The amazin' (James) Randi appreciation thread.

**DanSTC** · January 20th, 2004, 10:33 PM

I'm sure many of you are familiar with James Randi, the stage magician-turned skeptic extraordinaire. Following in the footsteps of debunkers like the great Houdini, he prides himself in debunking all sorts of ridiculous claims; be it "psychics", alternative-medicine nutjobs like the acupuncturists, ghosts, creationists, conspiracy theorists, UFO nuts, end-of-the-world-ists, or whatever fanciful delusion people have decided to confuse with reality.

What I especially enjoy is Randi's million-dollar reward which he offers to anyone who can prove any sort of paranormal phenomina to him via controlled testing. Many have tried, but so far, no one has succeeded in passing even the preliminary tests. That being so, Randi's cool mil acts as a nice litmus test for finding out charlatans making extraoridinary claims...you can always ask yourself; if what they say is true, then why haven't they claimed the million bucks yet?

Now being an illustrator-in-training I love fantasy, but I make it a point not to confuse it with reality. Unfortunately, I still encounter the occasional professional (or more often than not, amateur like myself) who seems to have sucked himself up too far into his work, neglecting his crticial thought process and as such, falling hook-line-and-sinker for all manner of scams, cults, or other whacky beliefs.
To remedy this, guys like James Randi are excellent starting points for helping folks develop a better sense of critical thinking with regards to supernatural, pseudoscience, paranormal, and other extraordinary claims. Plus, the guy's funny as heck about all of it.

Anyway, his site is here (the James Randi Educational Foundation, a society of sketpics) where he posts his weekly blog which is always worth reading: http://www.randi.org/

**mtw** · January 20th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Penn and Teller have a show on Showtime called Bullshit. They debunk various things. I've only seen the episode on UFOs, and I thought it was good. I'm trying to see others, but not many people have posted them.

**DanSTC** · January 21st, 2004, 05:49 AM

Yeah, I watched the entire first season of "Bullshit!" They had the amazin' Randi on in a few episodes, too. They're getting renewed for a second season in 2004, btw.

Here are my P&T smileys:

:ranting: :funny:

**bat** · January 22nd, 2004, 05:00 PM

However, there is a girl that claims to have some sort of psychic abilities (she is from a European country, maybe Russia?) that Randi refuses to test. He ruled her out once, and denies her any subsequent tests.

He probably doesn't have the million dollars.

b

(if you don't believe in weird stuff, go to a country where it is the norm, then you might change your tune. I have traveled extensively, and while I don't believe in everything, I have seen my fair share of unexplainable phenomena. Just because you do not believe in odd things doesn't mean they don't believe in you.)

**jrr** · January 22nd, 2004, 09:29 PM

ok, give me the name or link to that girl...

btw, i currently own the brooklyn bridge and will sell it to you for a very low price. very low.

james randi is. DA BOMB!

**Elwell** · January 22nd, 2004, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by bat
I have traveled extensively, and while I don't believe in everything, I have seen my fair share of unexplainable phenomena. Just because you do not believe in odd things doesn't mean they don't believe in you.

Just because you can't explain something doesn't mean it's unexplainable.

**bat** · January 23rd, 2004, 06:34 AM

Come with me the next time I delve into Sumatra and you will see things before your eyes that will make you wonder.

I think Randi does an ok job as a gadfly, I will give him that.

I will try to find a name on the girl who Randi refuses to test. She might not have a website, not everyone does.

b

**DanSTC** · January 24th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by bat

I will try to find a name on the girl who Randi refuses to test. She might not have a website, not everyone does.

Periodically, there are the occasional idiots who claim that Randi "refuses to test them" but really, they're just blowing smoke in an attempt to gain cheap credibility or make Randi look like a putz. But hey, if Randi *really* refuses to test them (which he never has...he always attempts to contact the people who publically challenge him whenever he gets wind of them.) then why don't they subject themselves to controlled testing elsewhere? After all, wouldn't that show Randi up?

