SAGIR's Perspective, Composition and Anatomy.

[SAGIR]

OK guys, I will start by saying that I have never mentored on line before, hence, It will be a little more difficult for me than tutoring students face to face. Second, as you know, I am not a professional teacher, nor a professional painter or illustrator - yet. This means you are welcome, I should even say it’s your duty, to question everything we’ll be discussing here, we all will benefit from this.
One more thing, my english is ok but I’m not a native speaker, feel free to correct my mistakes or ignore them.

Having that said ....
Welcome to my Perspective Mentoring thread otherwise known as....
HELLLLLLL!!!!! just kidding.

Participants:
Novbert
Abichai
Neondevil

Basic Principles of Perspective.

Spatial awareness - I don’t have a scientific name for this one so I made this up. What it basically means is always being aware the viewer’s location in the scene. In order to produce a correct perspective sketch you have to decide the viewer’s standing point (distance from buildings) the height of the eye (this determines the horizon line) and the direction of my line of sight (perpendicular to a certain surface or parallel to it).In my head- I always have the Image of the environment I’m painting in ‘top’ view. I recommend you to do a small sketch - a plan of the environment (including the viewer’s location) before you start drawing. This will also give you the understanding about which lines are parallel to each other so you’d know how to deal with it.
Horizon line - The location of the horizon line in the picture is determined by the height of the viewer’s eyes. That means if you place it really low - you’ll be looking at the scene from ant’s point of view. Place it close to the frame’s top and you’ll get a feeling you are flying above the scene. Of course, when you shift the horizon’s height the appearance of the whole scene changes and not just the line itself. That’s because the horizon line is where the vanishing points located. I’ll get to it next. Here’s an example:



One important thing to understand, think about the line of horizon as a section (side view) of a plane parallel to the ground and located above it as hight as the viewers eyes. Wherever the horizon intersects a tree or a building it intersects all of them in the same height (as long as they are all located on the same surface). Illustration: 




Vanishing point - This is an Important one: All lines which are parallel in reality, will meet in one vanishing point, which is located on the horizon line. Here’s a picture of a road to illustrate this. The two white lines are parallel in reality and that’s why the go to the same vanishing point on the horizon.


Let’s say we’d like to add a building next to this road. some lines on this building will be parallel to the white lines, hence, will go to same vanishing point as the white ones.


Sight cone - Humans are not flies. we don’t see 180 degrees. Our cone of sight is approximately 35 degrees in diameter. That is something to take into consideration when thinking how much of the environment can co inside our frame. Following the rules of perspective we can get away with painting much more than 35 degrees but don’t stretch it too much. A panoramic view with only one or two vanishing points will look skewed.




ONE and TWO POINT PERSPECTIVE.

Remember I said it is important to be aware of the viewers line of sight direction? Well imagine that you stand in front of a large cube (building). If your line of sight is perpendicular to the direction of one of his faces (parallel to the other) , this face won’t be affected (skewed) = the edges that surround this face don’t go to the vanishing point. Only the faces that are parallel to the viewers line of sight will be skewed to the vanishing point. This case is called ONE point perspective (we need only one point) or FRONTAL perspective (half of the faces are facing us directly)

The other common cases is the TWO POINT perspective. This is used when the viewer is looking at the cube from a corner (neither face is parallel or perpendicular to our line of sight) In this case we will need two vanishing points, because we have two groups of edges parallel to each other, each group with its own vanishing point.

IMPORTANT: The vertical lines are not effected by the perspective in ONE and TWO point perspectives. They change their length (depending on distance from viewer) but always stay vertical!


I could go much longer about the rules but I hope we will polish those rules through the exercises.

1st Exercise:
I'd like you to produce a single point perspective. Start with simple cube practicing and maybe get to the interior of a room with simple angular objects in it. Don't mess with round and organic shapes for the time being.
Please follow the principles. Determine the horizon line and vanishing point. Add a little plan of the room with the viewers location and line of sight. you can use the ruler but don't erase the guidelines, I'd like to see the process. We won't deal with composition yet but try to make it a nice image as well and somewhat challenging for you.

