You shouldn't use digital to learn?

[Ivory_Oasis]

I don’t understand why my teachers are so adamant on assignments being done with traditional means. I have tried to keep an open mind, and look for some hidden reason… but I simply can’t think of one.

Using ellipse guides? Using tracing paper? Using rulers? Being forced to shade with a pencil (or later, markers)?

When I asked my figure drawing teacher why we couldn’t use digital for our homework still-life assignment… he said because he “wanted us to really draw it”.

I don’t understand.

I can see how it might be easier to cheat with digital (take a picture and run a few filters over it to make it look painterly)…. But you can cheat with traditional too (just trace over everything on a lightbox).

In the real world, when I get a job (I am aiming at a character concept artist), I wont use a pencil or markers or try to render out a picture with lengthy advanced graphite shading techniques…. I will be using photoshop. Sure, I might make sketches on a pad of paper to get some ideas when at a meeting or on the fly (I can do that now), but when it comes to more serious work I will be running to my wacom and computer so I can really turn out material quickly.

I want to learn how to use photoshop! I want to spend my time doing assignments in the program so I can figure out workflows and tricks to make things move faster (which will actually be helpful for me, so I can apply it to my work!). Spending an hour figuring out a new way to apply graphite to a large section of a piece of paper for even shading will never ever be used by me outside of the demands of my teachers (so, why bother learning it? Why not spend that energy figuring out and becoming comfortable with a new hotkey in photoshop?).

What am I missing? Am I just being a “know it all” and there is actually some type of secret benefit to working traditionally? If so, what is it and why? I just can’t figure it out! I’m trying to keep an open mind on the entire thing as I work to get better… but I want to spend my energy on the most efficient things that will translate into my career and make me a stronger artist.

It is also curious to note that my 2 teachers who demand assignments be done traditionally are the ones who do not work digitally and are very uncomfortable with a tablet and photoshop… one doesn’t even use email, the other has much difficulty just drawing a box freehand. It really doesn’t help their credibility when they try and tell me traditional mediums are better….

[Noah Bradley]

That's a really good question. The standard approach is to start traditional, then move to digital. But then again, there are artists out there who started with digital and are doing just fine.

I'll take a stab at answering though: traditional lets you worry more about the image and less about the medium. There's isn't that much to learning how to move a pencil around, but there's a tremendous amount you can do with just a pencil. Once you can create good imagery with one medium, that knowledge will carry over to other mediums, like digital.

I have a feeling, though, that we start traditionally because that's the way things have always been. I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming decades we see a shift to students starting out digitally.

[Eric Young]

If you don't learn to draw first with a pencil then you'll never be able to paint in photoshop. Learning to pick up a pencil and paper and sketch out something is the fundamental starting point of all artists. Your teacher probably doesn't want you to mess with digital at the moment because in photoshop it's more about painting figures not drawing them. And painting is a whole different genre of problems and solutions then drawing.
You seem to be at the beginning of your art education and your just learning the fundamentals. Most of the time your not learning how to use a pencil but learning how to correctly see the object ( be it a figure of a still life ) and translate what you see on to the paper. Your teachers are probably just trying to teach you that much right now and if they allowed you to mess with digital art then they would be adding tons more complex problems to the simple basics that your trying to figure out now.

[Eric Young]

By the way, you should start posting in your sketchbook, it'll help you greatly start to learn. There are hundreds if not thousands of great artist and student artists on this site every day. If you make a sketchbook we can all help you learn and point out what you may need to work on to become a better artist.

[vineris]

There's a lot to be said for starting with traditional.

A pencil is analog, and at this point it's still more sensitive and responsive than most tablets. Most people are familiar with using one. If you screw up a pencil drawing, you know that the problem is you, not the software or bad settings. Pencils are cheap and easily available, you don't need to set up a lab at the school or buy expensive software to use them. They are easily replaced, unlike power supplies and motherboards and will never eat 50 hours of work due to a virus. They are also much more portable than your average computer. It's easy to take them everywhere and sketch with them, giving beginners much more practice than they would normally get.

