The Reality of Going to Art School and a basic FAQ for those considering it.

[Maxine Schacker]

I'm sure networking does help, but more important is your ability to put together a portfolio, a decent curriculum vitae, write an intelligent cover letter, and then present yourself well in a personal interview. The recruiter has a brief time to size you up, and, as we all know, they aren't just hiring your skill base - your presence will affect the whole organization. A major complaint concerns the attitude of many young people who don't take direction well and aren't professional. Your interview is your shot and at communicating the right balance of self assurance and modesty, and impressing the interviewer with your desire to grow as a team player in a professional environment.


We have one excellent graduate who, despite coaching in a portfolio development course, has very limited verbal skills and just doesn't present well. He's actually very motivated and professional, a good team player and is an asset to any organization. He would make it to the interview, and then be passed over. He took advantage of the offer of an unpaid internship at a major company in desperate need of extra hands (they had hired other graduates) Instead of complaining that he wasn't even offered minimum wage, he grabbed the opportunity figuring he's at least get a resume started and possibly a reference. His work was so good that they decided to pay him for the internship work, and then hired him! All's well that ends well.

Nonetheless, he should work on his command of language and his ability to present himself well.

[copperfire]

This thread is so helpful, this site is helpful, you get advice from people in the industry and they can all tell you something different, so pay attention.

This thread has a ton of VERY helpful tips. Great idea! And thank you. Now we can stop seeing all those "done to death" topics people post so often.

[Storyboard Dave]

24. When in school, don't be afraid to take classes outside of your major. Take a class in Fine Arts, try your hand at Graphic Design, study Advertising, or whatever blows your hair back. Take advantage of the time and resources you have access to while you're there. Don't be afraid to learn something outside of your comfort zone; it all will come back and influence your own style. Studying art is a lifetime endeavor so why not take advantage of the time you have in college. It goes by all too fast and before you know it, you'll be joining the work force.

[•Lindsay•]

I've been wanting to reply to this thread forever and I never have. There are two things nobody's brought up yet.

5. What you do outside of school (outside of the student assignments and on top of the student assignments) is what will get you where you need to be. After school you will work four times harder than you did in art school so you might as well pick up the pace your freshman year and push as hard as you can.

I don't want to get too literal here but during my first semester I spent about 35 hours per week in class. I spent about that same amount of time on homework, which means 70 hours per week. Are working artists are supposed to work more than 10 hours per day? That doesn't seem right.

11. Ask to see the faculty work of those whom you will study under. If you blindly attend because of reputation you may find that you have instructors who cannot do anything of the sort that you wish to learn yourself. ie if your instructor is a fine artist who makes everything out of balls of rice, you are going to have a very hard time learning composition and color theory from them. Find out who you are studying under before you spend six figures on an education...that even applies to the more affordable solutions at the state or community level.

This isn't always true. I had a teacher this year who was an abstract artist, but he knew a lot about composition and color theory. There are also good artists who aren't good teachers. I think it's more important to look at the work of the students to see if they're learning the things you're interested in.

[Storyboard Dave]

Are working artists are supposed to work more than 10 hours per day? That doesn't seem right.

On certain deadlines, yeah I've done easily more than a ten hour day. With monstrous projects that have incredibly short deadlines it's easliy conceivable that all-nighters can occur. Granted it's the exception (and great paying) but yeah, one can work more than ten hours a day.

I had a teacher this year who was an abstract artist, but he knew a lot about composition and color theory. There are also good artists who aren't good teachers. I think it's more important to look at the work of the students to see if they're learning the things you're interested in.

I think a healthy balance has to be struck here when it comes to judging this. I know as an instructor now that there have been times where I've had phenomenal talent and the students will shine with or without me. And then there have been those times where the talent level, group dynamic or mojo of the class just doesn't click as well- and the artwork produced is sub-par regardless of my teaching abilities. Sometimes it just comes down to inter-personal relations between an instructor and their students- do they connect on that motivational & informational levels at that particular time?

[Sharon Knettell]

I taught a a big time school, namel RISD. I toally agree with what you say here.

The others in the faculty were horrified when I denigrated anything about the school. When said the foundation course was poorly done vis-a-vis drawing skills, the reply was; "Oh that can't be! RISD is the finest art school in the world" Not!

I send the local kids to Rhode Island College. They have a small but excellent art program at a fraction of the cost.

[REGNIRUTH]

gah, i should have looked at this sooner. i'm already in my second year at RIT and i still don't seem to benefit much from most of my classes.

maybe i should rethink some things and see what my options are.