The next Illustration by Robert. S. Oliver explains pretty well all the above principles regarding the ONE point perspective.



Always, First determine the horizon line (viewers hight)

Here are some Inspirational images of one point persp.

From R.S. Oliver's 'The Complete Sketch', I'm especially fond of his style.

Ones you know your perspective, even the quickest sketch is enough to portray the idea.



Three more of Oliver's two make things clearer about one point persp.

I understand that perspective is complicated to begin with. So don't be shy to post questions and I will do my best to clarify the issue.
Also feel free to post works other than the exercises to get some perspective critique.
I'll try to comment as much as I can but large posts like this one do take a lot of time so I'll need more time to work on them.

IMPORTANT : Comment on each other's works. Not for each others sake, but for your own. Being able to see that something is not right with a picture and better yet to see what it is - is a very good practice.

HUMAN ANATOMY

Initially I thought that we should just practice copying different parts of body to better understand it. However, I've noticed that you do it in your sketchbooks, and hopefully will continue doing, regardless to this mentoring session, plus, you don't need me for doing that. I have noticed that you guys (and me) have more difficulties when it comes to painting people without references. So how 'bout we'll try some poses without references?
You can and should use references for various body parts but I'd like you to compose the pose yourself and not copy it.

1st Exercise:

Man bending over to pick up a coin from the floor. Front view and side view.

(You are welcome to offer other methods of anatomy practice if you have ideas)

As said, you can post your anatomy paintings, other than the exercises to get crits from me and each other.

I think this will do for the first post. there's no due date for the exercises, It's basically until I will see that the basic knowledge is absorbed or until I have time to edit the next lesson. Let's roll!

[Neondevil]

Did you want us to post as we progress on them or just finished ones?


Also how finished did you want them? Just a line drawing, shading etc?

[SAGIR]

Line drawings will do just fine. There are some perspective rules for painting shadows with which we will deal further down the thread.

I don't think that for now there's no need to post the WIP. As I mentioned, don't erase the guidelines and it will be enough for me to understand how you worked.

[lilou]

wow that was a good introduction to what perspective means and how it has to be build... thank you!!!

but I really would like to know what is a three point-perspective and how do I have to build it.... mind to show me that?

thanks again

[Novbert]

I was hesitating whether I should post every drawing as soon as I made them, and eventually I decided I should . (Just tell me if it's disturbing for anybody and I'll send the later assignment drawings in one post) Actually I'm kinda excited with this human anatomy assignment - I have barely tried to draw any human figures without reference so far.
So here is the first part of the human anatomy assignment, the sideview.



It wasn't too easy (front view will be even harder, yes I know ) and I kept the shading dirty, 'cause my knowledge about muscles is a little ... superficial - and that knowledge would be essential to make the shading more detailed imho. (I haven't used any ref or anatomy material during the drawing process - I wanted to test what I can do without them.)
Anyway, here are the WIP images:



Comments and crits are welcome.
I'll send the other view and the persp study later this week.

[SAGIR]

lilou - Composing a three point perspective is not that simple. It will take some time to put together an appropriate explanation. This will happen when me and the guys participating this mentoring thread' will get to this topic. Meanwhile, I think you can google for it and find some proper info.

Novbert - I don't see why posting as many as you want should disturb anyone. I will comment whenever I'm available and meanwhile, you might just earn a comment from someone else.

I'm really glad to see all your reference drawing paying off in this exercise. It looks good on first sight which is always important.
About the shading, I think it is better to leave those aside. This shading blurs some of the anatomical information we are trying to learn (and also hides your mistakes). Leave it at the line level, the third one out of your thumbnail process is perfect. And now, some critique:

The most noticeable mistake in your figure is the long arm, too long. Notice that the lower half of his arm is almost as long as his shin. In reality - it is more like two thirds of the shin. Now, for him to reach the floor with a normal size arm he would need to bend down a bit more, (it is all a chain reaction when it comes to painting poses) meaning, you have to lower his shoulders and the highest point in this figure will be closer to his behind rather than the mid point of his arched back.

His left hand is for some reason thiner then his right. Perspective almost doesn't play a role at this distance.

