One Girl's Dream-Enough already

[Genethoq]

To One Girl's Dream:
Enough already. Every damn job post I read has you spewing out the GAG rates or in some other way berating the job poster. Let the administrators decide if a post is in the wrong section, or let the individual artists decide if they want to respond to the posts. This is a small community, and word will spread that posting jobs on CA will only get you slammed by some know it all artist.
Get your nose out of the GAG handbook and into your sketchbook.

Yours sincerely,
Jim Pavelec

[Mirana]

A PM was somehow not appropriate?

Also, OGD hasn't made a post since about the 11th after this discussion. If you're reading posts that old the jobs are probably already filled.

[Genethoq]

A PM was somehow not appropriate?

Also, OGD hasn't made a post since about the 11th after this discussion. If you're reading posts that old the jobs are probably already filled.

What the hell is a PM?

And the post I saw was there yesterday, but it was updated by the poster, so point taken. Nonetheless there seems to be a lot of hostility towards posters from people with what seems like an inordinate amount of time on their hands.

Oh yeah, and buy my new book Wreaking Havoc, in bookstores nationwide next week.

[arttorney]

If you click on her name in the upper left, a pull down menu will give you the option "Send Private Message to One Girls Dream" and you can then send her a Private Message (PM). These can be very helpful for saying stuff to people that doesn't necessarily have to be broadcast. There are probably ways to access this feature in your user control panel too, but then you probably have to remember every character right in the person's name to type into a field.

[J Wilson]

PM is private message.

I think most people generally agreed that One Girl's Dream was a little over zealous about the GAG handbook. I appreciate that the intention was to educate people on what a fair fee range is, as a lot of the jobs were woefully under budgeted for what they expected to get from the artist. I also realize that it is a determination each artist has to make for themselves, and we're better off seeing all job offers, even the ridiculously low ones, in order to keep seeing the more interesting jobs that occassionally pop up.

[Elwell]

Nonetheless there seems to be a lot of hostility towards posters from people with what seems like an inordinate amount of time on their hands.

Oh, the irony...

[Genethoq]

Oh, the irony...

OK. OK. I note the irony. Just something that caught my attention. I'll get back in my little corner and shut the fuck up. And irony right back at ya, Mr. 7000 posts

Buy my damn book anyway.

Jim

[blobs]

Jim, I'll buy ya book if I can quote from the GAG handbook!!!



Oh I lie so poorly!

[Ebony-chan]

I disagree with you here Genethoq I found One girls Dream posts very helpful and she's saying the same thing most of us say and there's even a thread that many employers are suppose to read first before posting jobs here.

However from some of the posts I've seen some of the employers don't read the rule thread first. I don't know how many back-end offers I've seen in the freelance and under 500 forums.

Hell I've even seem a post in the under $500 forum asking for a professional back cover for $25 and asking for one time rights. There's nothing wrong with educating the employers who don't know much about the field their trying to get into and market.


I agreed that One Girl's Dream was a bit over zealous about the GAG handbook. But it's nice to know that there are people out there willing to help and educate people.

[Genethoq]

Jim, I'll buy ya book if I can quote from the GAG handbook!!!



Oh I lie so poorly!

If you buy my book you may quote from whatever source you like. I may even buy the how to draw Undead with your stuff in it and we can quote GAG guidelines back and forth to each other.

Jim

[blobs]

If you buy my book you may quote from whatever source you like. I may even buy the how to draw Undead with your stuff in it and we can quote GAG guidelines back and forth to each other.

Jim

GAG this and GAG that!

I'll swap ya, book for book... Instead of the usual sex for money

[Genethoq]

GAG this and GAG that!

I'll swap ya, book for book... Instead of the usual sex for money

No sex for money. What fun is that? If it wasn't for sex for money I'd be living out on the streets.

[blobs]

No sex for money. What fun is that? If it wasn't for sex for money I'd be living out on the streets.

Dang! Even more reason to buy your books! If you have that kind of content within those pages I'm more than willing to pay!
lol.. seriously I already have Hell Beasts on order, you're a lucky man

[waronmars]

The difference is Elwells 7k posts actually have alot to do with art...

[Genethoq]

The difference is Elwells 7k posts actually have alot to do with art...

Boy this is a hostile community. I thought I was the only one. Oh well, then I can continue my ways with a well placed "Go fuck yourself" mate.