[•Lindsay•]

On certain deadlines, yeah I've done easily more than a ten hour day. With monstrous projects that have incredibly short deadlines it's easliy conceivable that all-nighters can occur. Granted it's the exception (and great paying) but yeah, one can work more than ten hours a day.

I'm talking about averages though.

I taught a a big time school, namel RISD. I toally agree with what you say here.

The others in the faculty were horrified when I denigrated anything about the school. When said the foundation course was poorly done vis-a-vis drawing skills, the reply was; "Oh that can't be! RISD is the finest art school in the world" Not!

I send the local kids to Rhode Island College. They have a small but excellent art program at a fraction of the cost.

As a RISD student this is bad news for me. I visited a lot of East coast colleges and I got the impression that RISD taught great drawing skills. Everyone in my class was good. What do you think is lacking?

[Sharon Knettell]

Linzoy,

What are you majoring in?

What do you want as a career. Are drawing skills important to you?

You can get better drawing instruction at http://lymeacademy.edu/ at half the price with a degree.

The foundation course does not emphasise good drawing skills and they are treated marginally. If my concentration was figurative PAFA would be a much better choice. Here is the RISD Foundation drawing exhibition. Long on freedom to express yourself and short on the basic drawinf skill. If you like to make kites or colotful crates out of cardboard, then you should be happy as a clam. http://www.risd.edu/foundation.cfm

A lot of the students pay extra for models in private groups. Here is the illustration curriculum. Where's the figure studies? http://www.risd.edu/pdf/curricula/illustration_bfa.pdf

[•Lindsay•]

I'm going to major in illustration. I'm very interested in animation but I keep getting warned that it's not for everyone so I have to look into it more before I commit to it. My career is uncertain at this point, but obviously drawing skills are always important to me.

Thanks for the link, I will look at that school. I'm taking a break for a year so maybe I can take classes there if they allow temporary students.

Those cardboard things you see in the exhibit where made in 3d class, not drawing class. I didn't get much out of 3d class but at least they taught me how to do armatures.

RISD has an open figure drawing class twice a week for free, so I don't see the point of hiring models.

In my experience illustration students are allowed to do any random thing they want such as bring in a dead gerbil as an assignment. But there are many of us who are interested in representational drawing and there are teachers who are good at teaching it. I've never been to any other college so I have no frame of reference though.

I like the sense of community at RISD and the feedback I get. If I graduate I'll be part of the strong alumni network. It's also nice how they give you a chance to be somewhat well-rounded by taking their liberal arts seriously. I'd like to get the best education though, so if my school is lacking in anything it's good to know that.

By the way I looked at your website and your art is staggering. The site seems to be offline now though.

[Brittons]

One thing I haven't heard people mention yet is getting an internship before you finalize your career path. I know from my experience that what I THOUGHT a job in entertainment art was going to be and what it actually IS was pretty off in some ways. That's not saying it's bad, but to use an example... I'm 33 now and would like to be close to my family. They live in Michigan and there are really no game studios there and it's not an option for me to live nearby unless I was a full time freelancer. This was something I hadn't even thought about when I was a student. Just one example of many I can think about. I love my company and career, but there were many things like this that I probably would have more closely considered if I had gotten a more early opportunity to experience the reality of the professional world. Other examples might be the reality of crunch time, whether or not you are a good fit in the culture of the type of people you will be working with. There's just no way to learn that stuff in a classroom.

Also, in my experience, it worked for me to focus more on the fundumental skills like drawing and painting in school. Many employers will still "give you a shot" if they see potential in your fundumental art skills. Small Ateliers and schools like the Watts Atelier give students a huge jump start if they even need to go to a college afterwards.

I completely agree with Jason that recruiters will say whatever they need to say. Some of the garbage these schools spew to prospective students is really off in my moral compass. I was once told, "we place 100% of our students". That's just statistically impossible with the amount of quality jobs or the lack therof.

[giraffo]

Linzoy,

What are you majoring in?

What do you want as a career. Are drawing skills important to you?

You can get better drawing instruction at http://lymeacademy.edu/ at half the price with a degree.