Hands (including palms and fingers) are an important part of the body, I'd say it is the most expressive organ after the eyes. I suggest you to practice it as well and not neglect it. Painting fingers picking a coin from the floor is maybe difficult but surely is a good practice.

My last crit for this piece will be about his legs, The position you painted them is possible (I presume that a woman with a really tight and long skirt would bend this way) but it is not natural, since it is hard for one to balance him self while bending with his knees touching each other. Try bending yourself, you'll find that even when you place your feet next to each other, your knees would move sideways (outward) as you bend. This is something you need to indicate when drawing the knees and I actually thing it will look more natural if the knee overlaps the elbow and not the other way around. Since our knees are moving outward it is also not logical that we don't see the other leg at all (They don't overlap so perfectly plus, he now looks as if he has only one leg)

In general, when working on a pose, I often pose myself (many times), it doesn't have to be in front of the mirror, even just to pay attention to how the joints and the limbs act on every motion.

Good effort, keep it up.

[Novbert]

Thanx for the detailed crit on my drawing, Sagir.
I'm glad if you also think that it looks good for the first sight - I think that's the point I can reach now.
Shading - okay, I won't experiment with this (at least not in this thread) till you specifically ask me to do.
I haven't noticed the issue with the lenght of the arm, but you're right. I think I have still not spent enough time with figure drawing to know these kind of relations. I definitely need to do more firgure sketches.
Hands - another thing I have barely drawn so far. I'll check my Bammes books for some samples of them.

In general, when working on a pose, I often pose myself (many times), it doesn't have to be in front of the mirror, even just to pay attention to how the joints and the limbs act on every motion.

Me too . I think it's a good way to learn things about poses I want to draw - even if I look like an idiot while doing this

A question here: You mentioned that figure drawing is basically drawing a chain reaction. What method would you recommend to draw that chain? I started this drawing by sketching the torso first - which may not be the best idea, since the parts of the torso are the ones which are not connected to any fix point. Maybe it would be a better idea (at least in this specific case) to decide the positions of the feet first (and draw them), then the height and position of the pelvis, and draw it in position, then the placement of the knees. At this point we'll have the (measurable) lenght of the thigh and the shin, so we can measure the other parts of the body to them.
After this I'd decide the placement of the palms, and then the right position of the shoulders and the torso could be found more easier. Also the placement and orientation of the head follows from the position of the torso, and the line of sight.
Maybe this sounds very ... complicated (cause it is) but as I'm not a natural born figure painter, I can feel that I need some kind of systematic approach to figure drawing very badly.
On second thought this process can be initiated with some kind of rough basic study of the figure, but the measuing and constructing parts mustn't be missed imho.
I'd be grateful if you'd share your thoughts about this process, or share yours. Or both

[Neondevil]

1/3 the rest are on the way.

[Novbert]

Since Sagir encouraged us to comment on each other's work, I'll do so.
I think there are some issues with your drawing, Neondevil. First of all: Lack of structure. The drawing looks like you made it in two steps: sketching the whole figure with skechy grey lines...and then drawnig sketchy black lines over it. That's not the best approach imho.
Of course you can keep your drawing sketchy but it's only good for hiding those anatomy detail we're trying to learn (just like blurred shading in my image). I'd suggest that you should remove all the unnecessarly lines and keep the linework as clean as possible. Using longer strokes would also be nice. They make the forms easier to read.
I'd also recommend you to sketch some kind of skeleton of the figure first (like Loomis' mannikin), and then draw the outline of the figure based on the skeleton. It's easy to make measurements and correct mistakes, when it's only about a skeleton, but a little harder on more detailed drawings (mainly beacuse it's a bit harder to see if something went wrong).

About the pose: I think the legs are the best part of it for some reason (though half of them are covered by the trausers). The shape of the feet look okay. Maybe they are a bit oversized but I'm not sure. I could tell more if I'd see the whole left foot. (don't let bodyparts hang out of the image when it comes to figure drawing)
The crotch area is a bit off (As it looks like a male figure there must be some space for reproducitve organs ) The torso isn't bent enough, and the arms are way too straight! In this pose arms sould be bent more and the loss of length (between the shoulders and the hands) should be compensated by more bending on the torso. Hands would work better with less detail, and they look too big but maybe just in relation with the arms which are short.
I don't think drawnig facial details are necessary at this point.
Oh, and another thing (not related to the figure, but to the perspecitve): that barrow isn't placed right. It should be in line with - at least - the right foot, but if you draw the middle line of that foot you'll see that it's behind it.
That's all.
Sagir?