I'm sure that Mr. Elwell is a grown man and can speak for himself if he wants, but I'm sure that he knows I was just joking with him and didn't feel the need.

Having said this, and after thanking blobs, I am truly going back into the shadows of this site. Peace out, bitches.

Jim

[Genethoq]

Dang! Even more reason to buy your books! If you have that kind of content within those pages I'm more than willing to pay!
lol.. seriously I already have Hell Beasts on order, you're a lucky man

Ah, you are a kind man. I take back everything bad I ever said about the Brits (except that one thing, whcih I will take with me to the grave).

Thanks,

Jim

[blobs]

I get the feeling the longer you hang around here, the more likely that grave is gonna rush you in

Us Brits are ok... for a tribe of neanderthal, pub crawling yobs

[Mirana]

Uh, no. Please do not start assuming things. Not a good thing to do. I've had zero experience with Marvel and DC. They wouldn't give me the time of day. If I were them I wouldn't either.

The vast majority of publishers will not allow submissions for actual projects. Many do, most don't. Here is a not so updated listing...

I didn't assume...I was asking a question (note the "?").

I LOLed at the link list (which I've never seen before, thanks!). I've spoken to the EiCs of two of the publishers on the "do not accept" list and they've asked me for submissions. I think the distinction here is UNSOLICTED submissions as opposed to not accepting original ideas at all, and that's something I could agree to.

The list of accepting publishers is longer than the not-accepting....? Am I missing something in your point?

[One Girl's Dream]

Wow. Everyone has made all the points that needed to be touched upon, on both sides of various issues, that there is nothing for us to say... or, at least nothing that might be important, anyway.

Earlier today, I went to pick up my son from school, and stopped by a local mom and pop's style restaurant that I frequent on occasion (the best sausage burritos). It was about 100degrees outside, and the inside was no better, considering they had an open stove in the kitchen which was about 3 feet from the counter. In fact it was so hot, I had to ask the counter clerk, "Do you have an air conditioner?" Just that moment, a guy in a gray t-shirt came up behind me and handed the lady behind the counter a stack of trays, and remarked, "I don't think we've ever had air-conditioning here." My first reaction was to raise by eyebrows in surprise and ask him, "Oh! You work here?" You see, he wasn't wearing the 'uniform' red-apron that all the other employees were wearing, and apparently, he was having lunch as I came in on one of the very tables that he just bussed, so I assumed he was a customer. Perhaps he was the owner's son. But anyway, my point was his answer to my question, which was: "No, I just come here and help out once in a while." So, gullible me says to him, "Oh really?" fully believing that it could be true, and of course, he was being sarcastic. (Leave it to someone in the art & entertainment industry to take comments like that seriously.) He must have had sympathy for my sudden heat-induced delirium, because he set things right by saying, "Are you kidding? I would never do any work for free." And, you know what? He was right. I mean, you have to really love hamburgers to spend your free time cleaning up messy trays in an un-airconditioned restaurant when it's 100degrees outside and inside. Or maybe, he was the owner's son, and he had a personal interest in working so hard on his free time.

So here's my point. I have come to the conclusion that artists don't have much "street smarts", and usually make horrible business persons, and investing time in a project is kind of like investing your money in stocks. We think it's great that there are resources, such as the Graphic Artists Guild, who have collected information from legal as well as financial professionals, on how to conduct business, that is relatively low-in-cost to obtain access to, compared to a real-life lawyer or accountant or agent. It's a wonderful thing that GAG does make knowledge so accessible - it can be quite empowering when in the right hands.

[Matt_Stevens]

I LOLed at the link list (which I've never seen before, thanks!). I've spoken to the EiCs of two of the publishers on the "do not accept" list and they've asked me for submissions. I think the distinction here is UNSOLICTED submissions as opposed to not accepting original ideas at all, and that's something I could agree to.

The list of accepting publishers is longer than the not-accepting....? Am I missing something in your point?

What you are missing is that most of good publishers are saying NO. There are plenty of publishers that cannot even get their books into most comic shops that will say yes, but so what? Basically, besides Marvel and DC you have IMAGE, DDP, IDW, Dynamite, Virgin and a few others that have shelf space in most shops. Of those, only Image takes submissions for proposals. All of the rest do not at this point. Most independent publishers are moving to licensed properties. Nothing NEW and original. It's a terrible shame.