Besides, you have no idea what you'll end up using and liking in the end. In a few years, you may get into graphite just so you don't have to be chained to the computer for 16 hours a day. It's all "Digital and I are BFFs!" until the carpal tunnel sets in.

[J Wilson]

It sounds like there is a large amount of either ignorance or bias against digital with those instructors. Most everything you learn in traditional art you can learn with digital, although there will be some tempting shortcuts that you'll have to have some will power to avoid (such abusing the color picker). I'd say the reasoning they are giving are not very compelling, BUT that does not mean that there aren't some compelling reasons. There are.

While I'd say there is nothing wrong with digital, there is still a lot to be gained from doing traditional work as well. If you are looking for a full time position somewhere, having traditional experience is often a "plus". There is also a lot to be said for working in a variety of media, whether digital or traditional. Different media needs different approaches, and you never know where you'll get one of those "aha!" moments. One thing most artists heavily recommend is to get a variety of experiences. Learn from different sources, and you'll avoid artistic ruts and plateaus more easily.

This isn't a "digital is bad, and traditional is good" argument. It's a "variety is good" argument.

[JJacks]

I don't know why you think shading with a pencil will not benefit you at all in the future. The simplest way to learn about light, contrast, textures, edges, proportion, and such is to sit down with a pencil and some paper and try. So I myself don't understand your need to go into Photoshop directly. If you can draw on paper, the transition into digital will be smoother and less time consuming. You will be able to focus on how to use the program to achieve what you want instead of asking yourself "how do I draw and use this program?"

[Elwell]

Teachers can only teach what they know. If they're not familiar/comfortable with digital work, then they won't be able to fully critique it, or help you with any issues you may have with it. Your choice is either play by their rules and get the most that you can out of these classes, or drop them and find teachers that can teach you what you want.

Personally, If the teachers are at all competent at what they can teach, I'd go with option#1.

[Helaine]

Shading with pencil is very beneficial for practicing (at least for me)

I don't think I'd draw trees/people for life drawing practice using laptop and a tablet.....


I definitely don't think that you should MASTER it, but having shading skill with pencil is very handy

[darkwolf29a]

I have done some very strange projects on paper, recently. One reason is that you can't fake being able to draw a circle, elipse, or work with perspective. Digital is good for learning, I won't argue that. But, I have found that anything I have learned via sketchpad and pencil, I can use in Illustrator or Photoshop. The difference, for me, is that I can also go outside and sit on a park bench and draw. That has been very help with my perspective and drawing classes, where they do not just want to see still life images, but landscapes, nature, etc.

I would go with Elwell on this. If you are learning from your teachers...stick with it. If you aren't, you've got a bad teacher and are in need of a different one.

[Pezz]

THis leads me to wonder - are there any concept artists actually doing things traditionally? Or do time constraints limit that?

[Noah Bradley]

THis leads me to wonder - are there any concept artists actually doing things traditionally? Or do time constraints limit that?

Jason Manley said once that graphite drawings are still one of their main mediums for concept art (that and digital). I don't think they do an acrylics/oils for concept art, though. Simply too time consuming, I should think.

[Pezz]

Jason Manley said once that graphite drawings are still one of their main mediums for concept art (that and digital). I don't think they do an acrylics/oils for concept art, though. Simply too time consuming, I should think.

Well I mean for instance, I would think one could create some neat concept designs in conte or pastel on toned paper just as well. However for full color conceptual illustrations, I should think digital would be the way to go now with crazy deadlines

[Eric Young]

Yeah I'm pretty sure they still use some traditional mediums in concept art, on the bonus DVD with star wars episode 2 or 3 i forget, it had a small clip of the art department and the concept artists working on making concepts for the movie. They showed some artists using prismacolor markers to quickly flesh out concepts. So i'm pretty sure it's a mixture of both traditional and digital

[Ivory_Oasis]

traditional lets you worry more about the image and less about the medium. There's isn't that much to learning how to move a pencil around, but there's a tremendous amount you can do with just a pencil.

The medium of pencil is actually a lot more restrictive to me than digital is. In digital, I do a lot of black and white drawings...working up values slowly, kind of like you would a pencil. But, digital works both ways very easily, I can lighten up my values with a little bit of white on a very low flow brush, or i can darken it a tiny tiny amount, or sample the shade right next to it and match the shades perfectly...with pencil, trying to pull off graphite with a kneaded eraser makes spots and shading details is pain and very very slow.

