I repent and mend my ways. But I have another question about global salaries...

[untier]

Ok, i assume i'm just an idiot in this aspect, so I'm innocent. Please don't be so stimulated and help me out upon this thing.

I tell you responsiblly that most artists doing artistic jobs here never paid over $4 per hour, even they're medium-level artists. Even I myself can't make close to $20k per month doing this small business, which is changing hands outsourced art jobs. If there's a way I can make more than that figure, I'd like to do it benevolantly and kill my evil... But in the realistic situation, it seems the project is just not available to apply globally and I can't blame anything actually.

But there's one point that I'm confused on. What if a person from some country that has a higher salary standard applys an american freelance job, which rewards $10 per hour? For example, the legal minimum salary is $15 per hour in his country. Will the American employer have to treat him specially by raising his salary to $15 per hour, which will overflow the employer's buget? And why do you think American average salary standard is so rational? Many people must think it should be higher to better their life.

Eh... the only bad luck is that the only resources that I can reach are that poor. I can't support higher payment to high-demanding artists. But do you mean people living in a place that has even lower standard of average wage than $4 per hour, for instance $460 per month, don't think my given figure appealing? And I admit the highest paid jobs I can supply is around $10 per hour, but this kind is very rare and very high demanding.

If the thing is really wrong I'm sure I'm just innocent, boohoo... If any kind person would like to hand me an outsourcing job that worth $12 per hour, I'd gladly to pay the artists here $10 per hour and they must be insanely happy, too.

In the end i'd say if the business isn't rational, then I learmed my leason and won't do it this way. But since this is a forum, please condescend to teach me more.

[untier]

Hi, everybody, I need to declare one thing. I'm just a normal civilian and struggling to be a decent merchant and artist. Please don't use any political eye sight to gaze at me... I'm a moron of politics and merely going to do my own things better and praise God. If I have more power, I won't be mean to help others who need aid. That's the true me. Please don't let any your bad mood to mist me. Thank you.

[Maidith]

But do you mean people living in a place that has even lower standard of average wage than $4 per hour, for instance $460 per month, don't think my given figure appealing?

Yeah... but do those people have internet access? Photoshop and graphics tablet? Hm?

[nofu]

Yeah... but do those people have internet access? Photoshop and graphics tablet? Hm?

You could be surprised...

[untier]

Hi, maidith. I'm sure I had internet connection when I made that little money per month...and other people do, too. And my mom bought a graphics tablet for me...


Btw, I typed wrong in the first post. I meant I can't make close to 20k yuan per month...which is $3.17k. Making over $1.5k per month is possible though.

[Hyskoa]

Yeah... but do those people have internet access? Photoshop and graphics tablet? Hm?

Free wifi at a local place, pirated copy of photoshop and a factory price graphics tablet?
I don't see why they wouldn't have these things.

[Beeston]

I tell you responsiblly that most artists doing artistic jobs here never paid over $4 per hour, even they're medium-level artists. Even I myself can't make close to $20k per month doing this small business, which is changing hands outsourced art jobs. If there's a way I can make more than that figure, I'd like to do it benevolantly and kill my evil... But in the realistic situation, it seems the project is just not available to apply globally and I can't blame anything actually.

I assume you mean 20k Yuan. Where abouts in China do you live, untier?

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what income level the entry level artists are at Brilliant Colours? I can't seem to find any website or PR for them on Google so I must be bad at interneting.

[untier]

Hyskoa: Er, I don't use free things of them though. Their prices are just lower here. You can consider it as a kind of social welfare... Many people aren't easy.

Insecure people gotta find ways to improve themselves. Some of them will succeed, lots of people will still get drift though. Ignorance, ability level, outlook, traditions etc. are all interferring factors. And I don't think Chinese employees can disturb American salary standard adequately via internet, so you can rest your heart... Most of us don't even think about other countries... Only if the guys like me who're fond of other cutures would do it and I think the percentage is rare compared to the whole nation. Except for some people who were born to have the advantage of connecting and coorperating with foreigners.

Beeston: I live in Shijiazhuang, Hebei province.

[Januz]

Did this thread got chopped or something? it feels like the conversation started way before the first post.

On the topic, numbers without context are meaningless. US$10 per hour, working 8hs a day for a month equals about AR$7741. Which is way above the legal minimum wage (AR$2.300) and the real minimum wage (about >AR$4000) in here. US$4/hr is a little tight, but not too much.

Just because the numbers seem low on US$, doesn't mean it's cheap.

[Elwell]

Did this thread got chopped or something? it feels like the conversation started way before the first post.

http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...hiring-artists

[Deadlyhazard]

4$ an hour? You won't be getting anything for the price, other than some of the most amateur and mediocre work. You should probably times that number by ten and that's towards the lower end of things. It's a highly skilled profession that not many people have the actual skills to do it with even the most basic proficiency. I'm not sure what you're expecting with your pricing. You're not going to get anything but high schoolers and below giving you work with that kind of price and it's not going to look good for your business.

[untier]

Just because the numbers seem low on US$, doesn't mean it's cheap.

