Team Chow III - Nameless Operatives

**Ephelea** · December 27th, 2009, 03:07 AM

Starting the madness.
I chose the : Empress, and Princess of Swords

So far, I'm looking for reference and inspiration.

**Ephelea** · December 27th, 2009, 11:06 AM

So for the empress, I at first had the idea of a very Josephine like Empress, with the crown of stars. While I want to keep the crown of stars, I'm not sure I want such a structured woman.

I gathered a large collection of 'Empresses' and decided to look at their traits. They all look extremely regal, strong facial features.

Curly, any ideas on what type of theme you'd like to work together for?

**Tagtraum** · December 27th, 2009, 11:35 AM

Hi there!
I already wrote you a PM, Ephelea, but since I can't find it in my folder (sorry^^'' I'm new to the forum) I thought you might have not got it ... well, if you did ... I don't want to appear pushy or anything.
Anyway, I wanted to ask if I can join your group. I'm learning quickly (I think), but I only have some basic skills. It would be great if you admitted me

Greetings^^

**Tagtraum** · December 27th, 2009, 12:35 PM

I really like the third picture on top. I think it's Empress Sisi - she has much softer features than on the other paintings, makes her look kinda vulnerable and not really like a strong empress.

As for me, I'd like to take the magician and the princess of wands.

Edit: I have to go now, so maybe you can enter them all, before somebody else takes them? That would be nice ...

**Ephelea** · December 27th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Tag,

In regards to your request - the "Princess of Wands" has already been slotted, I think, until they get more people on the different lower arcana. First come, first served. The pickings are getting slim, the longer people wait. I'll ask, but I can't guarantee Dae won't ask you to choose another.

Curly,

Pick soon please.

I don't want you to get stuck with something you don't want to do.

**curly** · December 28th, 2009, 02:46 AM

I'd like to take the Fool and Two of Wands

**curly** · December 28th, 2009, 02:52 AM

Tagtraum, welcome to the team!

I'll try to make a banner for us today. Can you give me something to start with - maybe your photos or some image that represent you. Our team name wakes in me strong associations with secret agents or ninjas, stuff like this

Can do something funny

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 04:46 AM

Ephelea,
Thanks a lot! I've really been in a hurry yesterday ... Well, I guess I'll wait what happens. Aren't there 4 slots for each card? There are actually so many interesting ones that it wouldn't bother me much to take another one.

curly,
hi! Well ... agents are a good idea, like it. I'm doing martial arts, if that helps in any way. Sadly my parents don't allow me to put photos of myself in the internet

Other images ... I'll think about it.
But wouldn't one agent / ninja dressed in black be enough for the banner? (btw, ninjas actually used to be dressed in dark grey, because it hides better in the shadows or something, at least that's what my ninjutsu teacher said)

**Ephelea** · December 28th, 2009, 02:21 PM

So, what do you two have in mind? We have to find something to tie all our cards together: themes or colors/theme..

I was thinking, and I came up with a few ideas:
Native American themed cards,
Indian (as in, India) themed cards,
or perhaps Mafia/Gang related themed cards.

Any ideas, or dislikes?

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 04:35 PM

Mhh, the problem with Indian or Native American themed cards is that we can't use all those pretty dresses for the princesses and the empress^^
By the way, curly needs another card, because the Fool is not available anymore

We have so far:
- the Magician
- the Empress
- the Princess of Swords
- the Two of Wands
- the Princess of Wands

Hmm ... I always thought it would be cool to do something that's based on Russian stuff, if that's also interesting for you. Could search for some pictures of what I mean, if you want.

The princesses should bear resemblance to each other. I looked them up on one of the links that were given:

Page of Wands
This is a kid that never stays still, runs all over the place, always wants to go outside and play, is always getting into strange places, climbing trees, wanting to go on trips. He's never home for dinner on time. Personality wise, however, he is usually a delightful child, happy, fun-loving, charismatic. He loves being the center of attention and the leader; however, and you might have to watch that he doesn't bully other kids.

Page of Swords
You can't shut up this kid. "Why? Why? Why?" he/she's always asking. And even more alarming, anything they hear, they'll repeat, just blurt it out in front of people. They'll go up to Aunt Hazel and say, "Are you carrying a baby? Mommy says it looks like you are...." On the positive side, this kid could be quite a brain, good at puzzles, quick to learn. And they already know how to use the computer better than you do. Likeable, but also the most aggravating of kids because whatever you tell them to do, they'll argue about it. You have to watch that they don't become "know-it-alls" or tattletales.