Also, many of the small publishers that accept submissions are insane with what they want. They want to own your property. They want to pay you nothing for a page rate and they want to keep all the profits.

I've spent the last year living this situation. It's insane. But it is not impossible to break into the industry if you have the right combination of talent and drive.

[Mirana]

What you are missing is that most of good publishers are saying NO. There are plenty of publishers that cannot even get their books into most comic shops that will say yes, but so what?

Okay, except a lot of "good" publishers are on the "accept" list you linked. Do you mean they are saying "no" to your submission ideas?

As I said before, the editors-in-chief I have spoken to are at LARGE companies that you could find in ANY comic store, as well as your local "big box" book store. I've also spoken to an editor from DDP. I personally haven't even heard of Dynamite or Virgin before (though my fiancee has...he's a bit more up on the comic scene than I am ). A friend of mine who has never been published got a deal for an original submission through one of the editors I also know (from the "no" list) and was paid pre-publish ($$$$$) with retained copyright on that work. I've no doubt about smaller publishers trying "work-for-hire" deals on original concepts (lol @ CBC "grand prize") and would personally never work for them in that capacity.

Every experience is different, and there's obviously a distinction between writer and artist. I wouldn't have said anything except that I don't want other people to read this thread and assume your "truth" is it for every situation. Especially when I've never run into that myself (not that it doesn't exist, mind you).

[geckochan]

It's good to bring up counterpoints, as things aren't ever linear. For those perhaps a bit less connected than you Mirana, I'd say the reality is somewhere between the two situations you and Matt have presented. A good balance is to be realistic but not fatalistic ^_^ And you make a good point that it's always worth talking to people about the possibility of looking at your work, because the worst they can do is say no (although I'd imagine this is a bit easier to do if you're able to frequent conventions in the US and meet people in person?)

[Matt_Stevens]

Mirana, congrats to your friend, but it sounds like he/she had an in. That is SO impostant. It's all who you know. Or who your friends know.

I myself have only submitted two self created projects to two companies. What I have been reporting is what I have seen with others and how frustrating it is for them as they receive word from one publisher after another that they will not look at submissions. DDP flat out refuses, unless you get very lucky and know someone. They won't talk to me. Won't even consider it. Oh well.

Dynamite and Virgin are large inde publishers. Dynamite specializes in licensed properties and pretty much avoids anything original for fear of high risk. Virgin has their own niche, which is creating comic books in collaboration with known directors, actors, etc.

And also, as I stated, that list is out of date. Many of the good publishers that are on it NO LONGER accept submissions. If you try they will not look at it. DARK HORSE is still on it, but they are known for having a backlog that goes back more than six months. They just don't look at them.

I could write specifics on each publisher, but I don't want to spend an hour at this keyboard. Just suffice to say it's hard out there.

Me, I have been lucky. I have had two rejections from Image, but I also have a project now in the works with another publisher (not legally allowed to say yet. they have the eight to announce it and will when we are ready) and some very good prospects.

But my entire point in this thread was that it can be near impossible for any unknown writer to afford to pay standard page rates. We've gone a little off track here.


Geckochan, if I were fatalistic, I'd have killed myself long ago.

[geckochan]

lol!
I appreciate your point, and I wouldn't want all of the writers who can only offer a backend deal to stop looking, as I've found some good collaborators online. I guess the main point is just that we all want an atmosphere on the job boards that treats the work that artists do with respect. This does not exclude back-end offers, it's just about the attitude of the person offering it ^_^
(And I'm not surprised to hear you've had something picked up, as your preview art is looking gorgeous! Good luck, and looking forward to hearing more when it's announced ^^)

[Mirana]

Although I'd imagine this is a bit easier to do if you're able to frequent conventions in the US and meet people in person?

I have to say that if one is serious about getting into comics, then it is very much worth the investment to work up a portfolio and/or a few submission ideas and make the trip to SDComic Con (or NYComic Con & Wizard World Chicago? Skip MegaCon...nothing there). I've only been to SDCC and Mega-Con in a working capacity (I work for a dealer), but I was blown away by the amount of publishers there who were willing to bite the hated task of "reviewing portfolios" in the ass. My advice is to respect the times they set aside for reviews, make it quick but awesome (do. not. ramble.), and always have business cards (ones that represent your work!) and copies of material if they ask for it. I've even done postcards before, and the editor loved that he had a big representation of the art and could make notes on it.

