No hope...

**gandalf** · January 27th, 2004, 01:16 PM

i'm seventeen and want to be able to draw, but i feel like it's a talent you're born with. If it's possible to "learn to draw" i feel that i'm too late considering my age.

I have no concept of how a person can go from stick figure, to (hypothetically) Todd McFarlan's level of talent!

Can anyone argue FOR the powers of LEARNING art?

:cool:

**WildSpruceMoose** · January 27th, 2004, 03:12 PM

Talent does not exist. It is all about how hard one is willing to work to achieve a certain level. Put in the hours, and hours, and hours and you can do anything. Some people, it is true are born with a particularily adept visual accuity, however the same skills can be learned from simply drawing over and over again.

To sum it all up. There is hope, pick up a pencil and start drawing! Maybe a professional should stop by and it would be a bit more believable for you? But believe you me, it is the truth.

**vfxart** · January 27th, 2004, 03:21 PM

gandalf
When in doubt, read WSM's post again. It is undeniably the truth. A lot of times we talk about talent, but is is an often misunderstod word used for the wrong reasons.

I have found this definiton to be helpful to many new artists:

Talent is your desire coupled with your honest hard work. Desire alone and hard work alone will not feed a talent, or help 'create' one. You need to marry your drive and your passions... this will make you 'talented'.

It is the same as style... style is simply your interests, passions, etc. married with your personality. You already have a style and will for life, and more often than not, as you are yet 17, it will change. Rightly so.

Grab pencils, grab paper, draw, have fun. We can make suggestions as to where to look for info and inspiration, but really, start by looking at the world. Observation is the key. Don't just draw what you think something looks like, go out and find that thing! Then draw it from life (yes, this is also possible with fantastic things... they exist, you just have to know where and how to look)

Good luck, keep us informed.

**gandalf** · January 27th, 2004, 03:25 PM

thanks guys for your time... it really did change my mind.

i've got the free time, i just need guidance.

(which i suppose i can find online)

**dfacto** · January 27th, 2004, 05:15 PM

gandalf: unless you are really art chllenged like some people are or you have trouble comprehending 3d space, then you should have no problems learning to draw as long as you apply yourself.

wildsprucemoose: wrong, it is not always about just working hard. There are people who have no talent at all for art. Just like some can easily comprehend 3d space, color, shape and other things important to art, through natural talent, there are others who are challenged in these areas and they can not draw well even if they practiced their whole lives. This is a minority of course, but its not as simple as just drawing a lot. Talent or lack there of is a factor.

**WildSpruceMoose** · January 27th, 2004, 05:39 PM

dfacto:
The only people who are "art challenged" as you say, are people who simply never try nor care to try art. Almost 95% of the population, if they had passion for painting and drawing, could do it with some efficiency. I'm sure there are rare cases where someone simply cannot create visually, however to even seek a place such as ca.org like gandalf has can tell us that he isn't one of who you speak. I understand what you are trying to say, however artistic skills are 5% natural ability and 95% hard work at honing those skills.

P.S. 80% of statistics are thought up on the spot =)

**catterpillar** · January 27th, 2004, 05:44 PM

lets take a look at one of the most apparently 'talented' people on this forum for their age, lung bug. he's good simply because he draws for 12 hours straight whenever he can! that's dedication! it is about 90% practice.

**Alex K.** · January 27th, 2004, 06:09 PM

I completely agree with the above posts. Also, if you need a book to get you started, look for "Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards.

**AnarchyAo2** · January 27th, 2004, 06:48 PM

I think that talent exists. It gives you the ability to learn faster, but without the will to learn talent doesn't do much.

I think that every artist needs some talent. Its also fairly rare to find hidden talent, but it is possible. It is also certainly worth the effort to see if you have it. This may sound kind stupid, but I think you may have some talent because you want to develop your artist skills.

If your worried about your starting a little too late. I wouldn't be too terribly worried. Most people don't start to develop their skills very much until their teens. I didn't atleast, and some other people I know.

Basically I think that you should go for it. If you don't make a career out of drawing, then it will make a great hobby (sp?).