Maybe they should look like sisters or something.

What kind of style should we use? 2D or something realistic?
Ah, and here are a few pictures of princesses I found:

**Ephelea** · December 28th, 2009, 04:45 PM

The cards deal with different elements, the "Swords" is "Air/Thought"
A russian theme is interesting. However, which era? Around the time of "Tsar/Czar Nicholas II" and his ill fated family? earlier?

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ephelea

The cards deal with different elements, the "Swords" is "Air/Thought"
A russian theme is interesting. However, which era? Around the time of "Tsar/Czar Nicholas II" and his ill fated family? earlier?

Well ... I thought the princesses could have some similarities, so that it's clear they somewhat belong together. The same clothing style, but different colors, the same landscape, but a different season ... something along those lines.

Actually I haven't thought about the time frame yet. I think Nicholas II might be a bit late, that's already within the Industrialisation. I don't know it for sure, but I think the stuff they wore there is mostly traditional anyway. I'll look it up (on wikipedia

) ...

Edit: so here are some inspirations. I think the time around Catherine the Great may be good, 17th century.
Here's a page with Russian clothing: http://www.rusclothing.com

**Ephelea** · December 28th, 2009, 06:10 PM

I'm not extremely fond of Catherine, only because she tends to often be shown as an elder empress, and less of her younger self. I want to be able to give the impression that the Empress, while strong - is still youthful enough to give life.

I propose, 1800-1900's - Maria Feodorovna was the Queen/Empress. Mother of Nicholas II.

And while, the dresses are lovely, do Russian Princesses wear them?

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 06:22 PM

Wow, that's a beautiful picture

Well, you don't have to make the empress look like Catherine, just because we set the time frame during her reign^^ A century later is also fine - I don't think the clothing changed that much, at least not ceremony clothing or dresses of princesses.

I read somewhere that Russia around that time was strongly influenced by Germany, so the nobility wore nearly the same stuff as their European equivalents, maybe with some touch of those folk dresses I posted above.
The latter ones were worn until Peter the Great or around 1900 on masked balls.

Edit: (somehow I edit nearly every post Ô_o) Well, that is except for those kokoshniks, a head-dress worn by woman and girls. The woman above and Catherine the Great both wear it.

**Ephelea** · December 28th, 2009, 06:30 PM

Germany's influence is mainly because of the close relationship the nobility had. It's noted that until Maria, most consorts of the Kings/Emperors of Russia came from Germany and it's surrounding area.

And no, you are correct. She doesn't have to look the same. But I also just like Maria's crowns more.

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ephelea

Germany's influence is mainly because of the close relationship the nobility had. It's noted that until Maria, most consorts of the Kings/Emperors of Russia came from Germany and it's surrounding area.

And no, you are correct. She doesn't have to look the same. But I also just like Maria's crowns more.

Mh, but I think close relationships among the nobility are strongly influencing the fashion, aren't they?
Anyway, doesn't really matter. There was some nice movie on TV last year about War and Peace ... that's around 1800, so the dresses they wear there (or in other movies about that book) might be a good reference.

**Ephelea** · December 28th, 2009, 06:49 PM

I'll keep googling.
Hopefully, Curly logs on and checks this out soon >_>..so she can input her say.

**Tagtraum** · December 28th, 2009, 07:00 PM

Okay. It's already 1 AM here so I don't know how long I can stay awake ... Will search for some other stuff, though.
For the magician I could imagine something like the evil Koshchei or, something more friendly, Father Frost.

**Ephelea** · December 29th, 2009, 04:08 PM

So, I was reading! And Queens/Empresses got to wear gold gowns or silver gowns/embroidered or gowns made with gold/silver material, however Grand Duchesses/Princesses got to wear Silver, but only if the Queen wasn't or she was wearing gold.

Also, I suppose the Princesses could be wearing the the "kaftan" type dresses, but I'm more than sure that they'd be well made and hand embroidered. And probably also have jewels

But still no pictures to say that they did (wish they did less revolutionizing and more cataloging in Russia.

) I also watched Anastasia, because I'm rather fond of the movie. >_>.. But apparently, it's far fetched. And, women who were unmarried also apparently covered their shoulders, while married women didn't.

Btw: Did you consider that the Magician could be Rasputin if we went with Nicholas II And the "Princesses" could be two of his four daughters? Just another idea. Since we have yet to get anything concrete.

Curly, any comments, thoughts, ideas?