Mirana, congrats to your friend, but it sounds like he/she had an in. That is SO impostant. It's all who you know. Or who your friends know.

Nope. They knew no one in comics at all and weren't even trying to get in. The EiC contacted the artist directly based on an illustration he'd seen and wanted to know if they did sequentials. I realize this scenario is not for everyone...I was trying to make a point about knowing what the rates and rights were for one of the large publishers on the "do not accept" list.

If we want to talk people I know who now work in the industry, I know many...I sorta went to school for sequential art. But based on what I've seen at cons, you don't need that background to get in. Most people don't have that and editors don't ask. You can know a ton of people, but if your idea sucks nobody is going to buy it.

And also, as I stated, that list is out of date.

You did say that, but the "last updated" time stamp is for April 30th, 2008. If there is something out-of-date that you know of, the dude does ask to be dropped a line. Also, he has a whole bolded section at the top about Dark Horse New Recruits being on for '08 (which I find amazing...don't they have ridculously long lead times on that contest?). The DH site says "New Recruits is reinstated for 2008. Read the rules, send us your projects and you could be the next big thing!" Guess it's time to send one of your other projects in, eh?

G'Luck with this project that's going well for you. You will have to keep up updated.

[Matt_Stevens]

The New Recruits thing is a great way to get seen. I'm glad to see it is being used again. The odds are long though, since so many people will apply.

They want ten pages and that is tough. Image will accept five. Getting ten from an artist is very very difficult due to time constraints. One project I have, the vampire project, has 7 full painted pages, a painted concept cover, a painted and completed cover and some nice concept art. To get three more full completed pages from the artists would be asking a LOT of them.

By the way, DH also wants signatures from all parties, writer, artist, colorist, even the letterer! That is a huge issue for me on some projects where I am working with people from all over the world. I'll have to mail the bloody submission form to one person, then get it back and mail it to another etc. That will take at least two months on one of my projects. Sounds their legal department is flat out terrified of getting hit with a lawsuit. That threat is what keeps many from accepting submissions now. They just don't want the hassle and would rather license toys and games for their releases in stead. Less risk. Less hassle.

But no originality.

[J Wilson]

The New Recruits thing is a great way to get seen. I'm glad to see it is being used again. The odds are long though, since so many people will apply.

They want ten pages and that is tough. Image will accept five. Getting ten from an artist is very very difficult due to time constraints. One project I have, the vampire project, has 7 full painted pages, a painted concept cover, a painted and completed cover and some nice concept art. To get three more full completed pages from the artists would be asking a LOT of them.

By the way, DH also wants signatures from all parties, writer, artist, colorist, even the letterer! That is a huge issue for me on some projects where I am working with people from all over the world. I'll have to mail the bloody submission form to one person, then get it back and mail it to another etc. That will take at least two months on one of my projects. Sounds their legal department is flat out terrified of getting hit with a lawsuit. That threat is what keeps many from accepting submissions now. They just don't want the hassle and would rather license toys and games for their releases in stead. Less risk. Less hassle.

But no originality.

Ouch, ten pages is a TON. I'm not sure why their requirements are so high, most can see what they need to see in 3 or 5, unless they are looking for consistancy. Maybe a lot of artists can put in the effort to make three GREAT pages, but lose steam over 5? I haven't tried sequencials in a loooong time so I don't know.

I can understand wanting all of those signatures. We hear of people screwing over the artists ALL the time. Many people have no idea how copyrights work, and assume that just because the art is based on their story, that the art is THEIRS. I'm sure they must have run into situations where work was used without permission because a form of payment was never agreed upon. Or maybe they need reassurrance that everyone that worked on the submission is ready to put in the time if it gets accepted. For as disorganized as submissions seem on our end, I'm sure it's a nightmare from THEIR end. Most of the time though, they will accept a scan of a signature. Have them print out the form and then sign it and scan, and email it back to you. Possibly still have them email you the forms for you to hold on to in case they want to see the original signatures later. I doubt all the signatures have to appear on the same copy of the contract/submission.

[Mirana]

I doubt all the signatures have to appear on the same copy of the contract/submission.