**jester** · January 27th, 2004, 06:54 PM

I second what AnarchyAo2 says, but also WSM is right. Trust me, it means practice, practice, practise. It's hard work and a long road to go - but IMO the best way to entertain yourself when being on your own. It's fun!

Let me guide you to the Middle Class Sub-Forum: There you'll get lots of instructions and starting points as well as crits which you'll need.

Jester

**mtw** · January 27th, 2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Alex K.
Also, if you need a book to get you started, look for "Drawing on the right side of the brain" by Betty Edwards.

Repeated for emphasis.

**PeggyChung** · January 27th, 2004, 07:59 PM

Hey Gandalf, of course you can learn to draw, thats what we are all doing and of course it is never too late. just take a look in the sketchbook section, you can see the improvement from everyone. btw middleclass will be a great guidance (i should really join them, maybe on friday), and also books. btw check out loomis' online book here : http://www.fineart.sk/index.php?cat=0

**Alex K.** · January 27th, 2004, 11:32 PM

Oh, and I forgot to add. You can definetely find some resources to help you online. Sumaleth link archive is probably the only site you'd need to visit (except Conceptart.org, of course), but it's down right now [thank goodness for archive.org].

I really shouldn't speak on the subject, as I'm pretty much in your position and just starting out, but I think that drawing from life is probably the best way to practice. Just grab a copy of "Drawing on the right side of the brain" in your local library, draw every day, and visit conceptart.org for advise and critique. (Joining the Middle Class would probably prove useful if you're willing to practice consistently).

**foster** · January 28th, 2004, 12:06 AM

some things come easier for certain people. is this talent? not sure. but i do know that it did not come easy for me.

when you like something you want to keep doing it. when you practice you learn and acquire new skills. it is not just motor skills but a certain perspectives on your life, where art fits, what you like about certain pieces of art and what you don't like. with years comes experience and maturity. with these come the abilities you have been honing. study, practice go way beyond todd mcfarlan and learn from the history of art. you will sift through all of this and reinterpret it in your own way.

there is always someone better. that is not the point. what you need to focus on is making art you like and getting better than you were the day before.

i feel that i am a late bloomer in maturity and in art. seventeen seems very young to me. at that age i could not see past my hormones or the worries i had about what others thought of me. i wish i was more with it at the time but i am happy that i grew up eventually.

jon

**gandalf** · January 28th, 2004, 08:05 PM

just updating,

i picked up that "right side of the brain" book by betty edwards. I've also been noticing tiny improvements.

gandalf- more hopeful :chug:

**Red_Rook** · January 29th, 2004, 11:46 AM

50% of this game is 90% mental, you just have to give it 110%...

and other statistics.

But to be honest, talent = effort, it changes from person to person but It can be learnt. Comes easier to some then others. Just be willing to learn take critique and use it productivly. Art classes are good.

**ClocktowerArtworks** · January 29th, 2004, 11:52 AM

half this game is 90% mental...um...would that make the entire game 45% mental? i'm confused..

anyway...i believe there is some truth in most of whats been said before. but i think the defining factor is how much you enjoy drawing...because if it is not something you have passion for and enjoy doing immensely, then you will have an extremely difficult time putting in all the hours of practice.

**JoshuaTheJames** · January 29th, 2004, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by WildSpruceMoose
Talent does not exist.

Wow,

:

lease read this all in the most soft spoke voice so that no one gets unnecessarily offended::

I don't understand how you can believe that talent does not exist.

Some of you are trying to redefine what the word "Talent" means. Please look it up.

Talent is something very real. If you take two people equally motivated, gave them the best training they can get and watched their progress.. You will see the less talented person always fall a bit shy, because the other talented person was simply born with that certain ability.

It's an extremely simple truth. I don't know why people are so afraid of it. Not everyone is born equal, just different. And sometimes it sucks.

Anyhoo...

gandalf,

My high school art teacher was such an amazing teacher. He could help improve damn near ANYone who was willing. So there is hope. Make sure you study the fundamentals very, very hard. The A,B,C's are soo damn important in the beginning. Still life drawing/Painting, Figure drawing/painting and an absurd amount of sketchbook drawing!!! Don't go anywhere without your sketchbook!