**Tagtraum** · December 30th, 2009, 04:26 PM

That's really interesting ... May I ask where you did your research?
You're right about the kaftan ... I just found this explanation about the court dresses:

The first change to this new dress happened in the 1840s, when the velvet overdress (sarafan) and silk under dress (caftan) were adapted to fit contemporary corseted fashions. The costume became three separate pieces, rather than two; an embroidered white silk underskirt, over which was placed a waist-hung train, and a corseted bodice which incorporated the long muscovite sleeves and an embroidered white silk "corsage." The illusion of the assembled tripartite gown was similar in effect to that of a robe worn over an under dress.

Also required to be worn was the Kokoshnik, a diadem-like headdress. For women of the Imperial family these were originally jewel-studded velvet, with pearl-trimmed plain velvet for their attendants. Long, floor-length tulle veils were worn by married ladies.

http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/ctcostume.html

Yeah ... I also thought of Rasputin for the magician, but to be honest I feel a bit uncomfortable with the idea of using Tsar Nicholas' family for the cards, I don't exactly know why.

**Ephelea** · December 31st, 2009, 01:00 AM

Different sites, one was a musuem tour through "Alexander's Palace" or something similar - one was an entire site of links about clothing and I focused on imperial/royal clothing, mainly just googled and read.

**curly** · December 31st, 2009, 06:37 AM

Hi guys! Sorry for beeing late - this New Year rush caught me hard

I've took knight of wands too.
I'm strongly against to wear them all at clothes from some period or country,though I really like the references you found. I've entered the contest because I wanted to develop more of my own style. And do not forget the mistical point of the tarot - simply standing princess is not good,you have to search for inner simbolism of the card, like what things she should posses,what she represents. I suggest to go with a designing a frame for every card. About the world I'd rather prefer something dark and mistical, with some artefacts and weird effects. Which can also suit our team name. I've got to make a tort for New Year Party. I'll try to be more involved - the party is taking most of the efforts now

Happy New Year

**Ephelea** · December 31st, 2009, 03:53 PM

Curly,
While i agree that the cards should hold a 'mystical' portion, or symbolism - it doesn't make it impossible by choosing a theme. I planned on adding a pomegranate, swans, wheat fields..etc. All parts of symbolism. And while the "Russian" part may seem imposing, it also doesn't cut out the ability to portray your own style. We need to be able to point out why our cards work together in a pack. They have to have something that makes them work together.

So, if we scrapped the "Russian" theme - what would we do to make our cards work together? We're cutting it close to the 'deadline' so the speak and we need to get our ideas in the right place.

**Tagtraum** · January 1st, 2010, 09:52 AM

I agree with Ephelea ... And we don't have to stick to the Russian theme *that* close anyway, just enough to make it noticeable.
By the way, I'm not sure about the symbolism. On wikipedia it says that the cards were originally not mystical, so I guess there was no symbolism either. Which makes me think that it is not necessary for the set, but optional.
(Not saying I'm against it, just mentioning)
The knight and the magician can be drawn rather freely anyway. Uhm ... an idea that just came to me (maybe you like it, that's up to you):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks
Maybe that would be a start for the knight, if you agree with the Russian theme. I think your own style doesn't depend on what you draw, but how

**Ephelea** · January 1st, 2010, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Tagtraum

I agree with Ephelea ... And we don't have to stick to the Russian theme *that* close anyway, just enough to make it noticeable.
By the way, I'm not sure about the symbolism. On wikipedia it says that the cards were originally not mystical, so I guess there was no symbolism either. Which makes me think that it is not necessary for the set, but optional.
(Not saying I'm against it, just mentioning)
The knight and the magician can be drawn rather freely anyway. Uhm ... an idea that just came to me (maybe you like it, that's up to you):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossacks
Maybe that would be a start for the knight, if you agree with the Russian theme. I think your own style doesn't depend on what you draw, but how

You do realize if you cut out the symbolism, you simply have a person standing there? I wouldn't take Wiki without having looked at other sources as well.
And, regardless of what the cards were once - how do you look at a tarot card, if not for symbolism and mysticism? They may not be 'magical' per say, but people hold a lot of feeling towards what the cards may mean - what the symbolism of a dress of pomegranates and a field of wheat, a crown of stars may mean, and just like the Bible (which to some people is simply a book,) holds symbolism, and in a way 'religious mysticism.' If you take out these pieces, the symbolism, you'll cut yourself short in the character concept areas.

