs gesture drawings in the attachments. These are done in between 30-60 seconds.

Lately I try to draw while watching movies and the results are really not good - nothing more than a bunch of scribbles. Should I avoid doing this or do I just need to persevere more and keep practising?

What are your thoughts? Any tips, crits or feedback?

I like Nicolaides' approach to drawing but unfortunately the example drawings in the book are not done by him, so it's really hard to imagine what he's really trying to say.

Can anyone recommend other drawing books that have similar structured exercises?

Sorry for the many questions, I'm really lost here ..

[CRYPT]

here is your answer

draw aloooooooot

[cro-magnon]

what do you want from your drawing, for starters?

[Xeon_OND]

http://vilppustore.com/vilppublog/20...esture-part-1/
http://vilppustore.com/vilppublog/20...esture-part-2/

[Arshes Nei]

Look at the bottom of the page and notice the "Similar Threads"

READ THEM.

[vineris]

Gesture drawing is used to capture things quickly and loosely. I use it mostly when I'm sketching in public where people don't stop and pose for me, but it's also useful to get a pose I'm thinking of down and see where the movement in it lies.

What you do with it afterwards is up to you, I guess.

BTW, don't bother memorizing poses. There's no point. You build a pose from memory by constructing it from more simple parts and plugging in knowledge of anatomy, perspective, etc.. You don't haul it out from the mental freezer in one solid chunk. Just like if you want to write novels, memorizing a vocabulary and grammar is far more useful than memorizing entire books.

[Lamp]

The point of gesture drawing is to capture the essence of the pose before worrying about details or anatomy. Essentially, to get the "story" of the pose down first and foremost. The story can be as simple as "guy relaxing and leaning back" or "girl stretching forward to pick something up." If you focus on anatomy or individual parts you will lose the story of the pose, and then what is the point the drawing you have made? Draw first to communicate what is happening in this particular pose, not to impress people with your knowledge of anatomy or fancy rendering -- those aren't the things that will give your figure drawing a sense of life. And if capturing the story of the pose is your aim, it makes no sense to approach drawing the figure without getting the gesture down first. No matter how finished you want your final drawing to be, you will benefit by first capturing the gesture.

No, of course your drawings don't have to look like the ones in the art books -- who exactly would be enforcing such a rule? There are a thousand different approaches you could take. When you are making marks your are putting down information about the pose -- which information you want to get down is up to you. Take notes but don't be a slave to another artist. Personally I would not approach gesture drawing with the same scribbly style of Nicolaides, but that's just me. Further, there are no rules about when your drawing stops being a "gesture" and starts becoming a figure drawing, stop trying to separate the concepts and think of it like it is just the natural first step, like laying down the steel framework of a house before you put on the siding.

[Inkednerd]

Lamp, Exon and Vineris,

great advice guys, much more helpful than just "READ THE SIMILAR POSTS".

[Arshes Nei]

Lamp, Exon and Vineris,

great advice guys, much more helpful than just "READ THE SIMILAR POSTS".

REALLY? So you didn't read the links, because the information actually repeats itself. There's more to learn.

For you sir: http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=223223

[vineris]

Lamp, Exon and Vineris,

great advice guys, much more helpful than just "READ THE SIMILAR POSTS".

But you should still read the similar posts. If you only get answers to questions you think of asking, you'll be missing all the answers to questions you don't even know exist (and all the answers given by people who are no longer around to talk to you personally).

Just because you didn't like the form the advice took doesn't mean it wasn't good advice!

[Charlie D]

LOL Arshes Nei

[Inkednerd]

Oh I'm very able to do that, thanks. But then tell the guy there's helpful information there, not just "READ THEM" . I'm sure if you asked for help, and that was the response you got, I'm sure you would not appreciate it. Artists are supposed to a community, either help them or don't. You can contribute positively or negatively to the world- your choice.

[Arshes Nei]

Oh I'm very able to do that, thanks. But then tell the guy there's helpful information there, not just "READ THEM" . I'm sure if you asked for help, and that was the response you got, I'm sure you would not appreciate it. Artists are supposed to a community, either help them or don't. You can contribute positively or negatively to the world- your choice.

I don't ask much because I know how to use search. I know there isn't some magic bottle response on a site with unpaid volunteers to give you all the answers.

I got back and read posts from many years ago on this site. If it means a few days of searching, so be it. I don't mind

Being told there's a useful function below doesn't bother me. So what what if it's blunt. It's to the point. I'm a grown adult. So what is it you're saying?

[Inkednerd]

Arshes,

I'm not out for war, really. I just feel you could be a little nicer. Telling him to read the posts in angry capital letters, like he's such an idiot for not knowing to this already- it's a little mean, not just blunt. Why couldn't you just say "There's valuable stuff in the older posts take a look". That's blunt and to the point too.

