[Archived Class 1] Week Four - Principles of Design

[Gundersen]

Just remember when you read about castle that you decide what kind of style you want to go for.

There are tons of diffrent castles.
- Celtic castles
- Scottish castles
- Medieval castles
- Viking "castles" (Rohan is based on this)
- Chinese temple design
- Middle eastern castles

There are alot of diffrent styles, so it depends on the landscape you are painting what kind of castle you should design. If you put it in a desert environment you need to look into why castles work in a desert. And why a castle can work up in cold scotland aswell.

This i guess is about makeing your painting beliveable to the viewer, cause if you would place a concrete/mud castle in scotland it would be strange. Or build something out of stones in norway, or make it out of wood in a desert....

Be carefull about it hehehe

[Gundersen]

Id thought id put togheter some ref photos i have taken myself.

First a couple from Paris:



Then some from around Scotland



All these photos are taken from me, so i am not stealing from anyone ehhe. Hope this can inspire some people that havent visited these places and dont have access to libraries to look at castle design

[Gundersen]

Here is step 1 of my design. Have done several pages of sketches, and tested some sketchup model, before i today decided on going on this perspective. The design atm is pretty EVIL, I plan to put a templar or similar in the front to represent the contrast between the evil castle and the nice guy. The castle will be lit by a sun from the right side of the image... I know its hard to have an evil castle during daylight, but its gonna be an interesting challenge

Gonna keep working on the design as soon as i get painted up the basic shapes and details..

[D.Labruyere]

hey guys, off to a late start. Was away all week giving me little to no time to paint

Well, I've already made a start on the castle, watching the things as good as possible we have done past weeks. Also I decided to work with a bit new approach I uselly don't do, so I hope this works.

Instead of starting with an actual shape in my mind I just painted darks and lights untill I had something interesting and started shaping that. I've now started putting in the first colors. I still have to place the castle in perspective though, and I don't know if it was the most handy move to wait for that untill now... ah well we will see.

So here are the first steps of zu painting:

[Gundersen]

D.Labruyere its looking realy cool atm man! But i am not sure if the approach you have used made sense for you, Cause even if you blocked in black and white first fast to get shadows and light, it doesnt seem like you have used any of the elements you blocked in ... hehehe

BUT the painting looks cool, so dont worry about that at all. Keep going on it! Remember all the points of the previous weeks!

[Form]

jodali | post #21

cool image - nice strong shapes. I think the parrallel lines creating that frame for the central action are a good example of emphasis. Scale or proportion can be seen beautifully with the monolithic structure in the background travelling up out of frame, and there is repetition in the foreground rocks and trees as well as the canvas/leather sails on the structures.

As far as balance, there is certainly more emphasis on the right hand side, but i wouldnt say it is out of balance, as there is a large area on the left which attracts less of our attention, and a smaller, but more eye catching area on the right to balance it out. also, the large building on the right stops that open sky from being too light and letting our eyes sweep off the page.

gundersen | post #22:

cool improvements man. The green is subtle, but does attract the eye more now. Do you think your image is balanced? A great deal of your shapes are vertical which makes anything that breaks that pattern draw the eye strongly. Im concerned that without some shapes coming in at angles, our eyes are tempted to fall off the top and bottom of the canvas (especially on a scrolling web page). Also, the shape of the crystal sort of 'fits' into the canyon gap, which is just slightly causing confusion with its place in relative space. (or at least, breaking the illusion somewhat).

earendil | post #24:

great observations - great to see you so excited about examining artworks its mind boggling with a piece like this when they seem to be doing everything at once... cheers

post #25

cool changes here too... im wondering why you left the end of the fence off, and whether it would be better to continue it through the tree? oops gotta run... rest tomorrow!

[Earendil]

Gundersen thank you so much for those refs!!! Watch out for those verticals in your thumbs. The whole castle looks like it's tipped over to the left.

EDIT: THat's really cool you got to visit those places too I'm jealous!

jodali | post #21

earendil | post #24:

great observations - great to see you so excited about examining artworks its mind boggling with a piece like this when they seem to be doing everything at once... cheers

I am QUITE boggled. pld:

[/B]
post #25

cool changes here too... im wondering why you left the end of the fence off, and whether it would be better to continue it through the tree? oops gotta run... rest tomorrow!

I honestly cannot remember much about the thought process other than "echo the tree! ECHO THE TREEEEEEE!"

I might try D. Labruyere's method as well, see what I come up with. I think I'm going to explore the design of the castle in the 2nd and 4th thumbnails.

Also, D. Labruyere, this piece has a lot of great depth to it already! Can't wait to see how it develops!