Something as simple as shading a sphere I could do in photoshop in a few seconds...with a pencil, its slow and just a lot of work to simply achieve even shades.

I know I dont know how to use a pencil. I haven't a clue on the "right" pencil hardness i should be using or how to use the kneaded erasers to avoid spots or how to use blending stumps correctly.... I don't really care about knowing the details of the medium though, the assignment is to understand shadows, not understanding how to get the best even shading with graphite (I even hear people use powdered graphite to cover larger areas? its just so much trouble and so messy).

So, for me, digital lets me worry less about the medium. Digital I can just go in and grab a hard round brush...then adjust the softness / flow / size as I go along and that is all I need (don't even use eraser, I just white over it).

Your teacher probably doesn't want you to mess with digital at the moment because in photoshop it's more about painting figures not drawing them.

My teacher said this also. He said you just can't "sketch" in photoshop.

But, I don't understand that. I sketch in photoshop all the time! I set my brush to pressure sensitivity for size, opacity, and flow...then set the flow down to 30ish percent and sketch. Get the same sketchy feeling that I do with a pencil and I can play around just like I do with a pencil.

Sure, you can also increase the size of the brush and start painting, but that is something different (and a lot of times just sketching it out with lines is a lot faster / clearer for getting ideas down). But, again, I can do it digital...why do people think you can't draw in photoshop?

You seem to be at the beginning of your art education and your just learning the fundamentals. Most of the time your not learning how to use a pencil but learning how to correctly see the object ( be it a figure of a still life ) and translate what you see on to the paper.

I have been drawing for almost 2 years now. So, still tonsss to learn, but I have a little fundamentals already from my own efforts (i think). Some of my things are at www.ivoryoasis.com , and it was all digital...from day 1... I actually wouldn't have been so interested in art if I couldn't do it digitally (I have a thing about getting my hands dirty hehe).

Translating what you see is the same digitally or with pencil and paper....you are learning how to see, it doesnt matter if you do that on the back of a dead fish with a knife...

A pencil is analog, and at this point it's still more sensitive and responsive than most tablets. Most people are familiar with using one. If you screw up a pencil drawing, you know that the problem is you, not the software or bad settings. Pencils are cheap and easily available, you don't need to set up a lab at the school or buy expensive software to use them. They are easily replaced, unlike power supplies and motherboards and will never eat 50 hours of work due to a virus. They are also much more portable than your average computer. It's easy to take them everywhere and sketch with them, giving beginners much more practice than they would normally get.

Besides, you have no idea what you'll end up using and liking in the end. In a few years, you may get into graphite just so you don't have to be chained to the computer for 16 hours a day. It's all "Digital and I are BFFs!" until the carpal tunnel sets in.

I feel I have more control and sensitivity with digital. I can set my brush to have the tiniest increase in shading... it's more sensitive to what I want it to do, not its response to my hand. But the important thing is the artistic knowledge a person is getting....even if my hands get cut off or I become older and lose fine control, i still have my understanding of value and color and form and everything else I learnt, that is the important part of an artist...not how lightly they can touch a piece of paper with a pencil.

Yea, digital is more expensive, so for some people it's not really an option to learn on. But that doesn't mean digital is bad or shouldn't be learnt on if the opportunity is there! And, after learning to draw with digital, it translates back into traditional...i can pick up a sketchpad and draw out some concepts or play around fine (not as well as i can work in digital though, and that is the important thing...I WANT my digital to be stronger than my traditional skills, because my digital is what will be making me money and be the primary way I work. Traditional is just a worse case scenario if I find myself without power or a computer nearby). (((and as for losing work to a crash...you can lose weeks and months of work from a flood or spilling your coffee! If you back up your work online and in other hard-drives...it's almost impossible to lose everything unless the world is hit by a huge EMP blast o.O)

I know I will never end up loving graphite, I just can't get over how messy it gets your hands.