[Arshes Nei]

Arshes,

I'm not out for war, really. I just feel you could be a little nicer. Telling him to read the posts in angry capital letters, like he's such an idiot for not knowing to this already- it's a little mean, not just blunt. Why couldn't you just say "There's valuable stuff in the older posts take a look". That's blunt and to the point too.

You should also learn not to pick on posts all the time and be oversensitive. If you're not out for war back off, be quiet a little and lurk more. It's blunt, you're overreacting.

There's plenty of information on this site that has been repeated and re-shared. Stop wasting your time trying to direct the info, and learn what info is there.

[Inkednerd]

I'm just fine with my sensitivity thanks. I just feel you could be more helpful, and less sarcastic or mean. It's my opinion just like the ones you are having about me right now. I'm sorry to offend you, but I just feel there are people who are a lot better at giving help, who don't get frustrated with people asking for it.

Later. Done with this, and you.

[arenhaus]

Is it a simple 'warm up' exercise and a simple way to make a mental note of something to draw later?

Yes.

Is it just to improve your eye-hands coordination, or more towards being able to recognise the main gist of the pose, or both?

Yes.

Is it meant to become a basis of something to build on later, or is it simply a throwaway prototypes?

Yes.

Is it more important to capture the whole 'big picture' or should I focus only on the main important areas?

Yes.

Is the point to draw quickly or accurately? For beginners like myself, what should I focus on - draw quickly and lots of it, draw less but more accurately or feel the pose and be able to memorise it for later?

Both.

Is gesture drawing meant to be loose and scribbly or is it meant to be nice and clean with least amount of strokes possible? Or does it not matter what you do?

Either.

Lastly, where do you go from gesture drawings? Should you try build on it, or do you use it simply to jot down memories of what the pose was, and start from scratch? Or am I missing the point?

You are missing all six points so far.

Gesture drawing is about the ability to capture the essence of the pose and action (ACTION, you must look for the action first) quickly. It does not matter what you do to capture it as long as it is quick and readable. If you fumble, it is not gesture drawing. If you try to finish it, it is not gesture drawing. If it is an unreadable mess, it is not gesture drawing.

It is not an end in itself; it can be used as a way to sketch quickly, but it is more useful to train yourself to think in terms of action, and be quick and confident in drawing.

If you find it difficult to do it quickly, don't try to be quick. Work at the pace you are comfortable with, but work in a gestural way: looking at the action, discerning the important things, and capturing them in economical, readable, expressive line. You can work on drawing quickly after you learn to draw well.

[amyersco]

At uni I was told never to draw the human figure without beginning with a gesture. At first I balked at the idea since I didn't see how a 30sec-1min rough sketch could possibly help, but the more you draw live people the more you'll understand:

Gestures are meant to capture generalities about your subject rather than specifics, but are equally important in the finished drawing. They train your eye to see, quickly (and you will need to see quickly when drawing from life) things like: the "movement" of the body -- how parts, like the torso, twist, what angles the limbs are at, the primary/secondary focal points that the eyes are attracted to, (even or uneven) weight distribution, tense vs relaxed areas (usually at counterpoint to each other).

You can draw the most anatomically and proportionally accurate figure without a gesture, but chances are it'll look stiff and formal like an anatomical model or a Poser render. Why? Because you've missed out on the dynamics, silly. You can't forget that when doing any work you're converting a 3-dimensional object into a 2D object, and so things will flatten unless you emphasize that sense of movement and shifts in the body that I've mentioned before. Gestures force you to see these things because you don't have much time to convert from eye-to-hand anything else.

Practicing gestures is also a good way of quickly getting down the general proportions of the body (which is infinitely more interesting, compositionally speaking, when you have things bending and twisting and foreshortening rather than have everything at parallel angle).

I hated gestures for about the first month of my first figure drawing class. Now I can't do without them.

[armando]

There are several opinions on what the meaning of gesture drawing is. What they all have in common is that you look at something and draw it. Some artist, like Mentler, don't use the word. You should follow his example, and translate the word everytime you see it. You can figure out a person's level of understanding based on their use of logical statement structure and by looking at their drawings. In art it takes one to know one, most good advice goes over the average scribbler's head, therefore popular-opinion is not worth very much because common people talk about common things. "Gesture" can usually be translated to: body-language, layout, or warmup execise...

[Chris Bennett]

In art it takes one to know one, most good advice goes over the average scribbler's head, therefore popular-opinion is not worth very much because common people talk about common things.

One of the reasons I, like many others here, take the trouble to post answers to questions is because there is so much information proffered by people simply not qualified to give it, which results in plenty of mis-information.