As I remember it, the form is likely a "If we look at your idea about Zombie-Vampires and reject it...then we go and make a book about Zombie-Vampires, you agree we didn't steal your incredibly broad 'idea.'" Also likely there's jargon in there about "you didn't steal anybody's copyright. It's all your work...blahblah. It's never been published..." Can't really make a writer/artist/whatever sign a contract saying "I will absolutely be available to work on it!" Not when the last recruitment took like TWO YRS to get through everything.

I agree that usually they'll accept multiple sub forms (one from each member).

[black_fish]

Okay, except a lot of "good" publishers are on the "accept" list you linked. Do you mean they are saying "no" to your submission ideas?

As I said before, the editors-in-chief I have spoken to are at LARGE companies that you could find in ANY comic store, as well as your local "big box" book store. I've also spoken to an editor from DDP. I personally haven't even heard of Dynamite or Virgin before (though my fiancee has...he's a bit more up on the comic scene than I am ). A friend of mine who has never been published got a deal for an original submission through one of the editors I also know (from the "no" list) and was paid pre-publish ($$$$$) with retained copyright on that work. I've no doubt about smaller publishers trying "work-for-hire" deals on original concepts (lol @ CBC "grand prize") and would personally never work for them in that capacity.

Every experience is different, and there's obviously a distinction between writer and artist. I wouldn't have said anything except that I don't want other people to read this thread and assume your "truth" is it for every situation. Especially when I've never run into that myself (not that it doesn't exist, mind you).

You are pretty funny. You seem to know so much about the industry, and have sooo many publishers asking for submissions, let me tell you that if you get those offers you should take them, because they are unheard of.
What Matt Stevens said is right (maybe he exaggerates a bit here and there) and my experience is the same. I have never heard of publishers paying advances and then granting full copyright (where would those people make money?). The only way to make money upfront from a publisher is work for hire, period (except Marvel and DC in some way).
The publishers I have dealt with are: Devil's Due, Image, Top Cow, Silent Devil, Boom, Ape, Catastrophic comics, Studio 407, and i know pretty well how things are at Vertigo, Slave Labor and IDW. That covers quite a bit of the Indie publishers out there.
I'd love to know where you (or your friends) got those juicy deals (and I'm sure at GAG rates ).

[black_fish]

Wow. Everyone has made all the points that needed to be touched upon, on both sides of various issues, that there is nothing for us to say... or, at least nothing that might be important, anyway.

Earlier today, I went to pick up my son from school, and stopped by a local mom and pop's style restaurant that I frequent on occasion (the best sausage burritos). It was about 100degrees outside, and the inside was no better, considering they had an open stove in the kitchen which was about 3 feet from the counter. In fact it was so hot, I had to ask the counter clerk, "Do you have an air conditioner?" Just that moment, a guy in a gray t-shirt came up behind me and handed the lady behind the counter a stack of trays, and remarked, "I don't think we've ever had air-conditioning here." My first reaction was to raise by eyebrows in surprise and ask him, "Oh! You work here?" You see, he wasn't wearing the 'uniform' red-apron that all the other employees were wearing, and apparently, he was having lunch as I came in on one of the very tables that he just bussed, so I assumed he was a customer. Perhaps he was the owner's son. But anyway, my point was his answer to my question, which was: "No, I just come here and help out once in a while." So, gullible me says to him, "Oh really?" fully believing that it could be true, and of course, he was being sarcastic. (Leave it to someone in the art & entertainment industry to take comments like that seriously.) He must have had sympathy for my sudden heat-induced delirium, because he set things right by saying, "Are you kidding? I would never do any work for free." And, you know what? He was right. I mean, you have to really love hamburgers to spend your free time cleaning up messy trays in an un-airconditioned restaurant when it's 100degrees outside and inside. Or maybe, he was the owner's son, and he had a personal interest in working so hard on his free time.

So here's my point. I have come to the conclusion that artists don't have much "street smarts", and usually make horrible business persons, and investing time in a project is kind of like investing your money in stocks. We think it's great that there are resources, such as the Graphic Artists Guild, who have collected information from legal as well as financial professionals, on how to conduct business, that is relatively low-in-cost to obtain access to, compared to a real-life lawyer or accountant or agent. It's a wonderful thing that GAG does make knowledge so accessible - it can be quite empowering when in the right hands.

Fortunately a lot of people ignore your advices.