[Gundersen]

Thanks for comments Earendil, i can totaly see the castle almost tipping over, will get to work on that

I just had such a cool experience that i need to tell about it .. I opened the book "Concept Design 2" just to have a look since i was bored and needed some inspiration. Last time i looked in it i didnt find it to interesting, it was ok but not the best. This time was a AHA experience. I just started to notice all the details, how people do stuff, how they make it work. It was such a great book and i realy got stuck in it looking at great artist how they make concept design... Form you have opened my eyes and mind

[Agustin Poratti]

gundersen i honestly think one can create a new style for a castle, i mean, i dont really have to choose among the existent styles, but i can inspire from them to create my own style....
nice refs.
cheers

[chaosrocks]

I got distracted by the cover of the times Magazine this morning
did a "warm up" speed paint


I''l get to castles in A minute.... I need more coffee.
Sometimes I think try ing to make somethink work in the wrong environment is one of the best ways to work up something innovative. rather than merely making another version of Sleeping Beauty's castle. and One of the joys of making it up is that bythe timeyou figure out how tha waste disposal sytem and the water and power work ans well as accessability and defensibility.... you can really understand how to do it.
If we are drawing a castle for a cool environment.. we can slide on some of that. but if its going into a game and hasto be built it helps to have at least thought about that stuiff

[Gundersen]

gundersen i honestly think one can create a new style for a castle, i mean, i dont really have to choose among the existent styles, but i can inspire from them to create my own style....
nice refs.
cheers

Agustin i think you miss understood me. I didnt mean you had to choose among existent styles. I meant that you have to think what environment you create and STYLIS your structure after that. I just said the names of diffrent styles to inspire people to look at them. So actualy you are saying the same thing in your post

[Gundersen]

Sometimes I think try ing to make somethink work in the wrong environment is one of the best ways to work up something innovative. rather than merely making another version of Sleeping Beauty's castle. and One of the joys of making it up is that bythe timeyou figure out how tha waste disposal sytem and the water and power work ans well as accessability and defensibility.... you can really understand how to do it.
If we are drawing a castle for a cool environment.. we can slide on some of that. but if its going into a game and hasto be built it helps to have at least thought about that stuiff

Nice to see people have opinions on the mather of designing a castle. Again i think its good to look to real life refferences. A castle is normaly built as a strategic defence position. So putting a castle in the middle of a valley is normaly not smart, but putting it up against the side of one valley with only 1 front to attack is more smart.
But since its conceptual art there is possibilities to try new solutions, but they might not work

[daldbaatar]

Hey guys
Well this is my final work. I actually redone the 2nd week's work. This time the mongol warrior in the front is a wounded officer looking for help from another clan's controlled ( occupied ) castle after he survived an ambush or got his squad wiped out. And its obvious that the Lord of the castle isnt there...since the order to open the gate isnt issued. And the number of men in the castle is very few and them bastards are careful about strangers. Now the mario castle is gone hehe.
I spent so much time doing this piece. My schedule is tight in this month so i tried to do it as early as possible.
The Flow advice of Form was very helpful. I think you can see it from this piece too. I considered gundersen's advice on what kind of castle should be in which environment. Well here you go. Try to notice the tiny guards on the gate and some other places. They are the scale--and windows should be the scale too. And guys if u have any advice please feel free to give me. I tried to do something unique here. and i hope i covered everything we learned past 3 weeks.

[Agustin Poratti]

chaos, what you said is very interesting! i'd never thought of that. definitly going to try work that way, at some given point

[Agustin Poratti]

dald, remember to actually post the picture

[daldbaatar]

i did...im sure i did..refresh please

[chaosrocks]

unfortunately. I spend more time thinking than drawing
but it s fun

take that castle in the valley. maybe its there because the river runs through and it uses the river as part of its fortifications, and never has to worry about water supply in seiges
may be it is strategically located where two valleys come together so that the trade routes travel through it.
maybe its is in fact blocking the valley so as to controll the roads
maybe the best farm land is in the valleyt so it needs the protection of the castle.....

I could go on
put your castle where you will... then figure out what its made of and why its there.....

in the words of Tim Gunn "make it work"

crx

[Gundersen]

realy nice dalbaatar, you are out early with your finished piece ... like 5 days before time almost btw before critts LOOKS GREAT

I think you can do more work on it. First of all its very similar in style to the other castle you posted last time. With the mongolian warrior in front .. This time i think he stands out a bit to much, like he is sticked onto the painting, he doesnt blend in with the rest kind off... There is also some black outlines on some part of the castle, makes it look kind of hurried up because of that, maybe you should work on getting those away.

Here is an update on my image, changed canvas size, flipped it and also started to paint it some colour and more depth to it

[Gundersen]

Chaosrock i dont think its mainly about makeing it work, its about makeing your image beliveable...