All the good stuff on this site is generally given by guys with anything over 15 years of experience, and on top of that the analytical powers to break their knowledge down and transmute it to word structures that can communicate what is in essence a visual language.

Often these bedrock principles are taken to be tips... and that annoys the hell out of me.
But occasionally something causes a light to go on in a youngster's brain because of something you have said - and that is one of the most satisfying things I know.
Their joy in this moment is like the epiphany, when learning to ride a bicycle, of realising it's the first time they're balancing without assitance.

Watching that happen is to see one's own past joy in the discovery bask in the sun of opportunity once more. There was a time when someone noticed me looking for the baton and handed it to me. But that is the job only half done. It is not fulfilled until passed on. And having someone take it from you and see them run and know they will continue to run when you slow down and can run no more... that indeed is fulfilment; both utalitarian and personal.

[KT]

There are several opinions on what the meaning of gesture drawing is. What they all have in common is that you look at something and draw it. Some artist, like Mentler, don't use the word. You should follow his example, and translate the word everytime you see it. You can figure out a person's level of understanding based on their use of logical statement structure and by looking at their drawings. In art it takes one to know one, most good advice goes over the average scribbler's head, therefore popular-opinion is not worth very much because common people talk about common things. "Gesture" can usually be translated to: body-language, layout, or warmup execise...

One of the reasons I, like many others here, take the trouble to post answers to questions is because there is so much information proffered by people simply not qualified to give it, which results in plenty of mis-information.

All the good stuff on this site is generally given by guys with anything over 15 years of experience, and on top of that the analytical powers to break their knowledge down and transmute it to word structures that can communicate what is in essence a visual language.

Often these bedrock principles are taken to be tips... and that annoys the hell out of me.
But occasionally something causes a light to go on in a youngster's brain because of something you have said - and that is one of the most satisfying things I know.
Their joy in this moment is like the epiphany, when learning to ride a bicycle, of realising it's the first time they're balancing without assitance.

Watching that happen is to see one's own past joy in the discovery bask in the sun of opportunity once more. There was a time when someone noticed me looking for the baton and handed it to me. But that is the job only half done. It is not fulfilled until passed on. And having someone take it from you and see them run and know they will continue to run when you slow down and can run no more... that indeed is fulfilment; both utalitarian and personal.

I think I agree with this. Even though I know most people have good intentions it sometimes damages people. So I'm wondering should people only try to critique and give information on things they now about or have studied deeply? I try to make my critiques about what I know but sometimes it feels as if I shouldn't give critiques at all because of my lack of experience.

[Chris Bennett]

I think I agree with this. Even though I know most people have good intentions it sometimes damages people. So I'm wondering should people only try to critique and give information on things they now about or have studied deeply? I try to make my critiques about what I know but sometimes it feels as if I shouldn't give critiques at all because of my lack of experience.

Armando has answered this very well and I'll only add a footnote:

Feedback is one thing, advice is another.
One of the valuable things about feedback from inexperienced people (or, for that matter, people who don't know anything about image making at all) is their innocence in the matter.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with an inexperienced artist saying to an experienced one - "something about that sword just feels wrong", or "It seems a bit murky to me" or "That horse's head jumps out at me and is very distracting to what I think the point of the picture is". This is giving valuable feedback to how the image is communicating.

The problem only comes when the inexperienced give advice to the even less experienced about technical matters.

[Immortal Cintiq]

I think you should read walt stanchfields book. That guy is THE master of gesture.

Its really hard to sum it up and that book has hundreds of pages on the topic.

[armando]

If someone's going to be wrong then they should be wrong in novel ways, that shows that they're doing original thinking because they're making original errors. Also if you're going to be wrong be definitely wrong. A definitely true idea is bulletproof, but a hazy indefinite idea is also bulletproof because it can't be attacked by solid reasoning because nothing is really there. You can't shoot a mist, you know what I mean? If the idea is definitely wrong then it can be shattered by a logical offense or by gaining more experience.

[Alice Herring]

If someone's going to be wrong then they should be wrong in novel ways, that shows that they're doing original thinking because they're making original errors. Also if you're going to be wrong be definitely wrong. A definitely true idea is bulletproof, but a hazy indefinite idea is also bulletproof because it can't be attacked by solid reasoning because nothing is really there. You can't shoot a mist, you know what I mean? If the idea is definitely wrong then it can be shattered by a logical offense or by gaining more experience.

An interesting idea, but people offering advice don't usually start out trying to be wrong. (And someone with less experience doesn't have the ability to judge whether or not the advice is sound.)

Hmmm. might make a case for intentionally making wrong choices in a painting, just to see what happens.