[SAGIR]

Hi guys, glad to see we are progressing.

Novbert - thumbs up for taking time to comment on the work of others. The more you force yourself into understanding what's wrong in other pieces, the more confident you will feel in your own work. That's a promise.
As to myself, I find that this is not only about recognizing the faults, but also trying to arrange my thoughts, so that the output will be clear and easy to understand, that helps me improve.

Neondevil - I agree with almost everything that Novbert said, I appologise in advance if I may repeat some of his critique in my own words.
I especially second Novbert on his first paragraph. The lines in your sketch are so thick , and in places - really dense, that is obscures anatomical details, and there are many. To achieve a more anatomically detailed pose you will need to keep it a bit cleaner.

The biggest problem in this piece is the man's stiffness. Boy, is he stiff. To be honest, I am not sure what he is doing, I presume he is bending towards this cart, but he seems to have problems bending any of his limbs and some kind of sore back issue. (sorry if I'm a bit hard with my crits, just trying to get my point across as clearly as possible)
If I put myself in your character's place (and I really did practice this pose myself), the first thing I would do when approaching a heavy object on the floor is bending my front leg a little to bring the torso closer to the cart. Second, I will bend forward with my shoulders and only being close enough I will extend my arms to pick it up. (Chain reaction) Your character has his arms fully extended while he is too far from the object and his legs are straight, that gives him this kind of 'zombie going for the kill' look. (stiff)

You seem to have drawn this dude in a too general manner, ignoring some important details like toes, the joints on the fingers and many 'less important' muscles, once again making it look stiff. Try paying attention to all the Ingredients of this complex machine called - the human body.

Clothes - I would not mention this as a problem if I would see that there's a well figured out human body lying underneath it, unfortunately this is not yet the case, so I would recommend you drawing naked folks for the time being. After all we want to see as much anatomy as possible.

Taking a shot at face drawing at this stage is acceptable but you should really put some more thought in to it. I would say that it is an idea of the face what we see here (eye, nose, some indication of mouth) rather then an actual face. It is not crucial to deal with faces at this level but if you do decide to study something, do it right.

Some specific remarks I'd like to add:
Since he is bending we should see his head and facial details a little from top view and not completely in profile.
His left shoulder doesn't seem to be effected enough by the movement of his hands, it should go lower.
The feet are a little big, plus, they look swollen. ant the 'what it's name' (a little bone sticking sideways on our ankles) is huge on his right foot and doesn't exist on his left)

I assume that you guys do read the crits of other's work, cause many of them are relevant to all of you and I don't see the need to repeat the same sentences, if we can find it in the previous post.

P.S. - The man looks quite happy for someone who's dealing with a pile of crap.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - Unfortunately, unlike in my perspective drawing, I'm not systematic enough in my gesture drawing. Simply, because, I think I don't have enough practice with it. I am not yet at this level where I can paint a perfect pose in a minute, however, I am proud to say that I'm in a place where I can always see if something is wrong (or at least I think I can), thus given enough time and a big eraser - I can produce pretty much any pose I desire. Now this is really important - DON'T BE SHY WITH THE ERASER. The downside of building carefully each hand and finger is that you get attached to the painting to the point where you might keep even some wrongly positioned parts. I work very quickly at the beginning, sketching the whole pose with just a couple of lines, and only when satisfied with it, I start curving the anatomy.

By 'Chain reaction' I men that it is a physical chain reaction - all our organs are connected physically therefore an action will very rarely affect only one muscle or limb without causing others into action.

In this specific pose I would start with the legs. then shoulders and arm (making sure it reaches the floor) then connect those two part with a torso and finally the head. But, as I said I'm not to systematic about it since I often erase parts and redraw them until It 'clicks'. One thing I can say is that when I draw a pose without reference, I always start with the part which is the most interesting for me. That's just my way, I'm sure there are more rational and systematic ways like Loomis'.