The foundation course does not emphasise good drawing skills and they are treated marginally. If my concentration was figurative PAFA would be a much better choice. Here is the RISD Foundation drawing exhibition. Long on freedom to express yourself and short on the basic drawinf skill. If you like to make kites or colotful crates out of cardboard, then you should be happy as a clam. http://www.risd.edu/foundation.cfm

A lot of the students pay extra for models in private groups. Here is the illustration curriculum. Where's the figure studies? http://www.risd.edu/pdf/curricula/illustration_bfa.pdf

actually, from my understanding, as a RISD student, Freshman year is all about back breaking workloads and trying to inform students from all walks of life and interests. It's obvious Freshmen year at RISD is frankly different and engaging in other ways... I have encountered some open minded teachers, to ones who are more argreeable to your tastes. When I found that I felt in my Freshman year I wasn't really learning what I would like to, I talked to an Illustration Junior who produces solid, professional level work about Foundation. Simply put, you're judging way too much on drawing...Drawing is certainly a necesity, but not everyone is going to be an Illustration/FAV major. I don't know why I'm saying this, you know it...You've even taught here. Then from what I understand, in your Sophmore year as an Illustration major you are taught in a more refined, traditional manner. He explained this, saying, "yeah, Freshman year is a lot of "well, this is my personal representation of a foot." while if you're going to be a Sophmore in Illustration you're going to get a lot of: "You call that a foot? Try again, start over, you're a failure." This is where you are meant to get your chops, taking Drawing and Painting in a very intensive, figurative way. I've been told by other Illustration kids that they give you (in the loosest sense of "give") the chops and then they figure out exactly what you want to do with those chops...Want to do comics? Then the professor will help apply his teaching to you and your drawings based on what you specifically want to do. Meaning...You want to do something involving figurative work? Then you're going to get assignments based off of figurative work, and a lot of it...I can't remember who said you should be able to draw a good figure as a sophomore in high school, but it's ignorant comments like that that irk me. Draw whatever you want whenever you want, just be intelligent about where it might get you. There's no timeline for talent or hard work.

I understand what you're saying; RISD has a bit of an over inflated reputation. Big deal. Don't make the mistake of misproportionately judging individuals based off of that reputation, at the same time...A lot of institutions walk around with a reputation that overstates the quality of the work produced. However, you seem to be incredibly bitter toward RISD in general...You make it sound like even if you want to learn here, you won't. That's simply not true. No matter where you are, if you work hard and remain open minded, you walk away with higher quality work. The price tags of places like RISD or other big name art schools, however, isn't necesarily in it being able to teach you how to draw the figure better or put lines down on paper, it provides you with a more in-depth experience and opportunities with prospective employers. You can definitely get the education you want at RIC, but you also inherit RIC's relationship with the industry, whatever it may be. From personal experience, my older brother certainly got his money's worth at a state school doing Music Industry, but when it came down to it, despite how brilliant or talented he is, he could have footed the bill to NYU and been guaranteed a relationship with his prospective industry. (meaning, for less, he got his teaching at a state school, and now is not sure what to do with himself. for more, he could have gotten his teaching and NYU's integral part of Music Industry...allowing his 4 years of work easier access to means of employment or whatever he seeks.)

Simply put...quit griping about RISD every chance you get...Even when it's not necesary you feel the urge to tell people how much of a joke RISD is. There are pro's and con's and risks to EVERY school, RISD, RIC, Joe Blow's Mark Making With Markers 101...You can inform people very well about the pros and con's, you don't have to be bitter every step of the way in doing so.

I don't know what number there is but...I figure I should contribute to the topic.

x) There will be people who party, and the weirdo shut-ins who draw all day. You're going to find a huge gap in the work quality of the two types, barring the freak of nature.

[Nagel]

I think this has been a very informative thread and helped me further think about my options moving forward.

Due to the fact that this thread is being posted on a forum which a lot of artists in the entertainment field post, I think there is a bit of a biased view on things. But, regardless, there is still some great information that someone thinking about this should consider. Art to me is a VERY broad subject and there are so many areas one can go into with their skillset. I think with age, comes maturity and figuring out what you want out of your life. I've loved art since i've been a kid and do it as much as my time permits me to. I think one has to search their sole of soles and really be honest with themselves before they jump into something whether it is becoming an artist, financial advisor, programmer, or a plumber. I'm currently trying to make a decision on my next step, and i'm 26. I'm evaluating whether or not I want to take a stab at art school, hence why i'm on this thread, or just do with what I have and look for a job based on that. Or stay where i'm at and play to my other strengths and incorporate my love for art in other ways.