Anyway, once Randi gets wind of them, as for all their huffing and puffing about contacting him they never seem to have contacted him previously, he always offers to test them. Strangely, often when he does contact them after finding out that he had apparently "refused to test them" he hardly ever hears from them again.

One case of smoke-blowing involved a 'psychic' named Sylvia Browne who in september 3 2001, stated on Larry King Live that she would "Meet Randi and take on his challenge."

Randi now has a clock on his site that keeps a running tally of the number of days since Sylvia Browne issued her challenge, but strangely has yet to make good on her challenge. The clock may be viewed here: http://www.randi.org/sylvia/index.shtml

Additionally, Sylvia has since claimed that she's not going to do the test because she claims he really doesn't have the money amoung other lame excuses. (Of course, the million bux is kept in a vault at an investment firm in New York city.) She also claimed that randi wouldn't put the money into escrow when she asked him to...of course, she'd never even made such a request, or even contacted Randi or the James Randi educational foundation even though contact info is clearly stated on the site. What, a 'psychic' can't use a telephone directory or google?

**DanSTC** · January 24th, 2004, 06:44 PM

Also wanted to add:

Originally posted by bat
Come with me the next time I delve into Sumatra and you will see things before your eyes that will make you wonder.

I don't doubt that many tropical locations contain absolutely amazing things, but I doubt there'd be anything there that'd be considered supernatural/paranormal/whatever.

Just being anal-retentive, sorry.

**DanSTC** · January 24th, 2004, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by bat
However, there is a girl that claims to have some sort of psychic abilities (she is from a European country, maybe Russia?) that Randi refuses to test. He ruled her out once, and denies her any subsequent tests.

Oh yeah...I just remembered. Is this by any chance the Russian girl who uses blindfolds she can see through who claims to have ESP? Her names's Natalia Lulova, and Randi tested her. However, she didn't even pass the preliminary tests.

Randi has stuff on that here: http://www.randi.org/jr/022202.html

The girl first performed with her own blindfold and got all the answers on target. However, after trying her blindfold on for size and going "gee, I can see out of this" Randi substituted the blindfold for goggles with sponge inserts and tape coverings, rendering her completely blind. Thereafter, she failed to see anything "through" them, apparently losing her ESP once she actually WAS blind, instead of "cheating" with her own blindfold.
They also tried her again with the blindfold, this time applying opaque tape coverings around the little girl's nose around areas where she might be able to see through the cracks at the nose around by looking down at the picture in front of her. Once again, her "psychic powers" failed to manifest, since she could no longer cheat. In the end, it's just a case of a little girl tricking her family.

Since then, the kid's relatives have been raising bloody hell attempting to claim that Randi cheated them out of the money and refuses to test her further. Additionally, groups with a bone to pick with Randi like to propigate that. (Including the aforementioned Sylvia Browne.) They all fail to mention, however, that the reason why Randi won't test her any further is because she failed the preliminary tests. As in he already proved exactly how and why it's bullshit, and that it's just cheap trickery. Not because Randi is out to avoid them because she showed him up or whatever.

Also, here's a Time article on the subject: http://www.time.com/time/columnist/j...199773,00.html

For many years, as a master debunker of the paranormal, Randi had offered $1,000 and then $10,000 to anyone who could, in a test agreed upon by both Randi and the challenger, prove supernatural powers. But five years ago, a wealthy Internet entrepreneur and admirer of Randi called and said, in effect, "Ten thousand simply doesn't cut it these days." He promptly dispatched a million dollars to Randi's foundation, which purchased negotiable bonds and placed them in a special account where they await the first successful challenger. It promises to be a long wait.

Most of the challengers to date have been minor players in the world of the paranormal: a nurse who practices therapeutic touch, assorted dowsers, medical quacks and psychic readers. All have failed. But despite Randi's specific challenge to several of the big guns, none has risked being exposed. Among those who have refused are Israeli psychic Uri Geller, French chemist and mystical homeopathy buff Jacques Benveniste, "Crossing Over" host John Edward and University of Arizona scientist Gary Schwartz, who claims to have validated Edward's claims that he hears from the dead. Noted psychic Sylvia Browne, who months ago brashly promised on the Larry King show that she would indeed take the Million Dollar Challenge, has since avoided Randi's calls and has yet to be heard from.