Since you asked, here's a little insight to a piece I'm working on right now. I intentionally don't use any references, to practice. It's not a too realistic character but it has no meaning pose-wise.

All I knew in the beginning is that I want to draw a rock guitarist going crazy while paying. I had an image in my head of his wide open mouth screaming and his back arched backwards, so, this is what I started with and you can see it remained with me for the whole process. Every thing else I did with a lot of trial and error, a lot!

I would sketch a pose, look at it for a few seconds, then erase and repaint, one foot, or one hand or the whole lower part of his body. Of course you do need basic anatomic understanding to do quick sketches but I don't really focus on details until I find the right pose.



This is only a small amount of the changes in the process, my character would usually go through tens of those. Most of these thumbnails are pretty good posses (not weird or distorted) but not the specific feel I wanted. Once I found the right pose I sketched up a background (this also required adjusting the pose a little) and than started redrawing some anatomic details. This is where it is currently standing:



It is intended to have a really clean look eventually, going for the "GoriLLaz" look. You are welcome to throw some crits at me as well.

[Novbert]

wow, thanx for describing your figure drawing process - very informative, and the sketch also looks cool. some nitpicking: though the toes aren't too detailed I think they should bend forward to make this little fella look he stands stable on the floor (and not backward, as it can be seen on his right foot). and don't forget to connect that guitar to those giant speakers. Nice gesture and character anyway, I like the exarregated anatomy you applied.

About your process: I'll definitely try this approach. I'm always confused when it comes to drawing figures - maybe because I started my studies with portrait drawings, which is a really straightforward process without all those forshortened limbs and stuff.
I'd love to see how this guitarist improves, so send some more WIPs as you progress pretty please. Maybe it's a bit off-topic (maybe it isn't - it's also a figure drawing after all) but as I have problems with lighting, shading and coloring (not to mention textures) and I'm wondering how you do all this stuff on a refless drawing. Some basic explanation would also be nice.
Teach me, man! I wanna learn!

[SAGIR]

Thanx for the remarks, Novbert.

About the toes, I was actually thinking about bending them more backward (like on his right foot) indicating that his in a middle of a small jump, also tried to show it in the way that his dropped shadow doesn't reaches the toes. Definitely need some work there.

Still haven't decided if I want the guitar's cord swinging in the air or falling to the floor.

I will post it again as I will advance.

[Novbert]

oops, I haven't noticed that shadow thingy - it explains the position of the toes.
On the other hand jumping in this position doesn't seems to be possible for me. Both legs and torso are bent backward too much. I think his right leg could be in the air, but at least his left should touch the floor (like he made a giant step sideways).
The guitar's cord swinging in the air is a great idea - it would make the image even more dynamic.
I'm looking forward to see the finished piece (and the in progress ones of course).

[Abichai]

hi everyone sry i haven't a lot of time because i've my last exam this tuesday ^^ However I try to made the 1st assignment in perspective so I post some of my perspective drawing the 1st draw is just cube with the 1VP, 'nd the second is a sheet of little try to do room with 1VP (there is also some other draw with no link)

I hope I understand the 1st assignment in perspective I just draw my horizon line + my VP, and i don't use the rule...i don't know if it's important.

To the 1st assignemnt in anatomy i hope i will achieve this one because i'm just at the beginning with study of skeleton ^^

See u next 'nd ty for the comments ^^ now I post one drawing I will comments too the drawing of you but i don't have a big experience on it.

PS: forgive me for the mistake in my english

[Neondevil]

Some perspective. I left the guidelines in.

[Neondevil]

Actually since we're at it with anatomy and all you think you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think?

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...22#post1805622

[Novbert]

Actually since we're at it with anatomy and all you think you guys could take a look at this and tell me what you think?