I think that an important thing that a lot of younger kids thinking about art school need to seriously consider is quality of life after school. Sounds silly to think about when you are young, but it's very important to weigh that heavily in my opinion. Life happens! Eating, clothes, kids, taxes, perhaps you want to go to a movie, there is a girl or a few girls you want to take out, maybe you want to spend some of your time playing an adult sports league. Sounds stupid to think about, but that is reality. Whatever the case may be, I think that should be factored into your process for making this decision.

Rather then blab on, i'll leave this one last thought. The problem a lot of the times is that a person is not exactly sure what they want. They invest time and money into something only to find that it was the wrong thing or that they did it for the wrong reasons. I think physical appearance is the most prevalent analogy. Some people want to look like a super model, and even though they go to the gym once in a while they can't get that look that they see in Maxim or GQ and wonder why. Well, those people typically have a regimented life routine that got them there by drinking power shakes, eating only certain foods, working out 2 hours every day, running 20 miles a week, train 24x7 in other words. Now ask yourself if that's really what you want, or are you content with staying in shape by running after work, or doing some yoga 3 times a week, or writing for the magazine to get your fix, or training for a marathon just to say you did it, take a weight lifting class. (I hope that made sense... it does in my head, but perhaps it needs to be clarified!)

[setsuna801]

I have a question does the place I decided to study will influence a lot in what I want to become ? I want to study in what I like to become what I want to be. I may only study one time in a art school since it is expensive. I want to go in animation because I love posing, anatomy, characters, conception. I want to do concept and design. But working as a storyboard artist or an animators is not the b iggest excitement for me but I like it but after concept and designs. If I take illustration I will get concepts,designs ,colors but little characters,posing and anatomy that I like so much. But I want to take animation and then do my best to work my way and get better in painting to be concepts, is there some of you who have done this ?

I always see either way a concepter and a designer have learn this jobs by hims self or by studying, fine arts or illustration.


SO I really want to know if the place I will study will influence me a lot and could make me regret things and put me in a very wrong direction.

[Storyboard Dave]

SO I really want to know if the place I will study will influence me a lot and could make me regret things and put me in a very wrong direction.

Going to school will give you some skills but ultimately you're still responsible for your own education- formal and beyond. Even though I've been out of school for over 20 years, I'm still learning each and every day. My education hasn't stopped. Some of the information I get daily is correct and some of it might not be applicable but I have to make those decisions and be responsible for them. You have to do the same with your own education as well.

[jrbrusseau]

Wow information overload here. I just got my GED just to go to college and now people are saying that's not really necessary or full-proof.

"Just work hard and work hard and you'll be where you wanna be." is what I'm hearing now. This makes me seriously question if I have been wasting my time or not.

[artmessiah]

Wow information overload here. I just got my GED just to go to college and now people are saying that's not really necessary or full-proof.

"Just work hard and work hard and you'll be where you wanna be." is what I'm hearing now. This makes me seriously question if I have been wasting my time or not.

You have not been wasting your time. It's good that you got your GED and it's will be good if you decide to go to college. If you don't go, it's your decision, just make the best out of your self education and strive to be great. Despite what some say here college can only help you, but saving money is uber important as well that's why college may not be for everyone in that respect. It all depends on how comfortable you are with your skills and if you can make a living with your art. Colleges doesn't necessarily make you a better artist persay but it does put you in an environment that only IMO gives you daily inspiration to improve and push boundaries. Plus as someone stated earlier some companies/recruiters do look for applicants to have a degree, so why limit yourself in the pool of every growing competitive industry of entertainment visual media.

[jrbrusseau]

Thanks artmessiah, I feel a little confused but I'm also a little encouraged now.
I think I might hold off of college until I'm rich, maybe I'm still unsure.

I guess experience > degree as far as careers go. Am I right?

I'm still unsure in what exactly in art I want to do, so I guess I should hold off of college anyway.

[Jibbly]

.
In reference to the original post in this thread... I think it is important to point out that Jason is not successful *because* he doesn't have a degree.
He is successful in spite of the fact that he doesn't have one. There is a big difference.
The truth of the matter is that most of the individuals in a position of creative leadership in the industry *do* have a degree.
A complete college education prepares you for a career... not just a job.
Degrees do mean "jack squat" to an artist and to the people who hire artists.

I would also like to respectfully disagree with the statement that "95% of what can be found at the big art schools can be found at the state and community college level."
Depending on the school and the major within the school, this simply isn't true. I also find it somewhat irresponsible
to then go on and basically make a shameless sales plug by trying to sell Conceptart.org workshops to make up the missing 5%.