[armando]

This is the art discussion forum, and the first criterion I hold anyone to is that they are doing thinking. People always mess up when they do thinking, it always goes from more error to less error. So a beginner can protect themself at first by only considering people with a minimum number of years of experience and a certain level of accomplishment in their artwork, but after a while they have to start thinking for themselves and start reasoning and testing the validity of different assertions. People max out at different levels, not everyone becomes a master. Advice from master artists is notoriously hard to interpret, "Drawing is the probity of art", how many people even know what that means? I don't. It's a statement tied up with his philosophy, which since I'm living in the 21st century is foreign to me. This calls back to the statement "It takes one to know one".
The actual question of this thread is "What did Niccolaides mean?", that's hard for a lot of people to make out because the title is "Confused about gesture drawing." They then reference to a number of different sources, but to talk about "gesture" is to talk about nothing since it's so freely interpreted. There are no threads titled "What is a pose", "What is a drawing of short duration", "What is movement", "What is balance", "What is action", or "What is body language", it's clear then that when someone asks about gesture they aren't asking about these other things. Isn't it likely then that gesture is just a cloudy idea? It's a little of this and a little of that and yet none of them. Could this be why there never is a definitive answer. There is only an answer once you stick in a qualifier, it's not just gesture but Niccolaides-gesture, Villpu-gesture, or Mentler-gesture, they're all different and it's pointless to refer to one when the question is about the other. My advice, supermonchi, is to read through the book first before starting any exercises, then you can determine if you want to continue with it or not.

[Bowlin]

Isn't it likely then that gesture is just a cloudy idea? It's a little of this and a little of that and yet none of them. Could this be why there never is a definitive answer. There is only an answer once you stick in a qualifier, it's not just gesture but Niccolaides-gesture, Villpu-gesture, or Mentler-gesture, they're all different and it's pointless to refer to one when the question is about the other.

Not to get off the subject, but that does seem to be the problem with using words when describing learning how to draw and describing methods. For example "copy" always comes across as a negative word. It's very vague what you mean when you use the word "copy". No matter how you use it in the forums, it just sounds wrong to people. Does it make sense to say, "indirectly copy"?

[armando]

Not to get off the subject, but that does seem to be the problem with using words when describing learning how to draw and describing methods. For example "copy" always comes across as a negative word. It's very vague what you mean when you use the word "copy". No matter how you use it in the forums, it just sounds wrong to people. Does it make sense to say, "indirectly copy"?

My interpretation of gesture is: Everything you see is an interpretation of the light bouncing off of things and entering your eyes. When you look at something like a horse what takes place in your brain is the exact same thing that happens when you look at a cloud that reminds you of a horse. It's always an interpretation by the imagination, I think of the imagination as the process that forms the meaningful things in our life. Yet the imagination doesn't just make up anything it wants, it follows rules, it has to correctly interpret the signs of the world otherwise we will die.
What we search for when we do gesture drawings are the signs that speak to the imagination. Therefore all drawing is gesture drawing. All drawings deal with action, action is drama, and drama is what it is like to be alive in some situation. I believe that action can only happen when there is a thinking being there to observe it, without a thinker action is only chaos. The most basic action we observe when making a drawing is "I'm looking at the thing". The scribble action is a response to the thing, that becomes the sign for "I'm looking at the thing".
All that we see is just so many signs. I believe these signs are the "alphabet of nature" because when you find one and learn it's meaning it's like a word you can use in a drawing, and no matter what thing you are trying to represent, for example a horse, the sign will always cause the same effect. In other words, when you know the sign you can transfer it's effect to anything. To me drawing is just the language of our visual art, the words we use to compose pictures.
Tomorrow I'll show an example of the "stretch" sign because it's one of the easiest to see and use, and I'll show you how to test it in the real world.

[supermonchi]

Wow thanks everyone for the comprehensive and exhaustive replies! After reading what everyone has to say and how you guys answer my questions I think I understand what gesture drawing is about.

Basically what I already had in mind but wasn't quite sure and the more I did them the more I got confused, but I think I understand the point of it. And I agree, it is a great exercise for both speed and the ability to capture what's important without getting lost in the details, which is a common trap for me actually.

Thanks also for the various tips and references for further studies. I will look them up and keep learning and keep practising.

[nickmarshallvfx]

I just wanted to add that in your original post you asked whether gesture drawing should be about speed or accuracy, but in my experience those things shouldnt be mutually exclusive. The best gesture drawings are the ones that are accurate but use the least linework possible to describethe pose and the movement. They capture the essence only of what is most important about a pose, although this is of course something that is down to the artist to decide.

Just my humble opinion, hope it helps Good luck!