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/sho...22#post1805622

Whoa, I'm kinda confused.
I just checked the threads you started and I realised that you are actually mentoring folks on anatomy.
I don't really wanna be a killjoy and also don't wanna discourage anybody who offers help to noobs but... don't you think...
Never mind.
Let's talk about your drawing.
I think that the most serious problem lies in your working method. I can see that you try to draw things following the well-known "basic sketch - lineart - coloring and shading" way but you seem to fail at the very beginning.
I checked your sketchbook. I checked many of your threads. But I hardly found one single sketch during the creation of which you used a tinyest bit of knowledge you must have already learned from Loomis' books - as you teach from them. You just seem to be satisfied having read his books on how to build up a figure from basic masses, how to sketch the skeletal system, and how to put muscles on that skeleton; and you start your drawings with sketching contours and you fail again and again inevitably. Please don't take it offensive, but for God's sake TRY THE METHOD LOOMIS SHOWS! Just once! It's really worth trying.

Another thing: Tools you use.
Well it's hard to talk about "tools" as you seem to use only one - a hard round brush, with totally black color and ... I can't decide if pressure sensitivity is set to anything - but it doesn't seem to. In my opinion using this tool for skeching isn't really the best idea. I learned it recently as I switched back to pencils for a couple of drawings.
When I create pencil drawings I start with a well-sharpened hard pencil, and I don't press it too much to the paper. This way I can draw thin, bright-grey lines which indicate the form, and then I press it more against the paper, and build up the countour gradually as I get more confident of how it should look like.
Line drawing MUST be a gradual process as no one can draw the right contour line for the first try and drawing it over and over again causes loss of line quality.
What I suggest:
- don't use black color when you start the sketching. Use middle grey or brighter. and then, when you feel that the drawing is good enough to ink, then (and just then) draw ower it with black with LONG SINGLE STROKES.
(here is a video of what I talk about: http://www.dailymotion.com/reiq/vide...orial_creation )
- USE PRESSURE SENSITIVE BRUSHES! It's not an option, it's a must in the proper stage(s) of drawing. Without pressure sensitivity all lines seems to be uniform - and this is what we should avoid. Set pressure sensitivity to opacity or flow or both - which you find easier to use.

That's all.

ps.: When we started this mentoring thingy I commented in your sketchbook, and I haven't get any reactions. When you posted your first drawing I wrote a nice detailed comment on it. No reactions again. Now I comment on your work again since you asked it. I'd be glad if some dialog would form between us but it's really hard if you don't waste a word on my remarks. Just please don't ask for crits if you don't take your time to consider and answer them. Thanks.

[Neondevil]

Whoa, I'm kinda confused.
I just checked the threads you started and I realised that you are actually mentoring folks on anatomy.
I don't really wanna be a killjoy and also don't wanna discourage anybody who offers help to noobs but... don't you think...
Never mind.

Haha I see what you did there. That's cute.


If you want me to critique something just ask although opening all your critiques with passive aggressive comments isn't going to get me on your side.


But hey thanks for helping I'll keep that stuff in mind.

[SAGIR]

Ok, by posting order:

Abichai - First I want to tell you, don't be afraid to try the pose exercise. Worst case scenario - you fail. I promise you'll learn something from the experience. Same goes for commenting on other works. You'll only gain experience if you start doing it. You are among friends and though someone might disagree with you he will definitely won't throw rocks at you for leaving your comment. Now to the perspective exercise:

The first page you attached is a very good exercise and looking at it I can see that you do understand the fundamentals of one point perspective. To make it easier to comment on the second page I did a little paint over with my remarks.


General comment: I know I said that using the ruler is optional, but I strongly recommend you to use it. Your lines are really crooked in some place and though you understand where they need to go, it doesn't show in the final image (No 1). Working with a ruler is more time consuming but It will get a much nicer result (until you've practiced the freehand lines enough) and it will help me to understand your work, since, in some of your mistakes I am not sure if it is due to lack of understanding or just lack of precision.
The middle ground would be to use the ruler for guidelines, and once you have those in place, paint the geometry freehanded.

Pic No 2 - This one is unclear to me. Think it belongs to the russian avant-garde movement from the early twentieth century

pic no 3 - Notice that the two part of the line I overpainted don't actually sit on the same line, this makes it look awkward, plus it look like the bench is getting more narrow at his further end. Also, once again, very not precise work with the lines.