[daldbaatar]

realy nice dalbaatar, you are out early with your finished piece ... like 5 days before time almost btw before critts LOOKS GREAT

I think you can do more work on it. First of all its very similar in style to the other castle you posted last time. With the mongolian warrior in front .. This time i think he stands out a bit to much, like he is sticked onto the painting, he doesnt blend in with the rest kind off... There is also some black outlines on some part of the castle, makes it look kind of hurried up because of that, maybe you should work on getting those away.

ok will do gundy...and i mentioned i redid my castle didnt i? yeah...i will try to finish it before thursday...peace brother

[chaosrocks]

gundy ,,heheh
nice start. The green square is reading as an out door movie screen dunno why that popped into my head but it did

and by "work" I mean visually... not actually ...silly
I guess you don't watch "Project Runway"

[Gundersen]

hehe no i dont watch that show I never watch TV actualy, if i turn it on its to see a movie... TV shows are nonono for me (except Heroes, PB and Dexter atm) hehe

Yes the green thing looks strange in the image i posted there, i am painting pretty fast atm and developing it fast fast ... The point about the green thing is that this is an evil castle, so it has a green light to it comming from the inside. That "wall" is supposed to be an entrance ... have added stairs to it now

Thanks for comments btw ... I am impressed with how my left side of the castle look ... i keep telling myself someone else must have made that..

[chaosrocks]

I am also painting at warp speed atm.

but thats where I am going with this. I want to lower the POV
and threepoint this up I guess
iono it keeps wanting to be a vertical compositon

[chaosrocks]

the left wall is indeed looking sweet. in a bleached bone kinda way. I find the compositon to have way to little going on on the righthand side. and what is casting that big black rectangular shadow in the foreground. ?
I dunno the distance and the castles are coming together nicely .. but the rest of the space needs love

[Gundersen]

Here is my last update for the day, will get working on it again tomorow

Flipped it back the other way again, havent decided which way i like best, so i try to balance it out both ways. Added some more to the foreground... tried to add some grass ... clearly need to work more on that ... AND also a big overal update on details and so on..

[D.Labruyere]

nice work Gundersen! Watch out with the mountains though, they look a bit disconnected

[Form]

finishing off post #25, Earendil:

yeah so the fence sort of leads my eye into that dead zone there, where it could maybe come through the tree and be an element that leads the eye subtley into the focus? Also, the shape of the lake or water at the bottom still feels inorganic to me, the form doesnt read flat like water should, more like rubber being stretched. It seems to be something a lot of us do subconsciously, putting big flat dark shapes straght across the bottom of the picture frame... anyhow, I do like the rest of your changes

daldbaatar | post #30:

Good observations - i also love the repetition of shapes in different contexts - like the shape of light on the ground echoing the 'simba' rocks (hehe great description by the way!), the tree shapes echoing each other in the background... i also think its fantastic they way the tree shapes are so wiry and thin compared to the solid, albeit crumbling buildings. Subjectively, it adds to the abandoned feeling of the place - that nature has taken over, and it frames the characters very differently than a pristine environment would.

Im not sure i like the lack of emphasis on the figures.. for me they form the most interesting element of the narrative and they seem to be fairly subordinated... judging by the overall level of skill I would assume its an intentional decision, but I find my eyes resting around the architectural elements sort of wondering why they are pulling so much of my attention, when I care more about whats going on with the culties also love the way the culties hoods echo the doorway shape, and the shape of the vaults in the main building

robmorfin | post #35:

One of my all-times - I love Rembrandt's work... this piece has an amazingly understated quality to it - it has that deceptively simple nature that belies a mastery of the artistic principles. Every element balances something else here - the boat balances the detail of the windmill, the patch of light above the path stops the cliff from being too heavy, the value transition between the two bluffs sets the whole depth in perspective, the figures form a triangle with the mill at its apex, and as you identified, that lovely swirling rhythm that winds its way up the hill. Notice even the oddly shaped tree that balances out the small protrusion on the top of the windmill... and how amazing that these masters had only the natural light and their memory to paint in the fleeting twilight hours...

how awesome is the way he has darkened one arm of the windmill so we aren't thrown off the page? Its a good lesson to be learnt in that sometimes when we paint we are tempted to choose a light source, and then mathematically construct every shape of lighting to be perfect according to the laws of physics... it is a reminder that there is always room in painting for gentle poetry

Agustin | post #44:

Ah yeah, such a memorable piece for me. This is a great example of a musical beat... you can follow that trail of spikes with your eye like a trance-bass beat almost... b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b.... and then it slowly fades out... and then those big ones in the background are like the atmospheric crescendo ... and then it fades away over the horizon... great! and the balance... big large simple area balances out small, detailed focal area. I love this guy's work - he is definately going places. And I think he is in his early 20's from memory?

