Flogging the young and innocent.

[Slash]

Nov 30th 2007: UPDATED! There's been some changes! Jburrke couldn't handle the pressure, so he had to jump out. We've got a new mentee, FRISO. We've also got a new co-mentor, Jessibean. We have room for ONE MORE MENTEE! Send me a PM if you're interested!




So, i've sort of agreed to mentor Aveh and Jburrke.

We're starting out with a trial period, because i've got no teaching experience, and secondly to see if these young gentlemen are dedicated enough for me to spend time on them.

So.. The first lesson we're gonna focus on in this thread is one about values. I've given you both a reference image, and i told you to paint it, and focus on the values.

Now post your results. Aveh, i know you're done, and Jburrke, you have roughly 10 hours to go.


I also want both of you to post a little about what you think are your weaknesses, what you think are your strenghts, and what you think you need to work on the most. For every assignment you post, i expect you both to give an in-depth crit on each other's piece. In fact, i think you should do this before i crit you, so your crits doesn't end up echoing mine.

I also want you to post every exercise in your sketchbook, so that its open to crits from everyone. Because i'm not gonna have all the answers, and the more scrutiny your pieces are under, the better.

I also want you to draw something from posemaniacs EVERY day. two pieces, one where you spend 2 minutes, and one where you spend 20. No longer, no shorter. If you want to do more, feel free. This is an exercise in getting into the habit of drawing every day, and also to help you get used to drawing something you might not want to do. (because if you're gonna be an artist you're gonna have to draw even when you dont feel like it, and things you dont like.)
Put a date mark on your sketches, and post them in here every day.

[Ilaekae]

Damn...

Saw the title and thought there'd be some nubile cupcakes in here with whips and chains and rubber PJs...



You wouldn't hide sumpin' like that from me, would you, you can of reindeer hash?

[Slash]

Of course i wouldn't illy, you can have them when I'm done. Hope you like sloppy seconds!

[JBuRRkE]

heres my value assignment..

weaknesses - perspective, anatomy, facial structure

strengths - not sure, everything looks like a weakness to me.. i guess for my first few paintings i can blend colors fairly well, and i know a lot about the program..

work on the most - i think perspective is the biggest deal.. anatomy and facial structure are things i can live with but having the right perspective is a huge issue for me, and it really needs to be worked on.. also think its called foreshortening? =/

i'll critiq yours whenever you post it aveh

[JBuRRkE]

heres three posemaniacs for yah..

they go in order from my first 2min to my first 20 min, then my second 2min ect..

on the third pose i kept screwing up, i couldnt get it to look right.. so that explains why the 2 min looks better then the 20 min =/

[Aveh]

Strengths - Motivation/Dedication and I'm usually a quick learner, but I'm horrible at locating the specific information I need.

Weaknesses - Contrast, I never make things dark enough. I'm trying to make a habit of doing the darkest thing I can do first then go on about things the way I normally do. Foreshortening on the figure is probably one of my biggest ongoing issues, I've never really sat down to focus on it so thats probably why it scares me the most.

Things I need to work on the most? Finding things to draw when I don't really want to and developing more patience for longer studies. Logically longer studies mean you retain more information but it's always been a weak point of mine to take more than a certain amount of time for any specific task.

Crits on JBurkke:

On the overall picture I think you should have stayed away from the softer brushes and stick to hard brush only. And like me, you needed more contrast and a wider range of values. The figure itself you didn't really define the form, the rendering doesn't serve the object its on, the head is too small and is missing the back of the skull. The head being too small makes everything else seem really dis-proportionate, the limbs seem really long and lanky. I think thats it.

I'll post yesterday and today's daily drawings in a bit.

[JBuRRkE]

is the chalk brush considered a soft brush? all i used was that and opacity settings..

Critts on Aveh
good:
unline mine, your proportion seems to be right.. also you got the general feel that she was leaning back pretty well (foreshortening, right?)..
bad:
i actually think the opposite for you.. i think that you used too hard of a brush, making the transition from light to dark to hard.. i know the ref had some hard shadows and hard lights, i just hink there should have been a bit more of a transition (it looks kinda cell shaded.. making it look cartoony).. again remembering the reference i see some details that are different (her knee for example), but i did the same thing :/

and you forgot the nipples!

[Aveh]

I had technical issues tonite for some reason. I recently got alias sketchbook demo and I was toying around using it for the gestures cause I hear its pretty close in feel to traditional. Well something went awry on the save for my 20min, I had values on it or whatever and that layer didn't save.. So yeah basically count it as two 90seconds from me for today. Paper and pencil from me from now on.