There are a lot of high school students that read these forums and I think that we should be careful here.
It's fine that Jason's personal opinion is that you should go to community college and take Conceptart.org workshops.
But placing it as a sticky post called "The Reality of Going to Art School and a basic FAQ for those considering it"
lends a credibility to that first post that goes beyond individual perspective, and students who weigh that too heavily
could possibly make decisions that might negatively affect their future professional lives.

This is one of the most true things posted on this forum. It's a different world out there now, most jobs are going to require that you have a degree. I know it's easy to listen to an older person in the field who says that they didn't graduate from art school so you don't have to, hell, most of the recruiters that come here didn't go to art school. The art world is changing, many jobs will require at least a bachelors degree now, not that it's more important than a portfolio, but it will be necessary. If you're looking to pick a college now, imagine how different it will be in another four years. Something one of my teachers said resonates right now, "You're not here to learn what artists and designers are doing today, you're here to imagine what Artists and Designers are doing in the future." This rings true for business practices as well. It's becoming more and more common for an art-related job to require a degree. Honestly, I can't even imagine Jason hires many young artists who don't have degrees.

Okay, there's a lot of good information in this thread, but it's easy to get caught up in that 'art schools are overpriced' mentality. There's a reason big-name art schools have big names; and it's not because they have some PR person doing all of the work. They have big names because they consistently produce graduating students with incredible portfolios who become wildly successful. Does this mean every single student is one of them? No, absolutely not. But they do have a great amount of great students. As this school year winds down, here at Ringling all of the Senior work is begun to be put up around campus as they prepare for the final shows, one thing I can't help but notice is the quality of the work. The pieces of artwork that the Seniors have at this school, whether they're Illustrators, Computer Animators, Fine Artists, Graphic Designers or even Interior Designers; the work is professional quality. Now I'm sure that you can get the same thing from other 'big name schools' as well. Keep in mind that a school is made up of Students. You will learn a lot from teachers, and the facilities will help you to hone your skills. But the most important thing to look at is the students. Look at who has graduated, talk to them, talk to people in every year, and every major, if you can. You will learn more from your classmates than you will ever learn from your teacher, not because they know more than you or your teacher, but because they think differently. That's what makes a 'big name art school' worth it, who you're surrounded by. If you go to a school like Ringling or RISD or Pratt or MICA, you'll be surrounded by artists like you, who would kill to succeed, the best of the best.

Basically, all I'm saying is that you shouldn't ignore the big schools simply because they're big schools and they're expensive. Don't turn them down because you can get it cheaper at a community college or at a state school. Believe me, when I made the decision to go to Ringling, it wasn't because of the money. When I looked at the program at my local University (UCF, in case you wondered) their Graphic Design department didn't even start taking art courses until their Junior year. Now, I took a year off between High School and coming to College (something I would recommend to everyone!), so many of my friends were sophomores when I began my freshman year. A friend of mine, the same major as I am, decided to attend UCF instead of an art school, for two years he has been taking gen-ed courses which have nothing to do with his major. Then he has to apply to get into the Graphic Design program his Junior year (in about a month) and maybe he'll get in and get to start taking Graphic Design classes. As a freshman, I have already taken two courses in Graphic Design, and am making work on par with their Junior class.

Oy, that may have been a bit of a tangent.

So.

Basic summary: Don't not go to an art school simply because it's expensive, or because Jason didn't go, or because some other anonymous person on the internet told you that community colleges are the same. They're not. Look at the program, the facilities and the teachers; but most importantly, look at the students.

Thank you...

Oy, did you actually read all of that?

[Jason Manley]

I've been wanting to reply to this thread forever and I never have. There are two things nobody's brought up yet.

I don't want to get too literal here but during my first semester I spent about 35 hours per week in class. I spent about that same amount of time on homework, which means 70 hours per week. Are working artists are supposed to work more than 10 hours per day? That doesn't seem right.

This isn't always true. I had a teacher this year who was an abstract artist, but he knew a lot about composition and color theory. There are also good artists who aren't good teachers. I think it's more important to look at the work of the students to see if they're learning the things you're interested in.

You will find out when you get out. School is a vacation compared to the professional art world. Getting two weeks on assignments in college for things you will get two days or less on in the real world...the amount of work is considerably deeper outside of school...but the point of what I was saying is that just doing the assignments is not even 30 percent of what it is going to take to make it as an artist after college. Honestly that work is probably going to be seen by you as crap that gets removed from the portfolio within six months of graduation. You might as well push very hard on work outside of class, as that is what will make you successful in the long run. School work is just a tool to teach you what you need to know to do your own body of work.