Love the rework on your piece too, i think it adds that same sense of rhythm, and moreso it improves the perception of depth which it was somewhat lacking at the earlier stage. How about balance? Right now, the light value of the sky and trees is VERY dominant for me... again its that thing we all seem to be doing - that staging - where we put that long, dark, foreground streak without variation in depth...

jodali | post #47:

hey cool rework. I think the cloud mass is heavy, and the tilted horizon helps balance that... but maybe that shape needs to be broken up a bit? The silhouette is a big circle, which makes it feel very unnatural. Real tornados and clouds would have a much more assymetrical and random shape than that... i think that solidarity of that mass is breaking the balance because it is crowding that corner and not sharing the space. I think the best way to balance out the piece is to use some foreground elements (since everything now is starting in the mid ground and working back). Also i think the beasts could still be better integrated with the clouds, imagine when a plane comes out of the clouds, the way it pulls them along with it in a vapor trail? Also i like the addition of more snakes, but they feel like they are too rigidly repeated. Inlike fence palings or sections of wall, these are living, animate beings. So their rhythm should be more like a dramatic overture with big sweeping rhythmic lines, especially as snakes! at the moment they look more like a fleet of robosnakes... very orderly I love your first thumbnail by the way. Looks like a big ice shelf with dangerous icy stalactites (sp?)

[chaosrocks]

whimper...
crx

[Form]

daldbaatar | post #49:

I don't know if it needed more repetition? Since the shapes on the left already sort of repeat... conceptually. I think what it needed more of was emphasis... the composition is very symmetrical, and everything is competing for my attention... there is a lot going on and the composition seems to be split 50 50, and I'm not sure what is more important - the blocks/figures or the cracks?

gunderson | post #51:

Arrr, I be livin on an island, arrrr!

rvdtor | post #52:
Yeah, the manta rays give a nice flowy rhythm - sort of how Jodali could use for the snakes in (his? her?) painting. Here in this piece, that bright sky is balanced by the left foreground which is bigger in proportion, and the cross and mantas stop the image from being too tipped to the right. The only thing im not so keen on in this one is the water at the bottom, the way it is close to the canvas edge but it shys away from it. Not so sure about that... and the foreground detail may be a bit 'noisy'...

as for your piece, i think you could look at balance again - you have a focal point of darkness in the light, now you need a slightly less eye drawing patch of light in the dark area to balance that. Look at cicinemos water dragon piece above again for that! Also are those white strokes above and to the left of the figure birds? also you could clarify those mountains by contrasting some blockier forms against the soft clouds - its all about edges there.

chaos | post 59:

the proportion is looking better now.. there is better atmosphere, it is less staged... the vertical rectangle on the left still bugs me, created by shadow shapes... and there seems to be a lack of general unity - things are feeling disconnected from each other... id like you to make some bold decisions and put some big objects in there, overlapping and really messing up the composition. The feeling i get at the moment is that you are being too safe and this is also coming through in the feel of your brushstrokes. Mess mess mess with it

[Form]

earendil | post #60

loving the look of the 4th... work on that one!

gunderson:
Thanks for those refs dude, the 3rd from last is fucking amazing!!! that tower just DOMINATES the town. I bet you could hear the maniacal dictator laughing all the way from down in the seedy tavern

d. lab | post #64

liking the abstraction here, and the colours.... keep working the design and your awareness of the composition!

agustin | post #69:

I guess gundersen was just talking about function vs. form... the importance of believability in a design. Of course you are inventing your own concepts, but there has to be some degree of believability in their context, pr a good justification why there shouldnt be - its all contextual

chaos | post #70:
STOP PAINTING STAGE SETS!!!!! where are you going to fit your castle in here??? I want you to start a new one and steal a composition from a classical master. GO ON DO IT!!!

daldbaatar | post #73:

this is fantastic! the forms read fantastically.. its a very dramatic image. Im really stoked with this! I think you have some perspective niggles - some actual errors, as well as some just 'odd' shapes. Things like windows not getting smaller the higher on the tower they are, the underside of the left section with the flag on it... just some shapes that need tightening. Other than that, you could put some slight colour variation in there... and also the light colour you have chosen feels slightly less warm than it could be. But you are at a stage where you are tweaking, fixing, refining... which is great. Maybe try putting some modification layers over this? you know, multiply layer on 5%, fill with red, things like that. Tweak it with curves... find what works for you. Great! cheers.

gundersen | post #85:

flat foreground shape is unnatural - break it up!! lol! that big valley area is unbalanced... you need to think of vertical balance as well as horizontal. First things first... break up that flat shape, give us some foreground elements, maybe some repeated shapes into the background... at the moment everything but the castle is far too uninteresting. WHIP WHIP!