While I'd say there is nothing wrong with digital, there is still a lot to be gained from doing traditional work as well. If you are looking for a full time position somewhere, having traditional experience is often a "plus". There is also a lot to be said for working in a variety of media, whether digital or traditional. Different media needs different approaches, and you never know where you'll get one of those "aha!" moments. One thing most artists heavily recommend is to get a variety of experiences. Learn from different sources, and you'll avoid artistic ruts and plateaus more easily.

Well, ideally I would want to master every medium in the world. Oils, acrylic, charcoal, etching.... but, time is an issue! Maybe once I get into my career I will explore painting more and other tpes of materials, but I want to be able to get a job in a year! I don't have time now to spend trying to get a general knowledge of everything, I need to get good at one thing (good enough so I can get paid for it). I have the rest of my life to explore.... but school should be about getting me prepared to go out ready to produce at a good enough quality in one medium.

My sister got a minor in art. She learnt painting, drawing, sculpting, pottery, jewelry making...and you know what? She can't do any of them at a professional level. Sure, she knows a little bit about each of them, but she can't produce anything and would be impossible for her to get a job doing any of them. So, she is going back to school to become a teacher now...

I don't want to end up like that. I want to learn and master one thing (which is why I am so apposed to them saying I NEED to do it in traditional mediums, when I KNOW that I really need to improve digital skills so I can actually find work). I want to struggle through the assignment in digital and find faster workflows for doing the jobs. Figuring out how to make better use of the tools available and do it faster.

I don't know why you think shading with a pencil will not benefit you at all in the future. The simplest way to learn about light, contrast, textures, edges, proportion, and such is to sit down with a pencil and some paper and try. So I myself don't understand your need to go into Photoshop directly. If you can draw on paper, the transition into digital will be smoother and less time consuming. You will be able to focus on how to use the program to achieve what you want instead of asking yourself "how do I draw and use this program?"

Yup, knowledge about light and value and all those other things are all really important. But they don't come from the medium you work in...they come from understanding about what you are doing.

Working in the medium is ALL about understanding how to work in that medium better / faster / more efficiently. If you work in pencil all the time, you will rock at pencil work. If you work in markers all the time, you will develop tricks and understanding of how to work with markers faster and better. If you do it in photoshop, you will get familiar with the toolset there.

Thats the thing, I want to learn how to use the program better (because, well, that is what I will be using when I work). Why not kill 2 birds with one stone? The class is teaching me how to understand different aspects of art (shading, form, whatever), but why not also use it as a chance to become stronger at using my tools?

Why is it important to do it in pencil and paper?

It's like saying "in order to learn how to drive a car, we will teach you on a motorcycle!" . Yup, learning on a motorcycle will teach you a lot about driving. They have a lot of the same parts. But, why not just start learning on a car and skip the motorcycle all together? If the car is what you know you are going to drive.... whats the point in messing with something else? A car and motorcycle are similar in a lot of ways, but they are also different in a lot of ways. Moving over later only forces you to RE-learn a bunch of things you went through already with the medium you weren't interested in.

One reason is that you can't fake being able to draw a circle, elipse, or work with perspective.

Yup, I could understand this if people were running to photoshop with ellipse tools when their teacher wants them to learn to free-hand a circle. But, that isn't doing the assignment....

It gets strange though. My teacher now wants us to use ellipse guides and compases and all kinds of other tools when working traditional. Why? Why not just do it in photoshop? If you are using tools in both cases...why not use the best tool for the job? Instead of messing with a huge set of ellipse guides to try and find the right curve for the job (it was so crazy, he had a folder of many many pages of cut out ellipses that he would use to draw them.... or using french curves, it would be a labored process to try and find the perfect curves to trace around the circle.)

I think you learn the same thing by using SHIFT + click to draw a line in photoshop as you do using a ruler and pencil in traditional...only one is about 10 times faster.

[Pezz]

I'll leave the wall of text to the others - I just want to comment that you need to get harder edges, your digital paintings all look out of focus and blurry.

[Flake]

You've obviously made up your mind, you just want us to agree that digital is best.