Yeah, agreed. If a place has lower salary standard, there relatively has a lower commodity prices standard. Prices of some stuffs are thoroughly in chaos though... which is where the real problem is. In general, the living cost is obviously less here.


Deadlyhazard: Thank you for your opinions.

[Shorinji_Knight]

I don't think Chinese employees can disturb American salary standard adequately via internet, so you can rest your heart...

Not only can it, it already has. This is why the industry pays the same today as it did 10-20 years ago. It's not just Chinese... it's everyone. The internet has opened the industry to talent from far across the globe. Since most of the entertainment jobs historically have been in the United States, it has flooded the market place with labor and some it is very cheap. The problem is the industry rewards outsourcing.

In the USA, the federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. Each state may have additional laws which may raise it in that state. It is not good for the American economy for jobs to be outsourced to countries that provide cheaper labor. However, in the spirit of free market capitalism we can't really blame workers for taking advantage of a good deal. It's not their fault that our stupid government (I love my country... really I do) put us into this position. It's not like we would do any different.

[Velocity Kendall]

untier you seem like a jolly chap but youre asking us artists to find new ways to fuck eachother over.

its not in our interests at all to work for you for $4 hour, in any country. people in countries with very low wages can earn comparatively a lot by getting good and getting work in from overseas. so your scheme is basically screwing those poorest people over first, and everyone else trying to make a living second.
and for that reason, im out.

[ConnyNordlund]

You can actually get people to work for $4 if you put a gun to their heads.

[Tempoe]

I made about the same per hr in the late 80s as now doing layout and production (paste up) work right out of college for $25 an hr, valued and somewhat rare skills.
Years later those skills are useless, computer skills are everywhere, so they pay accordingly

[JDSart]

8 $ an hour is waaaay above the minimun wage on my country. If you make the exchange in the street price of dollars is a small fortune. (dollars are regulated in Venezuela)

4 $ an hour is also higher, (if you take consideration that we dont get paid in dollars and our coin is worth nothing), an entry level job won´t pay that much and not just in graphic design/illustration but other careers too. I´m talking people that have graduated from upper level education not teenagers at Mcdonalds, you get the 4 $ deal after maybe 5 years of experience, maybe but most likely its still on the lowside.

I don´t live in the middle of the jungle, i have a pc, internet, a tablet and surprisingly we are usually clothed too around this part of the wordl! but sadly thats how it is, standards are not everywhere the same they are on the first world. shockingly

[Velocity Kendall]

but, and i thought this was obvious, if youre good, you can earn first world money in the third world...

[JDSart]

but, and i thought this was obvious, if youre good, you can earn first world money in the third world...

we take errr¨ jooobs

[Syle]

This thread is weird in many different ways.

[Atreides]

Untier, you shouldn't think anything about minimum salaries. Artists don't work for minimum wage (or salary) It is a highly skilled profession. A kid working in a shop or fast food joint might make Y900- Y1500 a month. A middle school teacher pulls Y5000-Y9000. Production artists at outsourcing studios in Beijing/Shanghai/Guangzhou are making Y9000-Y15000 at entry level.

There are many evil people in China who will exploit you and offer you work that requires top skills and pay you almost nothing. You know it has always been like that. You need to have the courage and intelligence to get past them and find people who will treat you with respect. Think about what Zhu Geliang did when they needed arrows.

I know times are hard for graduates in China at the moment. Universities are churning out unqualified graduates in every discipline. There are millions of kids desperate for jobs and they will take anything. But ARTIST DON'T WORK FOR MINIMUM WAGE.

[Atreides]

Free wifi at a local place, pirated copy of photoshop and a factory price graphics tablet?
I don't see why they wouldn't have these things.

Because the rest of the world doesn't live in a tidy little bubble of soulless first world consumer bullshit. No offense mate but that is pretty ignorant.

You really think the rest of the world has wifi hotspots all over the place? The only place in China you get free wifi is in a fancy western coffee shop. Outside of trendy areas in mega cities those are pretty thin on the ground. A cup of coffee there will run you Y42 (about $60 in actual spending value in the current US economy).

Factory prices? You imagine that people in China get cheap electronics because the stuff is made there? Think again. Computers, fridges, cars etc are all made from resources bought on the global market for global prices and manufactured by companies that set their prices according to global standards. Chinese companies are rapacious and there are no federal pricing standards or consumer protections of any kind.

Pirated software, yes of course.

[Flake]

There are many evil people in China who will exploit you and offer you work that requires top skills and pay you almost nothing.

Atreides, did you read the thread Elwell linked to?

[Atreides]

Oh,

I thought it was some kid angsting about how they couldn't get decent paying work. I feel pretty dumb now.

[onionface]

We demand higher pay because Cocaine in the first world is hella expensive!

[Maidith]

I apologize for assuming that a $4/h wage equals extreme poverty.
I have very little perspective on what any sum of money, or any wage at all, means in countries outside the EU.

