Need help; sketch of a duel

**Terekjet** · February 19th, 2009, 04:06 PM

Well, i wanna do a new pic for training with anathomy and dinamism, and decided to work on this duelists pic, they will be samurais when the bic became improved.
This is just the base sketch with basic lights and the poses of them, killing themselves.

the red lines are the swords move, the cut.

Can u tell me if u see it ok, or if u see some things wrong? any help will be great!!!

thanks!

**Asatira** · February 19th, 2009, 05:13 PM

These don't look like dueling samurai; from what I know, samurai dueled with katanas that are two handed swords. These two look more like European duelists, which may be a better approach considering one is dueling with two swords and the swords look closer to rapiers than katanas.

Anatomy wise, I think the legs are very loose and too foreshortened, making the legs too out of proportion. The nearer legs of both are like twice the size of the further legs.

**Mumph** · February 19th, 2009, 05:17 PM

Fisrt of all I don´t think that the thing you are trying to do with the right guys leg is working. For that to work I think the thigh needs to become thinner. Also both of the characters legs are extremly small and the also the left guys foot. Are you cropping out the feet because they are hard to draw?

Look at some reference for the anatomy, I did a very quick paint-over just to better make my points but i´m not at all good with anatomy so you´ll have to look at reference or wait for someone else to help with that.
Keep it up!

**Aphotic Phoenix** · February 19th, 2009, 05:20 PM

Very tricky image you've decided to attempt here, especially with such a low horizon line, and extreme use of perspective.

I'm not good with perspective, but it seems to me that horizon line is low in comparison to the angle of the bodies. There are also some foreshortening inconsistances, such as the foreleg of the man on the right, which doesn't taper enough, especially considering the body size and thinness of the legs in the background.

In both figures the back legs don't seem to connect to their bodies properly, especially the figure on the left. The left figure is also very off balance, as if falling backwards, but his body position (straight back) doesn't convey he's being forced backwards. In fact both figures are rather stoically taking their death...the guy on the right should curl forward (at least slightly) with the force of a sword going into his stomach.

**Terekjet** · February 19th, 2009, 06:59 PM

Glad to have all this helpfull comments guys! thanks!

But i would like to take some advices on how to make this exagerated leg foreshortenings a little more credible.

( i dont wanted to draw feet here just for the angle, personally, i find more dificult the hands, a lot more ^^ )
I will curl forward the right guy a little, ure right with ur words mate

Finally, how do u find the light source? is it well focused on the figures?

**Terekjet** · February 19th, 2009, 08:21 PM

Adjusted the poses a lil and defined th anathomy
am i on the correct way?

**vandalrat** · February 19th, 2009, 08:48 PM

I think it would be a good idea to work this on grayscale and worry about color later on. At this point you are having enough problems with value as to be trying to worry about value and color at the same time.

The different body parts should have different values depending on how close/far they are to the viewer, I think maybe the limbs that are further away should have a ligther value, and probably not be focused at all.

Also, that dude looks very calm for someone who got a sword stuck in him, I'm not sure who said he had his students do a comic with a character without a face, his head was just plain, this way students will realize how body does 90% of the characters expression, and learned not to depend to much in their faces to get the point across.

Then, I think you should get either poser or daz/studio to help with anatomy, foreshortening and lighting, daz/studio is free and if you lurk their site a little I think Michael 3 and Victoria 3 base figures are free to download.

**Terekjet** · February 20th, 2009, 03:45 AM

Thanks for the tips !
Well i still didnt worked the colors, just the sky bases, but will be more stronger in colors later. i will try to practise the b/w
Yeah the idea of not focused members sounds really good, ill try.

The only thing is what you said about his calm, well u have to think that a sword ( if the move is good) enters in a body in no time ( like 0,5 seconds?) and this willl represent the moment of the stab, they almost made their moves at same time, and almost havent any time ro even have a reflex action of his body, i think just the eyes will be the ones that had time to show thet they understand how dead are.

**Terekjet** · February 20th, 2009, 07:34 AM

Edit for update:

Defined the musculation of both with basic guide lines, adjusted a lil the poses, and sketched the outfits and hair. next steep will be the first highlights and darkest zones.

How is looking ?? any tips?

EDIT and UPDATE

added base color highlights and redefined some shapes, added some atmosfear effect to their background arms

Open to hear all you, people ^^

**mimer** · February 21st, 2009, 05:47 AM

the left leg on the character on the right still looks way out of proportion. there still seems to be a lot of anatomy issues but im not good enough at it myself to be specific, so ill leave any other specific anatomy crits to more experienced artists. The leg really stands out as an error to me though, along with the right character having a very small head.