[Eric Young]

Why are you in such a rush? Do you only have a few years left to live? Art can't be mastered in only a year. Artists spend their whole lives learning and trying new things. There isn't some professional test out there where a comity of artists judge your portfolio and tell you you're ready to work professionally. You can suck at art, but if your decent enough in one thing and you're in the right place at the right time, someone will give you work. It probably won't be your dream job but money is money.

Looking at your website you have a lot to learn still, not just how to use photoshop. You need to work on your anatomy, you need to learn when to use a hard edge and a soft edge. And you need to learn how to paint and use color theory if you really want to get into digital illustration. Keep working towards your goals, You seem to have the fire and drive to keep pushing yourself until you reach what you want. Just don't be disappointed when you leave art school and you realize you still have lots to learn. Every artist spends there whole life learning, art isn't like law school and once you're done school you're ready to be a lawyer. For artists even after school we still have to keep teacher ourselves new things.

So basically teach yourself what you think you need, and listen to your teachers and try to learn something from their lessons even if you don't think it'll benefit you.

[Ivory_Oasis]

You've obviously made up your mind, you just want us to agree that digital is best.

Don't confuse a strong opinion with a closed mind.

I see the medium as any number of possible things...none really "better" than the others (you can make arguments for them, but it all comes down to what you are most comfortable with). It's like when people say you can't learn color theory with digital...I just don't understand where that comes from (with the use of layers and opacity and all the other tools in photoshop, i would think color theory would actually be easier to play around with and understand in photoshop).

Thats why it bugs me when people say "you can't"...in a lot of areas concerning art. I was told a lot that "you can't" learn to draw just from digital... normally you can ignore that, but when teachers start to do it, it becomes a little more troublesome.

[Arshes Nei]

Thanks for the link to your site.

I think you will benefit from using traditional media even if you think right now it's a pain. Some of the tools you're using you also...well feel how to make the object, which you can't do with photoshop. For example, using a circle stencil, versus using the Elipse/rectangle tool in PS. While both give you the same result, there is a feeling of how the circle should be drawn that actually helps you with coordination better than if you just made circles in PS. So I think one benefit is an increase in accuracy. It's something like training wheels on a bike till your understand how to balance before you ride it.

The other thing is, it's much easier even with laptops these days to go out and sketch from life. Some places a laptop is not appropriate to bring around, while a small sketchbook is easier to tuck away if it becomes inappropriate or harder to draw.

The freedom of movement is an important decision when you need to do research on your works and being able to capture the moment. This would be better than being stuck behind a desk, or screen all day looking at google for images. While helpful, I noticed too much Photo reference can be a hindrance if not balanced with drawing from life. I still believe traditional still has advantages over it.

Right now, your works suffer a lot from looking like references/photos and have a stiffness to them. They're nice but I get the "heavily referenced" feeling from them. Drawing traditionally might help introduce some looseness you may need.

Shouldn't be afraid of learning different things, you never know what you might end up liking that can help push your drawings forward.

[{CKL}]

I think you need to reread Elwell's very short and to the point post.

Learning to use traditional drawing mediums, such as graphite and charcoal, carries directly over to 2-D Digital mediums. I don't quite understand the source of your angst. I would understand if they wanted you to only do it with sculpting materials or something completely out of the 2-D realm. It's all about learning the process of mark making and how that can translate into form.

Don't focus to hard on the tool in your hand. Worry more about what your producing with it.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Why are you in such a rush? Do you only have a few years left to live?

Hehe no no, I just want to do art for a living... it would be a lot more annoying if I had to take a full time non-art related job while still trying to get into the industry. So, I just need to get good enough to get my foot in the door in a year

I'm one of those type that like to know why I'm doing something (so I can make sure I am getting the most from it, or changing it to fit me better).

It's the difference between knowing the science behind weightloss and our bodies...and being only being told to eat a "slim quick" for your meals to lose weight. When my teachers tell me to just eat what they give me, I want to know the why behind it (once I know the why, well, I would rather go get a sandwich or something I would rather eat with the same result).

Like my figure drawing teacher had us go home and draw a sunflower. The reason behind the assignment was to help us see, it had nothing to do with the sunflower. So, I went and got a different kind of flower I liked better and would enjoy drawing more. The WHY was important to me, so I could change it to fit me better...while still getting the full benefit of the lessons.