What are they afraid of? Charlatans, fakirs, mystics, and dreamers alike, they are all too aware that James Randi's meticulously-devised tests can destroy their reputations, such as they are, and make fools of them all.

**Elwell** · January 24th, 2004, 07:58 PM

Rock on, Dan.
I assume you've seen the John Edwards episode of South Park? Best episode ever!

**DanSTC** · January 24th, 2004, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Elwell
Rock on, Dan.
I assume you've seen the John Edwards episode of South Park? Best episode ever!

You mean the one where John Edward wins the "biggest douche in the universe" award? But of cuss. I particularly enjoyed Stan explaining exactly how cold-reading works, but people falling for him even though he's screaming that it's bullshit.

Matt Stone & Trey Parker are big James Randi fans, BTW.

Edit: Also, John Edwards got his show cancelled recently. Haw haw!

**DanSTC** · January 24th, 2004, 08:26 PM

Oh yeah, new weekly update on Randi's site: http://www.randi.org/jr/012304hal.html

As if we needed the Michael Jackson matter to get any stranger, spoon-bender Uri Geller, who describes himself as "a close friend" of Jackson, now claims that a few years ago he "hypnotized" the pop star, reached into his unconscious and extracted his own "indisputable" verdict on the child-molestation charges. Says Geller, Jackson is innocent. Is there no end to Geller's talents? Next thing we know, he'll be playing the kazoo and tap-dancing!

I guess that'll be the end of the Jackson matter, right? Geller breathlessly described to the UK media how he also "influenced" the tapes of Jackson's next music release, as well, by placing his hand on the tapes. That ought'a do it. So we now know that Jackson's income problems are solved, too. Really, it's about time that Geller actually did something real for someone, since his bending of spoons for the last 30 years seems not to have altered our lives in any significant way, at least not as far as I've noticed. Thanks, Uri!

Gee, Geller was rejected by David Blaine after showing up to steal the sealed-in-a-box thunder from him. The Jackson item came along just as Geller was running out of celebrities on whose shoulders he could ride. Who's next? I understand that a prince named Charles over there needs some help….

ahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

P.S. I actually have a video of Geller saved on my hard drive that physically shows him "preparing" a spoon with his hands, while he misdirects people.

**endregan** · January 24th, 2004, 09:57 PM

he is one man.

**DanSTC** · January 25th, 2004, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by endregan
he is one man.

Indeed he is.

We should make clones.

**bat** · January 25th, 2004, 08:06 PM

Yes, that was the girl I had in mind. This situations boil down to who can make the most noise, so it isn't worth debating. Believe what you want to.

Maybe I am totally wrong, and you are all right. Maybe James Randi is 100% right, and we live pointless lives on a drab ball of rock, just waiting around for oblivion. Maybe there is no real reason to believe in anything except a cold, harsh existence.

bat

**bat** · January 25th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by DanSTC
Also wanted to add:

I don't doubt that many tropical locations contain absolutely amazing things, but I doubt there'd be anything there that'd be considered supernatural/paranormal/whatever.

Just being anal-retentive, sorry.

Unless you have been, you cannot draw any conclusions.

Just speaking from experience, I never have regrets.

b

**DanSTC** · January 25th, 2004, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by bat
Yes, that was the girl I had in mind. This situations boil down to who can make the most noise, so it isn't worth debating.

They took a video recording of the entire preliminary test. Randi even has a detailed account of the event on his site. What's to debate?

Believe what you want to.

That's where you and I differ. I really don't "believe" in anything, at least in the sense that I believe in something blindly. I either know it exists via evidence presented to me, or I must remain skeptical. Additionally, I am never ever ever 100% certain about anything, because potentially anything can change when presented with new data. Thus I have room to change and refine my viewpoint as I learn new things.
Such is how science operates, for that matter. Science essentially operates on the "best" route given what we currently know, while searching for more data, which is why science is constantly changing.
This, of course, does not mean that we should take all manner of crackpotted viewpoints seriously...we should scrutinize them by all means, but we can indeed rule them out if we have good reason to do so.