Regarding your abstract painting teacher...I sure as hell hope they know about composition and color theory..that is a core root of abstract art.

[Jason Manley]

.
In reference to the original post in this thread... I think it is important to point out that Jason is not successful *because* he doesn't have a degree.
He is successful in spite of the fact that he doesn't have one. There is a big difference.
The truth of the matter is that most of the individuals in a position of creative leadership in the industry *do* have a degree.
A complete college education prepares you for a career... not just a job.
Degrees do mean "jack squat" to an artist and to the people who hire artists.

I would also like to respectfully disagree with the statement that "95% of what can be found at the big art schools can be found at the state and community college level."
Depending on the school and the major within the school, this simply isn't true. I also find it somewhat irresponsible
to then go on and basically make a shameless sales plug by trying to sell Conceptart.org workshops to make up the missing 5%.

There are a lot of high school students that read these forums and I think that we should be careful here.
It's fine that Jason's personal opinion is that you should go to community college and take Conceptart.org workshops.
But placing it as a sticky post called "The Reality of Going to Art School and a basic FAQ for those considering it"
lends a credibility to that first post that goes beyond individual perspective, and students who weigh that too heavily
could possibly make decisions that might negatively affect their future professional lives.

I stand firm and disagree with you Jim. The degree has almost nothing to do with any of the success we have as professional artists, in almost all cases. The experiences that lead to that degree are an ok foundation, but the degree is no more valuable than a blank piece of sketchbook paper unless I want my income to be dependent upon an art school, as a full time faculty member, or I wish to work in a foreign country (which can be handled in other ways often times). Perhaps there are a couple others...but I would say comfortably that nearly all opportunity an artist will face, will not come because they have a paper certificate.

No one has ever, and I mean ever, asked for my degree as a professional. I have amassed nearly 200 clients from all corners of the globe. No one asks me for such things. Not now, not before, not even when I was first getting into the field. Simply put, it just does not matter in most cases. There are two key things that matter in the world of art. Your portfolio, and your personal skills. Luck, connections, perseverance and other things come in to play, of course, but even those are infinitely more valuable than a piece of paper with a gold seal on it that few, if any, will ever see.

You and I know the portfolio says everything about work ethic, talent, vision, and all that jazz...and the interviews and success inside the field come from personal skills. I am not afraid to say that the paper is not what matters. Then again, my salary and career is not reliant upon students cutting checks over the duration of their education.

Students going a hundred thousand dollars in debt because people working at the art schools are telling them they need a degree is mildly offensive to me. This is a core reason why conceptart.org exists. ConceptArt.Org believes information about art should not cost a lifetime worth of savings, nor should it just be for the rich. There are more affordable solutions out there which yield similar results. This is a fact. Those who are financially reliant upon the high-priced programs are going to clearly support students paying all that money. Students must consider the source.

My suggestion of finding community colleges or local art institutions is valid. There are a thousand paths. Paying heavily for more than a decade, or risking a life savings, is not the only one. It is understandable why you would wish for students to take that path though, given your success teaching and designing your program. Out of all the people I work with though, only one studied at Ringling. The rest had other ways of learning...and other places and people that guided them. The expensive private art school path to a degree is valid...and so are the other paths which lead to success every day.

I run two successful international companies. I have about 70 very talented people I work with. Of these employees and partners, many of whom are of the most respected creatives in the entertainment industry, about half have degrees. Based on your rationale Jim, it could be argued that they are successful in spite of their degree, since the other half made it to the same spot in their career, but without. The difference is, those with no degrees did it without student loan debt or huge parental expense, by finding other solutions that did not put them into the massive financial hole that the over-priced art schools force upon their students.

Considering your colleague from Ringling came to our workshop to define and build its concept art curriculum, I find your suggestion on the value of our events to be humorous. I find it even more amusing that you feel educated to comment on that, considering you have not attended one yourself. I do not need to plug our events in here. They sell out every time. Any event you and the Ringling faculty wish to attend...feel free to let me know. I will put you on the guest list. I invite the Ringling faculty every time to attend for free. They only sent one to attend..once...because they had to figure out what needed to go in the concept art program Ringling was creating as an additional cash cow.

My point about the workshops (and ours are not the only ones) was simple. One of the reasons to go to schools like Ringling, is because of the company connections. Such things can be had at events like ours for pennies on the dollar in comparison. No reason to take on twelve years of 900 dollar a month payments anymore, just to get that hook-up at the end of graduation year. I had to do that and made it a personal goal to set it up so others did not. I achieved that goal. Those hook-ups are here on CA for free, or in person at our workshops.