Pic No 4 - The weird line there is really out of place, it looks that you were confused when drawing it since is not parallel to the other lines, not going to the VP and certainly not vertical. Remember: When painting 1PT PERSPECTIVE with rectangular objects, all the lines should belong to one of the above mentioned categories. Repainted it a little just to organize what you wanted to show.

Pic No 5 - The right side of the table is further away from the viewer then the left side and actually looks like it is becoming part of the wall. Also it is a little weird that the windows are so much higher than the table top but maybe you wanted it this way.

Pic No 6 - I think its a little too complicated to paint an arial landscape view as a one point perspective. Especially because the scene usually doesn't have too many parallel lines. However if you did paint a road going into a vanishing point, lines that are parallel to this road should also meet in the same VP. Example - the line that connects all the tree tops.

Pic no 7 - Pretty good work on this one. You just forgot the bottom doorway lines. And again: precision, precision, precision.

[SAGIR]

Neondevil (Persp exrcise) - well done on this one! I see that you know what you are doing... thus far. I have a few little comments on your work.

First, the height of the horizon (viewer's eyes). I would think that it is logical to position the viewer as if he is standing on the street, but since you painted the whole doorpost (including the upper line - dunno how it's called in English) below the horizon line - you made the viewer fly above ground level. This is weird but possible, but then, to add to the confusion, you added a little person standing on the ground with his head at the horizon level. So, either that guy is really tall or the doors are really low. I hope I managed to explain what I mean.

Second, the little horizontal line showing through the door to the right. I understand that this is to separate the floor from the wall. If you continue it to the left, you'll find that it is higher than the exterior corner of the building, that can't be. In fact, considering the wall's thickness it supposed to be a little lower then that corner.

Third and final, the clouds. Since you have decided to indicate some clouds, be aware that those are, in fact objects spread on a surface parallel to the ground (sky), that means that they also should get smaller the closer they are painted to the horizon line. Currently it looks like a flat wallpaper.

[SAGIR]

Neondevil - Since Novbert was kind enough to cover the technique realted issues (some great points there) I will comment on the product itself. I will refer to the last image on your thread.

Generally speaking, it looks like she's getting a tattoo while her husband is holding her hand. The mean expression on the man's face is the only thing to indicate otherwise.

Considering that she is only held by one hand and that she doesn't want to get drilled. It would be logical for her to retreat backwards and bend in to protect her torso as much as possible, instead of pushing it forward. Also her right hand is awkwardly positioned, even if it's somehow tied (like in the initial sketch) she would still, instinctively try to pull it closer to her for protection.

Anatomy wise, this is quite a cartoony style - since the lines are to angular and many details are left out (once again no joints on the fingers). The woman's repainted face is a good start if you want to go more realistic.

I have to say that this is one big woman, just as big as the bad guys. Her body is really masculine (except for the breasts) and her shoulders are huge. I think this scene would benefit from a slimmer and more fragile feminine figure.

There are many anatomical issues but it will all improve the more you study and practice. Keep on doing it.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - That's awesome that you pay attention to details and analyze the pose like you did with my painting. I find that it is in learning the little details lies the big understanding. (it sounds like a phrase from karate kid )

Have you ever watched distance jumping in the olympics? During that jump there's a point when the athlete throws his torso forward (with limbs stretched backwards) to get a few more centimeters. This is what I had in mind with this pose. I realize it might be too much for only jumping off the bed, but you can see I was not trying to go realistic but rather make the pose as dynamic as possible. (This rocker is unleashed I'm tellin' ya)

As promised, here are some progress pics. Since I want a really clean look it is very time consuming. Had to go over all the details with the pan tool (this is first time for me practicing this kind of style). Also changed the initial background, added some detail and threw in a startled pet. (Love this cat)
Then moved the created paths to Illustrator to give some depth to the line art.