Regards.

**Terekjet** · February 23rd, 2009, 11:52 AM

Update: added some definition to the faces and highlighted their bodies and hair.
Added some definition to the battle terrain and sketched the two armies .

How is looking guys?

**Jovian M** · February 24th, 2009, 01:07 PM

The characters look like they've been pasted onto the background, for one.

I think you've kind of been ignoring everyone about this, so I'll say it again; the fella' on the right's leg is way off, still. Got some Rob Liefeld arms up there, too.

**Terekjet** · February 24th, 2009, 07:52 PM

Well, i rendered more, maybe finished, maybe not, that was a good practice, a total of 10-12 hours more or less.
Yes, i know what u mean about the leg, but i just liked it to enphatice the point of view.

what do u think?

**Apollonian** · February 27th, 2009, 12:13 AM

Looking at the last one, it's excellent. The only thing i could say is that the color of the upper sky seems off. Maybe it's too blue. It sticks out too much because the rest of the picture is mostly brown and gray. See what you can do about the saturation.

Also, look at the small muscles on their sides and back. Looks a little bizarre. You should blend the shadows more so those muscles aren't as defined.

**Terekjet** · March 1st, 2009, 08:09 AM

Thanks for the crit apollonian! ill try to improve it ^^

**mimer** · March 1st, 2009, 05:56 PM

emphasis doesnt work if the anatomy is wonky. right now the most noticeable parts of this piece is that it has major problems with the anatomy. It is a pain to do, but I would suggest going back to the basics with this one before rendering it, because now the immediate focus is, among other things, that massive lower left leg.

**Terekjet** · March 1st, 2009, 07:29 PM

I suppose(well i know)that u know it, but when something is nearer to u, the bigger it seems to be, its an exagerated trick to emphatise this, i liked this leg, even knowing that is irreal and too big, but as i told before, i liked how it helps to emphatise the low point of view.

**Sidharth Chaturvedi** · March 2nd, 2009, 03:20 AM

Terekjet, listen to what everyone is saying about the leg. You are not going to see that kind of exaggeration unless you get extreeeeemly close to the figure. In this case, you won't be able to fake the low ground level either because you haven't drawn the figures in perspective- we're looking at them straight on. The drawing is looking really nice, but it is crucial that the leg be made thinner- everyone who looks at it will say it's an error, and it isn't the kind of thing you should have to explain.

On the plus side, I think the background is working really well, and you've got a lot of drama going with the lighting. All the more reason to fix the anatomical problems- there's a lot of good work here and you don't want to waste it!

-Sid

**mimer** · March 2nd, 2009, 07:14 AM

Ok, one last time. you like it even though you know it is wrong to make it that big?

This didnt strike me as a surreal piece, and if you are going for correct anatomy and perspective on this piece, you have a number of glaring errors that need to be adressed, otherwise people will not see the image you are trying to depict, they will see primarily the errors in that image, do you want that?

A number of people on this thread have pointed them out to you, will you take their advice, which i why you came here in the first place i assume?

Look at the clothed thighs on both men. they are pretty much exactly the same size, yet the lower leg on the figure to our right is huge, from the knee down. This doesnt work. you either fix it or you dont, but saying that you like it that way doesnt make it less of a mistake.

**Terekjet** · March 2nd, 2009, 07:41 AM

Sorry, i didnt wanted to seem rude, and yes, u are right, i came here to be helped, and listening u another time, what should i do?? take my pen and start to fix this leg ^^
I will post the update when done!

**Terekjet** · March 2nd, 2009, 08:37 AM

Well, updated, i attempted to fix the leg, how is looking guys ?

**Jonas Heirwegh** · March 2nd, 2009, 05:52 PM

Hey,

I think before you start rendering and adding detail you should make sure the poses and underlying structure is good. Right now I think the poses are really stiff and dont suggest allot of movement. The only thing that adds a bit of movement is the hair and clothes, but without those "details" they dont seem to be moving much.
These kind of illustrations are really hard though so dont worry about making mistakes, everybody does.

I tried to explain a couple of things with a quick sketch. Another tip is to study other artists who are good at this kind of stuff. Take a look at Frazetta, Justin Sweet, Marko Djurdjevic, etc..
Also take a look at old masters for body movements, Peter Paul Rubens for example!

Ow btw, dont take my so called anatomy and proportions as a reference. Its pretty off overall but I hope these help.

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