[JBuRRkE]

todays posemaniacs..

2min, 20min

[Slash]

Critting time. This exercise was one in values, so that is what i'll focus on.

Jburrke - Your piece lacks contrast, you have used a very narrow range of values. To
the bottom left in the image below you see your value range, and to the right is the value
range of the reference. as you can see, you're pretty much missing the darker half of the
range. I think some of your problems with the values might be that you painted on white. Next
time start out with a 50% gray document, then work both up and down the value range.



Aveh: Your values are better than jburrke's. But still you could push the contrast some
more. And even tho you've included some dark spots in your image, they aren't consistent.
You have a dark spot on the hip, then some spots to the right. These values occur all over
the reference, and should be used them more. If you take a look at your background, you see
that there's very little change in value from the left to the right, apart from just a small dark area to
the right. if you look at the background on the reference, its a rather steady gradient from
dark to light. And jburrke is right, it wouldn't hurt to make your transitions more smooth.


Have a look at this:



(1) is just a little darker than (2) but (2) appears to be a lot brighter than (1) because of the
contrast to the surrounding values. If you compare (3) to (4), you'll see that the contrast
between (2) and (3) is much higher than it is between (1) and (4). The high contrast between
the shoulder and the background is what helps the figure pop out. You see the same thing
between (4) and (5), only here the background is light and the figure dark. You have to
constantly evaluate your values when painting, and compare then to each other. If you have a
look at (6) you see that its about the same as (5)

This exercise was supposed to be about values, but i'll include some extras for you to
consider as well.

Negative shapes: these guys are important. They are every bit as important as the positive
shapes, because if the negative shape is off, the positive shape is off. Constantly check if
both the negative and the postive shapes are correct. If there is any doubt to what a negative
shape is, i've panted them in red here:


Guidelines. Most of the guidelines i'm using are mental. I make a note of what features line
up with others. With tricky pieces i use the ruler tool in photoshop. With this particular
reference i quickly scanned over it and noticed some landmarks and their relation to each
other. Here:


I noticed that the nose roughly lines up with the nipple, the right part of her ladybits (right as
viewed.) and her foot. Her right (left as viewed.) nipple lines up horizontally with her left
elbow. (right as viewed.) The edge of her eye lines up with the corner of her mouth and her
bellybutton. Her shoulder lines up with the bottom of her lip. The transition between her
hip/thigh lines up with the transition of her ribs/thigh on the other side. I think the picture
speaks for itself. Always find landmarks and compare them to each other. The more you find
the better.




YOUR NEXT ASSIGNMENT:

Use the same reference. Flip it horizontally and paint it again. This time however, you're only
allowed to use 3 different values, 95% black 50% gray and 95% white. This means you have to
cut away many transitional values and break the image up into its major shapes. Pay attention
to landmarks and negative shapes.

//edit: BONUS ASSIGNMENT: Identify at least four landmarks that line up with each other. (not necessarily 1-2-3-4, 1-2 and 3-4 works fine too.)

[Ilaekae]

OOOOOOoooooooo. This was nicely done. I think I'm going to pop in here more often if nobody minds...

[JBuRRkE]

posemaniacs for today..

i was really trying to get rid of the stupid habit i have of "petting" my lines.. this pose seemed really hard =/

2 min then 20 min

[JBuRRkE]

heres my project.. turned out horrible

anyways

landmarks:
tip of left finger (right as viewed) lines up with top of hair line
bottom of her "ladybits" line up with the mid area of the darker part of the picture frame
end of her right (left as viewed) thigh lines up with the corner on the inside of her right (left as viewed) elbow
and the end of the crease between her thigh and her calf muscle lines up with the furthest point her hair goes out..

i'm really unhappy with the way that this came out.. i spent hours restarting and finally came out with something i kind of liked, only turned out horrible in the end.. :/

edit:
ignore the landmark where her thigh starts and her ribs end, forgot slash used that one..

[Aveh]

I'll get to critting yours burkke in the morning when I post mine.

{edit} Shite scans, apologies.

[JBuRRkE]

i spent like 35 mins on this.. if you want me to redo i will =/

[Slash]

I believe the assignment is 2 minutes and 20 minutes, no more, no less. Keep images not related to the assignments in your sketchbok.

Aveh! Where's your assignment? Post it up so i can crit you guys and move on to the next assignment!

[JBuRRkE]

my bad =/

want meh to remove it?

[Slash]

Nah, just leave it for now.

Aveh? you there?

[JBuRRkE]

...

