How common is the use of DAZ/Poser/Painting over 3D render or photograph?

[freiheit]

I started to paint a character on top of a poorly rendered (blame my sucky 3D skills) naked DAZ model. Had to dump the hands and feet because they were to stiff, worked the pose a bit for the same reasons but even then... it saved me a tremendous amount of time.

It also got me thinking about how often paint overs are used in the industry. Sine it's a bit taboo, it's hard to get an idea of how common it is. Even people who advocate it's use rarely mention it in the description of pieces they post in their galleries (often to avoid the debate that usually follows).

So yeah, just putting it out there, does anyone here include 3D and photographic bits in their process? Any good or bad ways to use this? Should someone that sucks at 3D (like me) avoid it, or can painting skills make-up for the poor quality of the render?

For the people who do use 3D in their pieces, are you hybrid 3D/2D artist or to you use tools available out there like DAZ models, or sketchup's extensive bank of 3D props.

(I would like to avoid the ''sis it good or pure evil'' debate though, it's a bit of a tired subject.)

[dpaint]

I use photo plates when its called for, like a matte extension or modification. I did it with my Marooned piece. When I specifically took a photo of something that I knew I wanted to use as the basis of an idea and I painted right on the plate.

I guess you could use it for figures if you can't draw them, otherwise drawing would be faster.

[freiheit]

Thanks for sharing, it's really nice to look at where it started and where it ended.

I can draw figures, but not quite as fast as I can press '' export''. Not having to draw body parts that have to be there for proportion's sake but that will be covered is nice. I guess I should practice speed-painting is it's supposed to be even faster then exporting a 3D model.

If I may ask, how long do you put on a figure with neutral pose, and a bit of volumes and light rendered in?

[Dusty]

I think it's only taboo if you use it in an unethical way.
Like if you do a google image search for a poser model and paint over someone else's pose, I think that is trying to claim someone else's work as your own (someone else posed it and even modeled).

But if you are modelling/posing something YOURSELF in 3D and just using it as your "sketch circles", I don't really see the harm in that.

Occasionally something will get too complex for me and I will check my work with 3D studio Max Bipeds. They basically look like 3D versions of a wooden mannequin. With one recent painting, I needed a lot of human figures in the same scene writhing in pain and it was becoming a nightmare trying to make each one expressive with no reference...as I wanted each body to be twisted and turned in different ways. So what I did was I posed a bunch of Bipeds in the way that I wanted and then drew my sketch circles over the top of them as they represented the basic bone structure I was looking for.

The way I see it, it is not unethical, because it's just basic structure (basically, motion lines)...I still have to solve the REAL bones and muscle structure myself with the drawing. Like everything out there, it's just a tool and how you use it.

As long as you can honestly say "this is my artwork" and not someone else's, I think you are being ethically sound.

[dpaint]

Something like this takes me twenty or thirty minutes. No Ref... obviously. I just think I get more from this than going for a model right away. I believe in ref, just at the later stages. Maybe you meant after you worked out your idea not before?

[freiheit]

It's the first time I use a 3D model rather then doing everything from scratch so I don't have a ''modus operandi''. Right now, I have my trusty sketchbook by my side, I design my ideas in it and then paint in photoshop, if it doesn't look good, I go back to my sketchbook and try out different ideas and thumdnails.

[arenhaus]

Is it common? Oh yes. Lots and lots. Usually with horrendous results.

[freiheit]

Everyone has seen horrendous superposition of poorly rendered 3D and photographs. :p I'm more interested in it's use by professionals.

[PxelSlayer]

Ok, so I`m kinda glad somebody brought up this subject, b/c I`ve been wanting to ask you guys - what do you think about using poser and/or DAZ Studio as a learning tool?

Now, as far as I can see, the GOOD thing about it is that DAZ Studio is free, and it comes with a base female figure which you can pose how ever you like. And with limits turned on, there are no "weird" posing issues. BAD thing, though - no muscular system on the figures, and bending/collision detection is next to non-existent. B00bs look fake, rear end looks fake (unless you manage to find some mods which can be purchased)...well, everything looks fake. But...the proportions are there, which seems to be helpful in orientating the figure, figuring out certain poses (as I already said),and hands seem to look OK (big plus in my book), etc...There should be some improvement with the release of new GEN 5 figures, but we`ll just have to wait and see.

So, what is your verdict? How useful can this tool be as a learning resource(After we take in account the following - NOTHING replaces life drawing and drawing from life).

[Stoat]

Considering illustrators will happily pose action figures and rough clay models and photograph them, I'd be astonished if none of them were using 3D. I'm just getting started with 3D (after a pause of several years) but I certainly intend to try blending models back into illustration.

As a learning tool...oof. I suppose it's no different from working with a mannequin, as long as you thought of it that way. There's so much subtlety missing...veins, flesh crinkles. It's surprising how many professional illustrators don't seem to know the difference between a muscle at rest and a muscle under load.

[arenhaus]

So, what is your verdict? How useful can this tool be as a learning resource.

Not very, for that same reason: it is a glorified mannequin. The "realistic" shader skin on it only pushes it into the Uncanny Valley. The muscles do not look right, they do not connect in the right places and bulge in wrong ones, forearms do not twist right, hands and feet are wooden, etc. Worst of all, there are subtle proportional errors everywhere, and there is no feel of weight and gravity whatsoever. Every single figure in the montage you attached floats in mid-air, even the ones that are supposed to be standing on the floor.

Until it functions 100% like a natural human figure, it won't be any sort of replacement for one.

The treachery lies in that the fake human figures in Poser or DAZ Studio can seem good enough to someone with little experience. You might notice they are fake, but I am not sure that anyone can. What's for certain is that without a good grasp of anatomy one couldn't understand what's wrong with them. And some people will surely think that these models are better than what they can make anyway, so why not use them? So we get a lot of them in wannabes's pictures. But people who use them as crutches to prop their lack of skill will not improve their skill, for lack of incentive, and that's the trap.

[Elwell]

As someone who has played around quite a bit with using Poser and Daz figures for reference, I agree with everything arenhaus says. You have to already understand the living figure to pose one properly. You have to already understand proportion and anatomy to see and correct the problems with the figures. You have to already understand how light works to light one properly. And if you don't, what you end up with is the horrible things you see by the thousands on Poser-focused sites (and, increasingly, on self-published fantasy book covers).

[PxelSlayer]

So, I`m back to square one...how to learn anatomy/figure drawing without

a) Going to art academy
b) Having no "public access" nude figure drawing classes (as there are none in Croatia (being small country and all))
c) Not relying on photos/books/porn movies as they are not the real thing. (Well, nothing is "the real thing" except "the real thing", right?)

Conundrums, conundrums...Dear Lord, why am I into art? Couldn`t I be a car mechanic or something? It sure as hell would be a lot simpler (with all the workshops around)

[Elwell]

Photos are lacking, but they're a better option for learning than Poser.