**Tagtraum** · January 1st, 2010, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ephelea

You do realize if you cut out the symbolism, you simply have a person standing there? I wouldn't take Wiki without having looked at other sources as well.
And, regardless of what the cards were once - how do you look at a tarot card, if not for symbolism and mysticism? They may not be 'magical' per say, but people hold a lot of feeling towards what the cards may mean - what the symbolism of a dress of pomegranates and a field of wheat, a crown of stars may mean, and just like the Bible (which to some people is simply a book,) holds symbolism, and in a way 'religious mysticism.' If you take out these pieces, the symbolism, you'll cut yourself short in the character concept areas.

Well, I did look it up on other pages, with the same result: They were playing cards from France, nothing more, until Antoine Court de Gébelin saw them in Paris, believing they were from Egypt origin and contained a deeper symbolism that encoded ancient wisdom.
As I understood it, the cards already contained those attributes like pomegranates and stuff, but they were not meant as symbols / with a deeper meaning, the cards were just designed that way. We can add them, of course, but I wouldn't stick too close to them, because at least some ones are very limiting.

As for only having a person standing there if we cut out the symbolism ... Well, normal playing cards don't have those symbols either and if you look for different tarot sets there are also some that don't include them.

By the way, the frame we should use for the cards is rather strange, don't you think?

**curly** · January 1st, 2010, 12:45 PM

Hi,guys! I can agree with you that we should find something in common for all the cards. But I don't like the russian direction,sorry. Being russian makes me feel a strong associations with all this stuff. In last years Russia and Ukraine and all that countries that once were USSR started digging again for their historic part, and started to force it on people in kinda violent way. And I feel pretty much disgusted by their policy and can't look on these things in objective way.
You picked here women stuff,but do you realize how russian "knight" will look.
Something like this

No way! I would rather go paint Tom and Jerry.
Probably you wouldn't understand my feelings but I'd rather go with england of 15/16 century. Or celtics or france - something interesting and standing out.
Thought choosing country still seems not that necessary to me. We can choose world of our own and describe it,including it's style - why can't we go this way.
We can go steampunk, fantasy, goth and horror or maybe our imagination can bring us to another place?
Btw - what the size of the cards? Or it's up to us?
Here - my not very successful banner for the team >_<

**Tagtraum** · January 1st, 2010, 01:19 PM

Mhh ... when you feel uncomfortable with it, we chose something else, of course.
(Regarding the knight - as I posted before, you could make him look more like a cossack, theoretically)

The size of the card should be 9cm x 15,5cm, I think it's in the thread where you can chose the cards. It's quite slender / high ... looks a bit strange to me, but maybe the want to add a card frame by themselves since the best ones will make it into a CA tarot deck.

Personally I think Russian is far more outstanding than something Celtic or French, because that's just been there too often, but if you're Russian you sense that quite differently.

A fantasy world ... well, maybe. On the one hand I'd be fine with it, since we could still draw those dresses, but how would we make them belong together then?

I really like the banner, by the way.

**curly** · January 1st, 2010, 02:23 PM

I was forced to learn everything about those kosaks from the first Getman to the last,and I know that teachers twisted history and we never learnt about other countries. It's ridiculous. I can't stand the look of them - sorry guys.That's our difference in approach to the Russian - for me there were not other countries than Ukraine or Russia. And for you it is something exotic.
I was at another competition recently and there was very interesting idea. Every team was given a world legend - very simple (like our world was at the edge of total distraction and it's inhabitants were forced to live in the sky, and they had flying fishes) - this can give you a lot of freedom ,but we can narrow it even more - like people of some bird clan. Everybody's wearing feathers or birdslike helmets,you know. Or dresses with feathers. Or we can make them all cards of phoenix, or cards of a blackthorn (like thorns or flowers everywhere). You will add there russian wearing if you'd like and I'll go with my own ideas. What you think?
And thanx about the banner. ^_^ I've tried hard but it still lacks some meat. Gotto work more.

**Tagtraum** · January 1st, 2010, 02:46 PM

Ohh :/ I'm sorry about that ... sounds horrible.

The idea is interesting. What would we take, then? I'm not sure whether living in the sky would work, since the cards are quite small and that seems like a task with much landscape in it to me. The bird-thing seem interesting. There are many different things you could do with that approach: the helmet for the knight, some feathers on the dresses and maybe a big bird skull on the magician's head and a feather coat.

I don't think the banner must be perfect, since we will vote solely for the cards (or won't we?)