>:d

[Aveh]

Sorry about the wait, network issues with the interwebz.

Plumblines;
-Nose with Start of the hand
-Navel with start of the leg on our right ( Just realized Slash used that one...blah)
-End of the shoulder and the knee
-Right knee to the top of the left knee ( Should have used this one, now that I look at it

[Aveh]

Crit: Jburrke.

I don't think you got the values right. Its too washed out in white. Like her right leg for instance. The thigh is brighter than the lower leg, yet instead of putting the black there you put gray as well as a white highlight. Also if you were going to pay that much attention to the frame I think you should have got a little more of what was going on underneath her as well. There is quite alot of light to dark going on there.

For the figure in general, I think you did a better job than the first but there is still some issues. You didn't get the lean of the head correct but you still placed it in the same spot so it makes it look like the head isn't centered between the shoulders. I think the head is a tad too small also. The mass of the ribcage is a lot shorter than her's is in the picture. And the "pinch" happens to high which is what is stopping you from getting the perspective feel.

[JBuRRkE]

crits on aveh

i was going to say the same about yours =/.. even though the bottom of her right leg is darker then the rest, there are still different values there.. maybe the white was a bit much but at least some gray in there.. also theres a lot of value in the piece in general, i mean you dont have only three.. looks like your brush was set to pen pressure = opacity, because if you wave the eyedropper around the black % changes a lot, but i didnt know you talked to slash about it, so nvm :/..

other then that, looks like the image was cropped a bit wrong (her right arm is cut out) and her hair is all wacky...

and you forgot the nipples again! lol

[JessiBean]

Dude! If the reference images are all going to be like that one I want to sign up!



Very good lessons, by the way.
And you said you're not a teacher... pfft!

[Slash]

Okay! Class assembled! lets see here.. First i'll crit the value part of the assignment.

Jburrke: Good job on the values. You've managed to identify the large shapes and place the values pretty good. There are some areas that are wrong tho, like on the stomach where you have a white spot (1) even tho there's almost no shift in value on the reference. Also, on the leg there's a big white part of the leg (2) even tho its bascially the same value as the thigh (3) in the reference. The neck/hair area should be darker too. (4) You have resisted the temptation to get too many details in there, you've managed to mentally melt little details into big shapes and values. This is very important to be able to do when you're drawing or painting, always get the BIG shapes and main values right FIRST, then move on to detailing later. If you squint your eyes it becomes easier to see the main shapes and values. Thinking big shapes is important when drawing hair, because trying to draw every strand like you did there doesnt yield too fancy results.



Aveh: I'm not too pleased with this one. First of all there's more than 3 values in this. and there's transitional values due to soft brushes. also, there's outlines where there shouldn't be, like on the thigh (1). You too did correctly identify the large shapes tho, so bascially you passed. I'm just not too fond of the sloppy presentation.




Both of you:
I hope this exercise will help you to think about the large shapes and main value of an image, and to understand the importance of thinking BIG -> small when constructing an image. We're gonna come back to this to recap later on, but for now try to remember what you've learned, and USE IT!.


Now for the landmarks. You both did well on part of the assignment, that is identifying the landmarks. But you both failed in the IMPORTANT part of the assignment, USING THEM. Whats the point of having landmarks without using them?

Aveh, you didn't do too shabby here, but still you are off in many places. And burke does have a point, the nipples are there, why didn't you paint them in? They are clearly defined, so they are a good landmark.

Jburrke, this is where i flog you. You've identified some solid landmarks, yet still you've failed to use a single one of them correctly. Actually that was a little too harsh, the tip of the hair -> knee thing was pretty dead on, but thats the only one. If something doesnt line up to its landmark, move it. Its that simple. Just keep moving things until everything lines up, and you'll have a correct image. Saying "i cant do any better" is the same as saying "I give up." Is that the kind of attitude you wanna have when approaching your problems?


Your Next Assignment:
Tablet control!

Your tablet is your friend. Its an awesome tool, but the hand/eye coordination can be tricky. You want your tools to be an extension of your mind, and it shouldn't be something that holds you back. Therefore you need to practice using the tablet. Gain control over it. It will never be as tactile as drawing directly on the surface like a pen on paper or a cintiq, but its still possible to get to the point where it feels natural.

This might sound like a stupid exercise, but i want you to do it anyways. Make a document thats the same rez as your screen, and put it to 100% zoom. use a 100% hard brush, size 4, with size set to opacity. Draw a BIG circle as round as you can, then start filling this with gradually smaller circles. make atleast 20 smaller circles inside the big one. Do this twice. Then start with a small circle and draw bigger ones on the outside of that, bascially the same exercise only in reverse. Do this twice.

