Descartes may have been right...

[JJ McKool]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/sc...382&ei=5087%0A

It could be the weirdest and most embarrassing prediction in the history of cosmology, if not science.

If true, it would mean that you yourself reading this article are more likely to be some momentary fluctuation in a field of matter and energy out in space than a person with a real past born through billions of years of evolution in an orderly star-spangled cosmos. Your memories and the world you think you see around you are illusions.

This bizarre picture is the outcome of a recent series of calculations that take some of the bedrock theories and discoveries of modern cosmology to the limit. Nobody in the field believes that this is the way things really work, however. And so in the last couple of years there has been a growing stream of debate and dueling papers, replete with references to such esoteric subjects as reincarnation, multiple universes and even the death of spacetime, as cosmologists try to square the predictions of their cherished theories with their convictions that we and the universe are real. The basic problem is that across the eons of time, the standard theories suggest, the universe can recur over and over again in an endless cycle of big bangs, but it’s hard for nature to make a whole universe. It’s much easier to make fragments of one, like planets, yourself maybe in a spacesuit or even — in the most absurd and troubling example — a naked brain floating in space. Nature tends to do what is easiest, from the standpoint of energy and probability. And so these fragments — in particular the brains — would appear far more frequently than real full-fledged universes, or than us. Or they might be us.

[Costau D]

if the world is an illusion from my perspective. Does this mean you are apart of my own mind, trying to convince itself that it isn't real as it percieves to be? And, that bad and good are only perceptions gathered by my own morals and logic as I percieve them to be? So if I feel, and can justify that walking aorund naked isnt against the law of my own and I didnt percieve people to be close minded and rightous... They wouldn't mind? In actuality that would be tough to convince myself of it because even rightnow i'm doubting myself *head explodes*

[Jasonwclark]

This is the sort of thing that happens, when Scientists dismiss seminal figures like Aristotle or the Pre-Socratics as antiquated novelties.... or choose to ignore Medieval or Enlightenment thinkers as irrelevant, simply because the language seems so dated and the maps are so bizzare. And then we wonder why the same sort of metaphorical language still keeps cropping up, whenever we try to replace the old metaphors that we just got rid of. There's only so many ways to explain what's happening without reference to the old tropes and schema. The poetry just needs to catch up with new evidence and then things will settle back down again.

[S.C. Watson]

Theoretically, it's interesting and a fun brain tease (pardon the pun).

However, from a practical, day to day standpoint, it's hogwash. I need food.

~Oreg.

[IvkeBG]

Sure thing none of this is real. There is no "I" in megaverse

Why is the brain theory in the article mentioned in a negative context? Especially when good or bad are purely human constructs and have no cosmic significance. Besides, being a free floating consciousness sounds kinda nice, like chilling on a sofa without the necessity to sustain yourself with food and sleep. Ever . And you also wouldn't be bored, because you would never be aware of any other kind of existence which could be more interesting. You would just exist and observe, no emotions, no sensations, a state of nirvana.

Maybe this universe is one of the 'weird' universes, and there exists infinity of 'truly' ordered universes. Humans are always pretentious to assume that our own 'existence' is as best as it gets. Nothing is impossible, depends just how probable it is.

And now my head explodes as well (but only in the 50% of universes)

[•Lindsay•]

So they made up something that's impossible to observe, and impossible to interact with, and they wrote 3 pages about it?

[Ilaekae]

Don't complain. It keeps them out of trouble and far away from us...

[Maizani]

And then we wonder why the same sort of metaphorical language still keeps cropping up, whenever we try to replace the old metaphors that we just got rid of. There's only so many ways to explain what's happening without reference to the old tropes and schema

good point.
gee, if everything we percieve is an illusion, then reality must be some pretty heavy shit.
anyways, doesn't the existence of an illusion means it's a part of reality?

[Dizon]

wuzzah????

[enrigo]

This sounds like some Buddhism concepts, but the only difference is this one is what would be regarded as something not worth knowing. It doesn't seem to benefit anyone except for being another "brain tease" idea.

[Seedling]

I still have to get up in the morning and go to work.

[Gloominati]

I still have to get up in the morning and go to work.

yeah that is exacly the point why this entire discussion is really really really point-/senseless. Even if these theories might be prooven right it wouldn't change ANYTHING at all, so why matter?