That said, I don't have any problem with making stuff up, as fiction and fantasy is where I pour my creative energies. I have an extremely active imagination, and greatly enjoy exercising it. But passing off made-up crap as truth, deceiving yourself or others with short-circuited logic is where I take issue.

Maybe I am totally wrong, and you are all right. Maybe James Randi is 100% right, and we live pointless lives on a drab ball of rock, just waiting around for oblivion. Maybe there is no real reason to believe in anything except a cold, harsh existence.

Are you kidding? The universe, according to what we know via science, is a pretty fucking awesome place. We're hardly living pointless lives on a drab ball of rock...we're creatures with complex brains who have developed the ability to look around and understand our surroundings, living on a planet that contains a diverse and active ecosystem full of all manner of fascinating forms of natural life. Human made-up supernatural/paranormal crap doesn't even begin to do any of it justice, and we've barely scratched the surface of understanding it. I find our existence absolutely incredible and fascinating, which is why science is my second love, right after art.

Originally posted by bat

Unless you have been, you cannot draw any conclusions.

Just speaking from experience, I never have regrets.

What you've just illustrated for us here would be an example of relying upon anecdotal evidence to "prove" a claim. You may have experienced something you consider extraordinary, but we cannot take your word seriously given the fact that humans are more than capable of fooling themselves into thinking they've experienced something entirely different than what actually happened to them, often unwittingly so. This factor is what stage magicians, cult gurus, and "psychic" charlatans operate on, of course. (Although stage magicians are usually pretty clear on the fact that it's all fakery, while cult gurus and psychics are especially insidious about citing the ol' "you haven't experienced the anecdotal things that I've experienced" excuse.) Additionally, this is also why often in court cases, witnesses often "see" different things in the same exact scenario.
However, if you had actual physical proof, or could demonstrate or re-create the event, or otherwise presenting us with some form of data that is not anecdotal, then after examining and subjecting the evidence to review, we might consider further testing of your claim. But as it is, it's highly likely that whatever you experienced that you thought was a paranormal/supernatural experience was anything but, and easily explained by another means.

Furthermore, the statement that people cannot draw conclusions about a location or an experience if they have not experienced something for themselves is vehemently false. For if it were true, surgeons, psychiatrists, oceaonography, historians, travel agents, and countless other professions would all be out of jobs. (As would many conceptual artists, for that matter...) We can make pretty damn good decisions about things and places we've never been to if or things we've never personally experienced we're presented with enough plausible and/or testable data and evidence. Hell, in most cases, we can make even MORE sound decisions via recorded data, since technology used to analyze or record data won't be as apt to fool us like our senses often do.

Apologies for the science lesson and all, but I often find that people who believe in supernatural stuff usually do so simply because they lack a basic understanding of science and/or logic. Really, this is all stuff that any mature, responsible adult in this day and age should be well aware of.

That said, there is often a misconception among "believers" of paranormal/supernatural junk that skeptics don't keep an open mind. On the contrary, I and other skeptics do indeed keep very open minds. This is how my views change over time, as I alter them depending on what evidence has been presented to me...I temper what I learn with a good solid understanding of critical thought process and scientific method. In this regard, there is a huge difference between simply keeping a mind that is open to new data, and keeping a wind tunnel through which any crackpotted extraordinary claim can pass.

**DanSTC** · January 28th, 2004, 11:36 AM

Whee! Randi responded to an email I sent him. What a :cool: guy.

Here's my original email, which I sent after typing out some replies in this thread:

Hi Randi, I'm a young skeptic who has something that I'd sure like you to address on your site. I was wondering if it could be arranged so that the information regarding the blowhards who claim (falsely) that you've refused to pay up the million dollars or test them in the million dollar challenge?