[untier]

Shorinji_Knight: I revere USA's free, fair and unselfish attitude toward this kind of realms very much. And I revere her strongest motivation of CG industry that much too. That is the true kingly way. Appearantly the US is a successful positive pattern of king of CG industry on earth. It seems that It's quite needed to keep the rewards of global submissions higher, because visual art indusry is one of the most important creative lines that refracts human spiritual wisdom. And It's really high demanding on storage of vast knowledge and very hard skill trainings. Artists should really arm together to safeguard their value of harvests. Related companies and markets should respect by others' labors voluntraily as well. This way God is pleased, and everything will be propitious. I'm pround of my country as well, but I'm ashamed of many bad eggs here either. May American CG industry grow greater and greater!

Velocity Kendall: Yeah, I think a full jolly-chap character is in my deep heart. But in reality, my justice-keeper character would be triggered easily too. And its degree varis in a shifting percentage based on what's going on... I undertand your feeling, man. I'm gonna do more reaserchs on details of relations and datas among finance of CG industry.

JDSart: Hi, where are you living?

Atreides: Oh... Are you living in China or doing business in China? You're so right. There are many people here that are very selfish and rapacious nowadays... They themselves would even contest against each other to show off who have the best meants to squeeze more bonus from blood and sweat of innocent people... Uh, I guess many of them have already sold their own souls to demons and resting in hell... So their bodies contain only demons' evil spirits and are not rescualbe yet. I've already given up to save this kind of guys around me... But I hope some powerful people can keep the justice and rescue more innocent and brain-washed folks here...
Many of you may not know how evil they could be. They're not only ungodly, but also keeping a terrible faith that they themselves can create their own heavens and hells if they want to do it. But I think all of them finally believe they can make more money by squeezing other people than building such spaces.... Or else they probably believe what they are doing is right building heavens and hells. Most of these kind of guys are really really silly, dumb and soulless. But they ain't aware of that, and they must think if people who have resources like theirs don't do things following the way they're doing, these people must be fools...

Moreover, you can see how hard it is, if you're running your own business here and you're going to keep your hands clean... Rejection and reprisal may be very active... Ok, I'd better stop talking so now. I'm SURROUNDED by them! A few of the deepest evil guys may back attact me! God bless me...

But there's another situation, if the labors are working for our local media, the salary which is accordant to the local average salary is fine. There are lots of honest employers too. But I'm sure the vilains have methods to plunder from labors too. Because some of the regulations they made are elastic...


Haidith: Never mind.

[Sushy]

I sometimes wish I lived in a country where $4 per hour is a fortune. Seriously in the Netherlands you can barely afford anything then. I mean, you may be able to pay for food, but how do you pay for health insurance and rent then? heh?
It would be nice if the minimum wages everywhere are the same. :V

[untier]

Hi, Sushy. There're distinctly dfferent enjoyments between two places that have significant diviation of development level in fact. That could involve environmental matters, health of miscellaneous service systems, entertainment facilities, luxury of public facilities, medical conditions, health of legal systems, social welfares and even resident's moral qualities( this can't be applied to everybody though, it impacts most of people more or less). In my opinion many of the towns in our country are like wild places compared to our city...and some scenes of them can arouse my memory of lagged images in my childhood here. I mean even if I can live those places with the higher wage level in norway, I will never decide to settle there... I emphasize it again that this is only my personal opinion, and I'm sure there are other individuals who love that kind of surroundings... Certainly if you really have a special affection to a place, you can live there leisurely nomatter how under-developed it is. If you love to enjoy a better living condition, it's not unfair to pay for it with some extra money.

As for the global employment on internet, there's another virtuous circle abstractively. For example, between the US and China. The US appeals more good artists overseas, then her CG industry will grow bigger faster. Americans will get greater capacity to feed more artists. China's media and related departments will be thirsty of talented labors, they will have to raise the rewards high to get those lost artists back. Then the whole salary systems of CG in the two countries will become similar. Promotion completed. Yet in fact principles are more complicated... And it seems CG work forces here are relatively steady, or are not overloaded in the US.

[JDSart]

@Untier. I´m from Caracas, Venezuela
----

I think i misspoke in the small fortune part, i meant it more like "small fortune compared to the average salaries that are earned around here" I didn´t meant a lower salary is sufficient for more things. If you don´t find ways to earn more then you are pushed back into extreme poverty as a big part of our population living in slums will show. That´s the reason companies find it so profitable to outsource, people overseas get paid lots less than the first world counterparts yet is still more than what they earn locally so theres always offer.

We have inflation to the roof, i said something about the street price of dollar because though is there is a regulated price pretty much everything moves in relation to the black market one, and everything is imported, so everything is super expensive. The only thing that is cheaper than everywhere else is gasoline, you can fill up a tank with less than a dollar but buying a car is another thing, that is a small fortune.

It is a high cost of living that is not justified in public services, sanitation, cough* safety etc.

Just as a random example. The minimun wage is 2000 bsf, the Wii U costs around 9000 bsf.

That f after bs means fuerte, which is just a couple ceros removed to add makeup to the devaluation, its actually millions instead of thousands