As a businessman, I see the risk of investing 100k+ in an education vs the rewards gained as something that should be deeply looked into, and planned out. If the same benefits, or similar, can be had for much lower risk then the smart business decision is clear. If the money spent is coming from a rich family member who has it to spend, then so be it. If not, I encourage students to look to find more affordable solutions. Often times the latter path yields a more unique artist, not homogenized by the big programs.

I am aware that Ringling has a leading program on computer animation which offers some unique experiences and puts out many of the top artists in the field. I do not discredit in any way the quality of education students get in your particular program as I see it's reputation as 100 percent earned (which is to your credit). I learned a lot at Ringling. However, Ringling is not the only game in town...and is most definitely not where I would go to study concept art. I did get a lot out of certain teachers in the illustration program and career services (they know who they are). If one can afford such things..great...if not...there are more affordable solutions out there which will put the students in the same league of success as if they paid all the cash for your educational program and crisp but mostly useless degree.

Going to a school like Ringling is not a waste of money. Going and getting a degree is not a waste of time because of the wonderful experiences involved in obtaining one. The experiences had during such a chosen path can be invaluable. They are not, however, a requirement...as the art schools making millions would have the students believe.



-Jason

[petitemistress]

I have to say, Jason is unfortunately right about the "downs" of Art School... I'm graduating this year from my country's "best" fine arts program from the best national art school nonetheless, and I feel as I've utterly wasted my parents' money. The classes taught me nothing I already knew from attending an old artist's workshop and life drawing classes before, and I've been literally teaching everyone in my department about Digital Art when I'm not even that good. (And we actually do have Photoshop and Illustrator classes, but they are so basic it hurts and cator more to your photo-processing needs.) The general attitude of professors towards us is nonchalant, and they won't teach us anything of fear of us becoming competitors when we do graduate. I've heard this from a teacher first hand.

The one thing I did accomplish in those 3 years tho is invaluable: I went in with the mindset to find a particular animation teacher I had heard about that teaches here (she's a Digipen veteran and had some ties with Nintendo of America) and have her become my mentor, and THANK GOD I've succeeded; moreso we're now good friends, she's started her own company and I work in it. She's taught me so much on her own in many subjects (from Game design to character design to oil painting and sculpting.. all skills I've discovered to be necessary for a concept artist..), directed me to the good books, and even helped me convince the Fine Arts dean of my Concept Art and Videogame (flash game lol... nothing too fancy) graduation project, altho they have no virtual clue what I'm doing... So much that my Memoire this year is "Are Videogames Art? a dissertation". xD

So yeah sometimes, with perseverance, you'll get what you want out of Art School, but to be honest, I unfortunately discovered that Art is majorly self-taught... you just need good people to point you in the right direction.

[Andrew Marks]

Really what I needed to hear right about now.
I'll be finishing up my associates degree now and thinking about what art school I should goto or not. I do see it as a good place for networking with clients and other serious artist. But on the other hand I dont have the money for it, unless I take out loans, which I REALLY dont want to do. But I see so many artist today and some of my favorites, who dont even have their degree's but yet they are successful. Also as far as I know they get paid the same and have the same opportunities as others with degrees. Also when I look around at the big companies looking for concept artist, they never state how having a degree is a requirement for a position.
I also know that just because I have a degree i'm not guaranteed a job anywhere. One thing though, I talk to all my art instructors at school and they always tell me to just hang in ther and get my degree, I ask them why when even they told me that portfolio is everything and they just respond, "just do it."
But i'm still undecided right now, i've been looking into Atelier's and they seem better than any college that I have come across.
But who knows.

[Anid Maro]

Edit: Reviewing my post the following day, it was in the spirit of the original post but somewhat out of context for the current discussion. I'll just save it somewhere for an "inspiration thread" or something.

*snip*

[Jason Manley]

P.S. if you look in just this micro-cosm of artists on ConceptArt.org and look at the leaders atop the forums in the featured artists section, it is divided pretty much right down the middle between those that have degrees and those that do not.

Success is possible for anyone with the drive and mind to find it and make it happen. Preparation, study, chasing goals, and hard work are most important...as is purposeful interesting life experience.

Best of luck to all of you, regardless of your chosen path.


J

[Jason Manley]

Your post shows your very limited experience, though your school spirit is commendable.