Good luck.

-Joshua

**JoshuaTheJames** · January 29th, 2004, 01:10 PM

I think a great thing to keep in mind is...

All of the great masters had "ART" in substitute for every little thing like the GameCube, PS2, Internet, ect. ect. ect. It's very easy to limit your time with distractions when you are very motivated with your art. Art was pretty much everything to them...No wonder they were soo amazing.

Raphael and his pupils could do something like this because they were damn near utterly immersed in their work.

-Joshua

**Red_Rook** · January 29th, 2004, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by ClocktowerArtworks
half this game is 90% mental...um...would that make the entire game 45% mental? i'm confused..

anyway...i believe there is some truth in most of whats been said before. but i think the defining factor is how much you enjoy drawing...because if it is not something you have passion for and enjoy doing immensely, then you will have an extremely difficult time putting in all the hours of practice.

Heh, its a quote acctually from some quaterback gone football analyst.

Typical sports jargon "Ill give it 110% coach!" Im thinkin NO....

**ShawnYe** · January 29th, 2004, 02:04 PM

Also heres some inspiring quotes,

"Nothing in the world can take place of persistence.
Talent will not: for the world is full of talented, unsuccessful people.
Genius will not: for unrewarded genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not: for the world is full of educated derelicts.

PERSISTANCE and DEDICATION alone are omnipotent"

gandalf, I believe its never too late to start. I'm probably in the same shoes as you. Heres my work back in 99 and 2000 when I was sixteen, seventeen, pic pic2. Believe me these are some of my best efforts. I'm trying very hard to make up for it. I've only taken art seriously for the past year or two. I hope you put in the hardwork and keep practicing, you will only get better.

shawn

**gandalf** · January 29th, 2004, 02:10 PM

eureka!

thank you all.

**Blackhawk** · January 29th, 2004, 02:29 PM

I started art seriously when I was 20, before then I kind of drifted between choices until I finally found the one that was there all along, yet I never bothered to pursue it. Honestly, IT IS NEVER TOO LATE. Look at Mcotie, look at MindCandyMan, those two are great examples of jumping in the game late and then kicking supremo ass. I look up to both of these guys. It only takes a second to turn your life completely around.

**seb** · January 29th, 2004, 02:41 PM

drawing is about learning to see instead of just looking. its pretty much all mental because you are doing something that approximates reality or consciously deviates from it. however this is the way that i do it, i'm sure that there are thousands of paths. i believe that anyone can learn to copy what they see given enough time, its creating something new and familar that requires a lot of thinking. a good piece of advice is to try to consciously think about the decissions you are making and why you make them. drawing is mental

**PeggyChung** · January 29th, 2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by JOSHUATHEJAMES
I think a great thing to keep in mind is...

All of the great masters had "ART" in substitute for every little thing like the GameCube, PS2, Internet, ect. ect. ect. It's very easy to limit your time with distractions when you are very motivated with your art. Art was pretty much everything to them...No wonder they were soo amazing.

-Joshua

wow that is so true, except i do use the internet alot -.- lol but im glad im not addicted to that dreaded DIABLO2 game. eesh i spent 2 summers playing that game and now i regret it. oh well, move on right? plus now, there is so much more time to draw. feels great when you are doing something productive.