Assignment 2: Familiarize yourself with the photoshop brush editor. Download Barontieri's brush set from here: http://www.barontieri.com/atelier.htm (bottom of the page) and play around with all of them. Fill a few documents with cool shit. Make 4 brushes of your own, based on printscreens of famous places grabbed on google maps. GO!


I understand that you 'mericuns have thanksgiving coming up, so I'm gonna post another assignment first thing in the morning, so you have something to work on during the holidays.

Aveh, i'm gonna expect to have our conversation in IRC edited and posted in this thread with its companion images, so that jburrke (and others) might benefit from the info i gave you. I also want to add some footnotes to some of my comments, to clarify some points.

Jessibean, thank you very much! I'm pretty harsh with these boys, so i plan on giving them nice reference images to make up for some of that hurting. So yeah, many of the refs will be like that. So feel free to sign up! Thats the reason i agreed to this mentoring business anyways, to mentor pretty girls, instead I end up mentoring these girly boys...
Although it would be rather silly for me to mentor someone who's more skilled than me. Do feel free to stick around for the nude girls tho.


//Edit: The latest posemaniacs piece i see here is from november 18th. When i said "Draw one every day and post one every day" i didn't mean "Draw one every other day and post it when you feel like it", if i did i would have said "Draw one every day and post it when you feel like it.". See, there's a difference. Every day means that between everytime the clock strikes midnight you should post your posemaniacs drawings. I specifically gave you this assignment so that you would get in the habit of drawing and posting every day. You NOT drawing and posting every day is basically the definition of you failing.

[JessiBean]

I need the practice anyway! And I beg to differ on the more skilled, I watched your face painting videos 5 or 6 times now... (that's right, I've totally been checking you out) I want your powers, sir.

Teeeeeeeeeach MEEEEEE!
And let me paint naked girls...

[Slash]

Okay, so be it, you're in. Don't think i'll go easy on you just because you got boobs. But tits for tat, you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours. I teach you whatever you think you can learn from me, and you teach me how to get that certain touch of elegance and coolness you have in your pics. I want you to do the same exercises as the other guys, cool? I also want you to crit the guys' homework, like they do each others'. (And they'll crit yours in return.)

Hear that boys? You got a new classmate. And she's gonna be filling in the role as teacher's favorite for obvious reasons, sorry guys.. I'm also expecting her to chime in and help with certain assignments, because obviously she's an artist of considerable skill, and her knowledge will be very valuable to us.

[JessiBean]

Ooo, tag teaming... I like it.
Can I trade a back scratch for a back rub? I has some tension...

Also, which assignment should I begin on?

[Slash]

I think that could be arranged Jess. You boys still get just scratches tho, sorry. (see what i mean about teacher's favorite?)

Since you seemed to like the reference so much, you can do the first two exercises in reverse order. First do the 3 toned one, then save out and post that, then continue working on it, introduce the rest of the values and take it to a finished polish. Focus on values. Identify and use landmarks found in the ref. Pay attention to negative spaces.

I also want you to draw every day. You'll be drawing two pics from posemaniacs every day, one 20 minute sketch and one 2 minute sketch. If you're not familiar with posemaniacs you can find it here: http://www.posemaniacs.com/blog/

The ref for the assignment can be found here: http://www.kindgirls.com/gal7657/max...axy_2398_8.jpg

[Aveh]

Yeah, I have been slacking on the daily pose maniac thing. I apologize for that. This week I'll make sure not to make that mistake again.

I've started editing the log for the stuff we talked about in IRC, but it was a long ass convo. So give me some time for it.

Hi JessiBean, welcome to that weirdos classroom.

[Slash]

I'm still gonna be wanting november 16-22. There's no rush about that IRC thing, because i touch upon some things there that i'd like to go through more thorough before applying them in a real-world example like you did. But don't forget it.


Weirdo? Moi? Poppycock!


//Edit: Here's the new assignment after you've completed the previous ones:

I want to keep working some more on values. Sooo..
Paint this picture. First, use only 4 tones this time. As before, focus on breaking the image up in its major shapes. Pay attention to negative shapes and landmarks. Save a copy of the completed 4 toned one, then continue working on the painting, introducing the rest of the values. Bring it up to as polished a piece as you can manage. Dont give up too early. Use 5, 35, 75 and 95% brightness for your values.
Color pick from this if you like:


When you are done, post the 4 toned one and the finished one in here. (obviously..)

Happy holidays to those of you who celebrate thanksgiving!