Your assumption about me and the hiring practices of Massive Black or ConceptArt.org is false.

This is one of the most true things posted on this forum. It's a different world out there now, most jobs are going to require that you have a degree. I know it's easy to listen to an older person in the field who says that they didn't graduate from art school so you don't have to, hell, most of the recruiters that come here didn't go to art school. The art world is changing, many jobs will require at least a bachelors degree now, not that it's more important than a portfolio, but it will be necessary. If you're looking to pick a college now, imagine how different it will be in another four years. Something one of my teachers said resonates right now, "You're not here to learn what artists and designers are doing today, you're here to imagine what Artists and Designers are doing in the future." This rings true for business practices as well. It's becoming more and more common for an art-related job to require a degree. Honestly, I can't even imagine Jason hires many young artists who don't have degrees.

Okay, there's a lot of good information in this thread, but it's easy to get caught up in that 'art schools are overpriced' mentality. There's a reason big-name art schools have big names; and it's not because they have some PR person doing all of the work. They have big names because they consistently produce graduating students with incredible portfolios who become wildly successful. Does this mean every single student is one of them? No, absolutely not. But they do have a great amount of great students. As this school year winds down, here at Ringling all of the Senior work is begun to be put up around campus as they prepare for the final shows, one thing I can't help but notice is the quality of the work. The pieces of artwork that the Seniors have at this school, whether they're Illustrators, Computer Animators, Fine Artists, Graphic Designers or even Interior Designers; the work is professional quality. Now I'm sure that you can get the same thing from other 'big name schools' as well. Keep in mind that a school is made up of Students. You will learn a lot from teachers, and the facilities will help you to hone your skills. But the most important thing to look at is the students. Look at who has graduated, talk to them, talk to people in every year, and every major, if you can. You will learn more from your classmates than you will ever learn from your teacher, not because they know more than you or your teacher, but because they think differently. That's what makes a 'big name art school' worth it, who you're surrounded by. If you go to a school like Ringling or RISD or Pratt or MICA, you'll be surrounded by artists like you, who would kill to succeed, the best of the best.



Oy, that may have been a bit of a tangent.

So.

Basic summary: Don't not go to an art school simply because it's expensive, or because Jason didn't go, or because some other anonymous person on the internet told you that community colleges are the same. They're not. Look at the program, the facilities and the teachers; but most importantly, look at the students.

Thank you...

Oy, did you actually read all of that?

[Matsign]

i have most of this list printed and condensed, waiting to be read by anyone that needs it around me. I haven't had the chance to share it with my high schools' art class. An art club was established and now there is low interest. Not sure how to get this info out to kids.

I remember the pain of changing my college at the last minute from SAIC to the community college, due to the simply outrageous tuition. People need to know.

[thesinfulsaint]

I'm not going to disagree that there are advantages to self education--Glenn Vilppu dropped out of Art Center because he wasn't learning fast enough. Six months later, he was called and asked to be an instructor there. Not everyone is Glenn Vilppu, but he certainly makes a case for self-study.

However, I find it somewhat intriguing that there are a number of internship programs through big name companies (EA, Disney, and Pixar...to name a few) requesting that applicants be pursuing a degree.

[Jason Manley]

I'm not going to disagree that there are advantages to self education--Glenn Vilppu dropped out of Art Center because he wasn't learning fast enough. Six months later, he was called and asked to be an instructor there. Not everyone is Glenn Vilppu, but he certainly makes a case for self-study.

However, I find it somewhat intriguing that there are a number of internship programs through big name companies (EA, Disney, and Pixar...to name a few) requesting that applicants be pursuing a degree.

None of those companies require degrees to work there. Matter of fact, two of the three are major clients of mine (multiple projects and few of the artists working for them here have degrees). A decent portfolio and a great attitude will get you past the internship right to a fully paid position anyway.

The portfolio is most of it...your ability to be personable is the rest. I am not saying having a degree will hold you back. It just won't matter if your portfolio is excellent and your people sklls and working skills are up to par. Getting in at EA, for example, is actually easier than getting in at Massive Black or developers like id or epic. We have had interns who we felt were not ready to take the big job end up at EA or Universal or...the big companies often have spots for artists which allow for growth into a position. MB requires the artists to be off and running from the get go....Even as interns.


-Jason

[Samuel Gravina]

8. ... Degrees in art are mostly for pleasing your parents.

That's right. I'm the parent of an art school student, one of your young members, and I want to buy my daughter an art school degree.

The other advice was good too. Thanks.