**Chris J. Anderson!** · January 29th, 2004, 07:56 PM

Gandalf and Everyone -

I had an experience that proved that talent exists and is the CORE of what makes anyone in any prefession, extremely great at what they do, or mediocre. I think "Human Memory" is what talent is. We artists have the ability to remember shapes, line, value, all sorts of images that we experience in life. I can draw my girlfriends face right now without even looking and for the most part, it will look just like her. But I can't remember professional, highlevel mathematical equations, or spelling to big words, or names to differnet things, easily or not at all. But my father can, my ex-girlfriend can. Many Lawyers have their jobs for a reason, because they can remember giant documents of the law, different cases and what about, people names involved in the crimes they present in court, mathematical numbers to the damages and costs to clients cases, they do all this VERY EASILY. If it were me doing all that I'd forget all kinds of crap left and right. But I remember peoples faces easily, color, line, value, 3d space, it al comes so easy for me and most artists. Look at comedians. I couldn't stand on stage like Chris Rock and make people laugh because I'm not born with the look of his face or the funny sound of his voice. What we do have in common is we can remember a moment in time well, only I present that moment through drawing, painting, schulture, etc, while he presents it with his acting. In the comedian's case, talent is not only memory, but it is also the way you look and sound. I think talent obviously exists and it's definitly not all about hard work because I couldn't do what Chris rock does no matter how hard I tried. I could be a lawyer, a terrible one, because although I like to argue and debate, I can't remember legal document and detailed math, and too many written stuff for anything. I can do math very well, I love it, but I need more time, while others would fly by so fast because their memeory in that area is top notch. I also think you have to enjoy what your doing. Unless you honestly enjoy it, you won't do well. But Still, I enjoyed math a lot, but my memory for math is weak. In high level math, I reached that point where, my memory just couldn't take remembering what each and every little symbol represented within a gigantic equation. Keep in mind that each symbol was a giant equation in itself. I was great at math up till that point, then I saw how those things came very easily to other people in my class, and to professionals, but not to me. But in art, I can look and the way light hits an object, figure that out on the spot, and recreate that and then add more, then redo that but make up my own lighting for something new, it's so easy. If I tried taking one of Einstiens theories, or eeven a simplar theory and trying reletively the same thing, I'd be lost.

So, Gandalf, it IS possible for anyone to learn how to draw, just like it's possible for anyone to learn anything. But Talent, is what will take you to the top if you use your talent wisely and work. Your interested in art, you probably have talent and don't even know it. Your not the first person I heard who's interest in art and believe they aren't talented, but had that talent lurking within the entire time. ALso, I think that everyone has degrees of talent, some have a lot, some have a little, and some don't have any. I say you never know how good you are unless you try and try your best, and never stop unless you are convinced you aren't good, and even then, keep on going till the last drop. I say do it!
:thumbsup:

-Chris

**Skank** · January 29th, 2004, 10:16 PM

awsome post chris!
i totally agree.
ive been drawing since...well since i can remember!! my dad was a preacher, and i had to goto church as a kid, and i spent the entire time drawing...i would draw on pretty much anything! i never took any classes, i taught myself new things, and then one day, it dried up. i couldnt draw ANYTHING the way i "used" to. i put my pencil down for the better part of 6 years. it was always nagging at me in the back of my head, telling me it was going to waste! the only talent i have, going to waste! im not good at math, i cant write particularly well (or spell for that matter

)..so this is all i have goin for me. well, that and being big, i make a good pack mule....
well, i finally picked my pencil back up last year,, and started teaching myself again, MAKING myself draw. learning how to refine what talent i have. i think anyone can do the same. it takes alot of practice to get forms down, to get proportions correct, and also to learn the basics. i never did much of that when i was younger, and i really think it handycapped me in alot of ways, there are many skills im having to teach myself, and its alot harder when youre used to doing something a certain way, and then finding out its the WRONG way.
so take some of these guys advice, LEARN the basics, make it second nature! everything else builds off that knowlege.

good luck to you man! looking forward to seeing some posts from you!

**gandalf** · January 29th, 2004, 11:09 PM

i plan on posting some stuff tomorrow.. sketches of practicing.

none of it is really "acceptable" for me, but it's what i've got!

**Lauren Short** · January 30th, 2004, 03:09 PM

wow....what an insightful thread.... awesome advice...it sure helped me out (i was thinkin the same way gandalf was)

:chug:

**gandalf** · January 30th, 2004, 06:59 PM

i've set up a progress thread just like MindCandyMan's..

he was my inspiration, so i hope i can achieve similar success!

Journey of an absolute rookie: My bold attempt

check it out everyone, need lots of help, support, and especially criticism!