This is how it looks coming out of the illustrator back to Photoshop for painting. (currently working on it)

[Novbert]

nice update Sagir, thanx for sharing.
about the pic: It's coming along nicely, I'd just made one remark. Using paths to do the linework is the thing I tried only once, and I think I'll never try it again. I found it very time-consuming, and boring, and the results were somehow... lifeless. The beautiest linearts I've ever seen were all drawn with the scratchboard tool of Painter. you can find many tutorials about it, this, and this video tut for example. The only secret is that you should draw the lines pretty much zoomed in (at least at a 100% or even 200% view), and the resolution of the image should be very high (at least 300 dpi). This way your little mistakes can't be seen on the final image and you get an incomparably better line-weight variety.

ps.: I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll post the perspective study and the figure's front view till the end of the week.

[Abichai]

Hi ty for the comments ^^ so i do a new sheet of perspective because this time....I use my rule so I beileve this will be more precise. I try to do room from different point of view with different object in it. I try also t do an outside perspec but I haven't a lot of idea about outside expect a road with building... To the life drawing I don't begin it, but i beleive that is will be done tomorrow... I'm in holidays now I achieve my last exam yesterday ^^ So that's all for this and I love your cray guitarist the last look really good to me with the cat who add an equilibration for the composition..that's what i think ^^ i don't know if it's correct but nice work ^^

[Novbert]

As we're getting kinda workshoppy here - which is very good imho - I decided to encourage you to share your thoughts about my newest figure drawing. You can find it here.

[Abichai]

I look ur WIP 'nd well I think this is a pretty good start. But maybe i'm wrong, i think there is a problem hip/ around the navel.

Nice job, I will follow ur thread ^^

I hope I will be able to show u some anatomi drawing ^^

[SAGIR]

Novbert - Nice start dude, here's what I think:

First of all, it is unclear whether she is trying to stand on her knees or she is supposed to be sitting on her feet (when you look at her left leg she is sitting and when you look at her right she is standing on a knee). I presume you wanted her sitting (since if she was to stand on her knees her bottom has to be much higher) In that case both thighs are too long, especially her right thigh since it is coming towards us. Also, if she is sitting, her whole pelvis should be much lower in relation to her left knee.

Her torso seems to be leaning forward, is that intentional? Usually when sitting like that the head is located above the pelvis and the back is slightly arched.

Her right hip is sticking out a little too much and I think you should detail the knees a little since in that pose you can see a little of the joints.

It is still in progress but looks as if the shoulders and the chest structure are a little wide and masculine for a feminine figure.

The head is definitely little small and the face is waaay too small. Also it looks like you have not yet decided what to do with her right hand. (and where's the fingers man?)

Just my thoughts.

[SAGIR]

Abichai (persp exercise) - Nicely done. This is way better. Now I realize that most of your mistakes where just lack of precision. Some good notes:

It is great that you are trying different locations for VP, often a 'surprising' location of VP can add much interest to the pic.

The picture with 5 doors is great, you added a twist by adding all these doors and made it interesting, very much Esher style. ( if you don't know M.C.Esher, google for him, now.)

Though we don't yet deal with composition, but adding an element on the foreground (close to the viewer), like you did on the third (second from bottom) pic , adds depth to the piece. Good work.

Things to improve:

Some of the elements in your pictures are a little flat. even a picture or a window has frame and thickness, it is a little naive to draw them only with one line. Examples : The picture in the first pic, some doors in the second and the skylight in third (don't try to force the clouds to fit in the window)

If you would like to challenge your self more with that last pic (road and buildings) and add some interest , you might try to paint a larger amount of buildings, make them stand close together so they will partly obscure each other , it will be more difficult.

Finally, please read the my last comment on Neondevil's exercise, about the clouds, it is relevant to you too.

PS - When you post several pics like this time, please add a number on each one to make it easier to comment on them. Keep up the good work.

[SAGIR]

Novbert - thanx for the useful Lineart links. I would sure like to find a less boring and technical method to work with lines. I guess I usually feel confused with the Painter's enormous tool variety. I must add, to Pen tools favor, that once you're done with the boring tracing stage, you have way more control over you lineart (especially using the illustrator) to modify it and change the line widths. Also, if you want it super clean with perfect, geometrical curves, achieving it by freehand is almost impossible.
In most cases, though, I'd just like to be able to draw it free handed like in the tutorial.

Here's how my piece ended up. (Abichai - you are right, the cat is there basically due to compositional considerations)