On the other hand it's quite interessting that the world we live in actually IS some kind of simulation. Each and every Impulse our body registers (through our eyes, ears, skin (feeling and stuff )) is "made" out of electromagnetic energy. It's just our body that sees the color red as "red", there is actually no single reason why we don't see red as "blue". It's the same with EVERY impulse we are surrounded by every day. So in my oppinion it's quite certain that the world we see/feel/hear is not the wolrd we actually live in. Just a huge simulation, it's kinda naive to not believe this^^

Still: if anybody is able to proove these theories one day and and able to tell that we actually live in a world completely diffrent from what we expected, it wouldn't change anything for us.

[archipelago]

yeah that is exacly the point why this entire discussion is really really really point-/senseless. Even if these theories might be prooven right it wouldn't change ANYTHING at all, so why matter?

On the other hand it's quite interessting that the world we live in actually IS some kind of simulation. Each and every Impulse our body registers (through our eyes, ears, skin (feeling and stuff )) is "made" out of electromagnetic energy. It's just our body that sees the color red as "red", there is actually no single reason why we don't see red as "blue". It's the same with EVERY impulse we are surrounded by every day. So in my oppinion it's quite certain that the world we see/feel/hear is not the wolrd we actually live in. Just a huge simulation, it's kinda naive to not believe this^^

Still: if anybody is able to proove these theories one day and and able to tell that we actually live in a world completely diffrent from what we expected, it wouldn't change anything for us.

Think about how much we have progressed in simulating during the past couple of decades, then think about how much we will have progressed in a hundred thousand years...! who is to say it hasnt been done before and we are the simulation?

the maaaaatriiiiiiix!!

[s.ketch]

yeah that is exacly the point why this entire discussion is really really really point-/senseless. Even if these theories might be prooven right it wouldn't change ANYTHING at all, so why matter?

In that context, why does knowing or believing in anything matter? No matter what religion or lack there of one claims they still have to wake up every morning and go make a living. However, people argue all the time over what is "right" and what is "truth." Here on these forums, there have been possibly hundreds or threads over the years where people argue to the death over fact and fiction. Then the next day those very people woke up in a world where it didn't matter. Of course those of science felt a bit of comfort in that they could observe, calculate, and prove their beliefs within the current knowledge of man.

But still the question remains, why? Does any of it really matter when we all must try to make it in the world? There is obviously an urge in some people to feel satisfied with their outlook on reality. Its all a question of "What if." Its the very same question that had made the world what it is today. What if we could fly, What if we could walk on the moon, What if we could cure that. We as a species constantly push the limits of ourselves farther and farther, in hopes that one day we may wake up from our nightmare of living monotony. It is a hope that we, and future generations, can inhabit a world of infinite possibilities and never have to worry about the problems of yesterday. It is hope that drives us to wonder and question and debate about these petty things that we could obviously live without. But who wants to live in a life without hope?

[JJ McKool]

This sounds like some Buddhism concepts, but the only difference is this one is what would be regarded as something not worth knowing. It doesn't seem to benefit anyone except for being another "brain tease" idea.

Unless of course it means that existence is within a very small timeframe. Meaning, it might be worth it to try and investigate this, so the human race and Universe as a whole don't just pop out of existence with no trace.

[JJ McKool]

yeah that is exacly the point why this entire discussion is really really really point-/senseless. Even if these theories might be prooven right it wouldn't change ANYTHING at all, so why matter?

I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am.

Even if it equates to nothing, it's still important to think about these matters, they may have no effect in themselves, but it stimulates the imagination and problem-solving part of the noggin for other endeavours. That and I'm pretty sure it's the end of the world when an artist can call someone "just a dreamer,"

[Gloominati]

hehe yeah I should have said: theoretically or in fact nothing would change at all, but practically I must say that I would not like living on this planet as soon as somebody announces that we are living a horrible lie in form of a simulation or that it has been found out that christian religion is the only one thats right because "god" has been found. JEEEZ I don't want to see the hell that would break loose if things like that came true

[corky13]

it is quite interesting how science and esotherical concepts are closing in on each other. This stuff , Quantum Theory , "dark matter" and all that stuff. Everything seems to be possible and science is just another (religious) way to interpret what we see

[Favila]

cogito ergo sum

I know that I do exist. I don't really know if this is my real body or whatever, but I do exist. I'm sure of that. I don't know if all of you exist or are part of my imagination or some simulation like The Matrix, however I know that I'm real, at least my mind is real, because if it wasn't, it couldn't go through an illusion anyway.

Some question that I always end asking myself when I think about such things (yes, I think about these topics, a lot) is: Are computer programs a form of life? Hell, I might be a computer program myself. Anyway, my existence is a fact.