The reason being is that often when I cite you or your million-dollar challenge, someone often comes up and mentions that "there's someone who Randi's refused to test/refused to pay up/etc. etc. etc." I know for a fact that you've addressed as many of these claims as you've been made aware of on your site through you blog. (You also have a nice lil' mini-page for Sylvia Browne.) However, I and other skeptics would certainly appreciate it if there were a convenient place on your site that conveniently collects info about the known blowhards who've claimed that you turned down a challenge or refused to pay up, along with your contact link, encouraging people to contact you with info about people who've said such things so that you may contact them yourselves. (Since as is often the case, they often don't seem to ever contact you for some odd reason.) It'd be a good idea to link to such a page through your million-dollar challenge page too, just for convenience's sake.

Oh yeah, and the way I usually refute such statements is by saying; "Well, if they were really for real, and if Randi really DID refuse to test them or whatever, then why don't they subject themselves to similar controlled testing elsewhere? After all, if their claims did turn out to be true, not only would it be a major scientific breakthrough, but it would certainly show up Randi, wouldn't it?" Even so, it'd be good to have a page that addresses the claims by idiots that you refused to test or pay them up, along with a concise explanation for the poor saps who believe their claims that Randi is avoiding the "truth" of their extraordinary claims.

Regards,

~DanSTC

Here's his response:

There’s really no point in such a plan. It could consume the whole facilities of the Foundation to get up such a database, and we just can’t do it.

Let them rant on. We know we’ve done it right. If they want to sue, we’ll welcome it…

James Randi

And here's what I just now sent him:

Oh, don't get me wrong. I totally agree that it's a waste of time to dwell on every single crackpot that lies out his ass. They spend so very little time and effort coming up with dishonesty, so why should they be credited with a thought-out response for every one of their intellectually lazy/dishonest statements?

However, it would be nice to collect a few of the more noteworthy cases that come to mind in a section of their own. (Sylvia Browne for one, which already has a small section dedicated to her.) An FAQ of some sort about a few of the nuances of the million dollar challenge would also be an excellent reference.

Also, I've noticed that "believers" I've talked to often bring up the case of Lulova as though she somehow "trumped" you and that's why you're refusing any further testing. (Generally they got this secondhand from someone with a bone to pick with the Randi educational foundation.) Of course, given your detailed account of the preliminary tests and the video recording you took of the event, it's pretty safe to assume it's a lot of bullshit. They also overlook the fact that she failed the preliminary tests, which is the real reason why you're refusing to test her again.

Speaking of bullshit, I eagerly await the second season of Penn & Teller's show. (I greatly enjoyed your appearance on the show, btw.) Personally I hope they do bits on haunted houses, homeotherapy, trascendental meditation, and scientology this time 'round.`

~DanSTC

**DanSTC** · January 28th, 2004, 10:24 PM

Update: Randi's response to my response.

>They also overlook the fact that she failed the preliminary tests, which is the real reason why you're refusing to test her again.<

No, not at all. We agreed to test her again after a year had passed. Her lawyer has been trying to dictate the way the test will be done. We won’t do it that way; we don’t take ultimatums.

Heh, how about that? I wasn't even aware of that.

**DanSTC** · February 1st, 2004, 05:28 PM

Another Amazin' update here: http://www.randi.org/jr/013004andr.html

Among other things, there's stuff on magic charms for pets, cat psychics, feng shui law, and moving moving tables in Germany.

Also:

Over the New Year holiday I dropped in on an alterative festival called a CONFEST. There were about 5,000 hippies and other seekers of the truth and alternative medicine at this very attractive bush (forest) site. Because it was hot (the southern hemisphere's summer) most people went barefoot. As the bush floor contained many sharp sticks and other sharp stones and objects, many of the attendees cut their feet. The organizers had thoughtfully set up a first aid tent staffed by conventional practitioners of medicine. Many alternative healers and the like set up tents and healing workshops. Strangely, when the hippies cut their feet, all of them went straight to the practitioners of conventional medicine to have the wounds washed, antiseptic put on, and bandaged. None of them went to an alternative healer for treatment. Why?

Yeah, gosh...wonder why?