[TASmith]

Dos Santos, Brom, and Elwell all illustrate with traditional painting mediums (and damn well). Also Larry Elmore. Film/Animation artists also use acrylic a lot for initial planning and then do a final illustration digitally. Check out Nathan Fowkes and Luc Desmarchelier.

[Baron Impossible]

I think learning traditional could be of benefit in your digital work and I wish I'd taken that opportunity (if it can be said ever to have arisen). I also agree with what Elwell said, if your teachers aren't comfortable with teaching and managing a digital workflow then they will of course push traditional. It sounds like they perhaps should be more forthcoming about why they shy away from digital and not simply attempt to belittle the digital method, but still.

However, the myth that you must start with traditional before you move on to digital really needs to be quashed. It's old and tired and entirely without foundation.

[RyerOrdStar]

There's nothing like the feel of a pencil in your hand, energy coursing up your arm and connecting you to the page. I don't get the same feeling when using the ephemeral page in Photoshop.

[Kaileighblue]

If something is off on paper; a limb too small or angled wrong, you'd erase it.
On the computer you could lasso it and adjust it. Not that you or everyone does it, but the temptation is there. Someone could learn to rely on the little tricks of a program rather that rely on themselves.

You seem to have a bit of what I have. The 'I want done it now' issue. I came here to try to work on that because skimping on something and calling it done because I'm bored with it is what's holding me back.

You've really been missing something if you think concept art is only done on the computer. My friend has a pile of game concept books that are all pencil ink, and marker. The Fallout 3 book I have in front of me. The artist's blog.

[Elwell]

Hehe no no, I just want to do art for a living...
<snip>
Like my figure drawing teacher had us go home and draw a sunflower. The reason behind the assignment was to help us see, it had nothing to do with the sunflower. So, I went and got a different kind of flower I liked better and would enjoy drawing more. The WHY was important to me, so I could change it to fit me better...while still getting the full benefit of the lessons.

Part of being a commercial artist is learning how to follow instructions and work to a brief. So if that's really your goal, you're off on the wrong foot already.

[{CKL}]

Ouch.

[Dusty]

If you spent the amount of time it had to have taken you to type up that last response by using your pencil, you'd probably be complaining about the medium less.

Sorry....but I see stuff like this:

The medium of pencil is actually a lot more restrictive to me than digital is.

...and all I see is impatience. And being an artist isn't about being impatient, my friend. We've all been where you are, we've all been frustrated at one time or another (and I can guarantee you, even the best of the best still get frustrated daily at their art). Take the proper steps....LEARN. If you learn how to properly use pencil, ink, and paint you'll be a whiz in photoshop.

It would be a lot more annoying if I had to take a full time non-art related job while still trying to get into the industry.

Be prepared to do so. Even if you break into the industry, you have to accept this possibility at any point. Art careers are never a sure thing. No offense, but you may need a bit of the "real world" to smack you around a bit, it seems.

[Ivory_Oasis]

Part of being a commercial artist is learning how to follow instructions and work to a brief. So if that's really your goal, you're off on the wrong foot already.

The difference is I am the client here... I am the one paying money for the education. If the subject or way they are teaching isn't to my liking, as the client, I change it.

Some thing I will simply have to defer to the instructors on (as, it is what they do, like an artist who is hired by a client...sometimes the client needs to just accept what they are being told needs to be done with the work). But, other things, can be changed

Sunflower or a different flower doesn't impact the lesson being taught. It just increases my interest in the work (which, will give me a little extra energy when doing it). You work better on things you enjoy doing, I think that very much applies to education. Learning or improving does not have to be unpleasant to be effective...

I am paying them to guide me in my studies (instead of me just making it up). I am still in control of what I focus more energy to and how far I take things. The only one responsible for my success or failure as an artist is myself, I'm not going to sit back and take a passive role in my education and hope everything works out ok (when it is just a degree you are after, that is fine to do, but in art...its all in what you can do when you get out. And what you can do better match up to what you WANT to do. Doing all still-life studies the entire education with no focus on concept art would be a big mistake to someone trying to become a concept artist, for example.)