Breaking Gender Roles

[Velocity Kendall]

" Are there any authors that you like who maybe aren't well known? "

Kilgore Trout.

[Zombie_chinchilla]

So I saw this, and thought of this thread. I hope it hasn't been mentioned, and I apologized if it has, I haven't really been reading.

Sarah Robles is an Olympic weight lifting athlete, and she weighs over 130 lbs. Definitely a different body type from what most super heroes are, but I think she could kick some ass as a super hero.

[JFierce]

Ya know I'd actually be curious on a statistic that shows the number of writers with the same gender as their main character. Just a curiosity since it's probably easier to get into the mind of the same gender. There's plenty that do break that mold, hell the writers of Avatar the Last Airbender series just cast a pretty mold breaking main character. With their most recent series obviously.

But that may be a thought to explain some of it. Since a comic unlike a book is rather hard to pull off alone. With a book you can write by yourself, everything can be done by you with out the need for multiple skill sets. Some crazy action scene or grand setting you can just write it to life not draw it all. To do a comic though, not only do you have to do pretty pictures and have all the knowledge that entails, you have to make the pretty pictures a narrative, then be able to tell a story and all the skills that come with writing. It's not an easy thing to learn. That's why usually you have full staffs of people working on it. Even in eastern comics like Manga's you have a few staff helpers. But with plenty of examples on how it's a pretty male dominated industry means it's probably just not easy to get the resources and people together and have someone publish it.


But actually that makes me think a bit..... since Manga's tend to break character and gender roles in many comics. You can find any kind of story with all sorts of characters. Though sure there's plenty of perverted shit in japan but there's actually a lot that aren't and that makes me wonder if it's because the production is easier. Manga's are produced weekly by a staff of just a few people and often the artist is the author. There's tons of One Shots where publishers are in the mindset of "Hey we'll throw it out there in a weekly jump or something and see how it does".

[dpaint]

As for science fiction or fantasy masterwork - I'm certainly open to suggestions (and honestly, as long is it's a good story that's fine too. I COULD TOTALLY USE MORE BOOKS.) Are there any authors that you like who maybe aren't well known?

Read the first 20 Hugo winners for best novel if you haven't already, there are some great books in that list.

My favorites are, in no particular order

Demolished Man Alfred Bester

A case of Conscience James Blish

Dorsai Gordon Dickson

Canticle For Liebowitz Walter Miller

Way Station Clifford Simak

Witch World Andre Norton

Man in the High Castle Phillip Dick

Sword of Aldones Marion Zimmer Bradley

Lord of Light Roger Zelazny

Stand on Zanzibar John Brunner

Jack of Shadows Roger Zelazny

The left Hand of Darkness Ursela Le Guin

The Lathe of Heaven Ursela Le Guin

If I had to only pick a few; these stand out from a list of award winners

A Case of Conscience
Demolished man
Left Hand of Darkness
Man in the High Castle

[Alice Herring]

Read the first 20 Hugo winners for best novel if you haven't already, there are some great books in that list.

My favorites are, in no particular order

Demolished Man Alfred Bester

A case of Conscience James Blish

Dorsai Gordon Dickson

Canticle For Liebowitz Walter Miller

Way Station Clifford Simak

Witch World Andre Norton

Man in the High Castle Phillip Dick

Sword of Aldones Marion Zimmer Bradley

Lord of Light Roger Zelazny

Stand on Zanzibar John Brunner

Jack of Shadows Roger Zelazny

The left Hand of Darkness Ursela Le Guin

The Lathe of Heaven Ursela Le Guin

If I had to only pick a few; these stand out from a list of award winners

A Case of Conscience
Demolished man
Left Hand of Darkness
Man in the High Castle

....how have I not read these books? The ones I looked up sound amazing! Thanks D! (I'd even completely forgotten about Blish - and one of my favorite books as a kid was Cities in Flight!)

[Arshes Nei]

But actually that makes me think a bit..... since Manga's tend to break character and gender roles in many comics. You can find any kind of story with all sorts of characters. Though sure there's plenty of perverted shit in japan but there's actually a lot that aren't and that makes me wonder if it's because the production is easier. Manga's are produced weekly by a staff of just a few people and often the artist is the author. There's tons of One Shots where publishers are in the mindset of "Hey we'll throw it out there in a weekly jump or something and see how it does".

Although manga is not without its cliches and stereotypes as well. Manga are obviously comics. The difference is, Manga tends to tell stories (which means even if they run for years) which means they'll have a start to finish. US superhero comics tend to be a series/serial.

[kev ferrara]

"a terrible indictment of our civilizational common sense. "

I know you don't believe climate change is real kev, or the models dont come up to your exacting specifications, or whatever

First of all... do not, please please please, do not paraphrase me unless you are absolutely sure you have understood what I wrote originally and remembered it correctly. I was just starting to like you again.

Secondly, I am 100% behind decarbonization. The question is, how best to do it. I believe in disruptive technologies. I don't believe in politicians, or carbon trading schemes, protocols nobody will follow, or panicking.

Thirdly, how the earth deals with CO2, sinks, outgassing, feedbacks, whether CO2 lags or leads long term temperature trends and so much more is simply not well understood, despite what pop scare-science/activist agit-shock articles say.

This was an inappropriate thread to bring any of this up.

[tobbA]

I'm fairly certainly Pride and Prejudice is NOT an adventure story. I actually don't like Jane Austen, but thanks for the recommendation. As for science fiction or fantasy masterwork - I'm certainly open to suggestions (and honestly, as long is it's a good story that's fine too. I COULD TOTALLY USE MORE BOOKS.) Are there any authors that you like who maybe aren't well known?

Mistborn by Brandon Sanderson has a female lead that I think would fit with your description. It's a pretty good series too.

[Kamber Parrk]

* * * Either way, there were some interesting thoughts in the book. (Not sure I agree with all of them, but still interesting.)

Well, there you go! Not being sure of agreeing with Gladwell is a very good thing. It's a symptom of critical thinking about to occur-- always a good thing when you run across commenters of his ilk.

[He's to the social sciences what Betty Edwards is to neuroscience. . .]

http://malcolmgladwellbookgenerator.com/

[SigonWulf]

So I saw this, and thought of this thread. I hope it hasn't been mentioned, and I apologized if it has, I haven't really been reading.

Sarah Robles is an Olympic weight lifting athlete, and she weighs over 130 lbs. Definitely a different body type from what most super heroes are, but I think she could kick some ass as a super hero.

It's possible. It would come down to training really. The thing is she might look different if she trains to kick ass. It would depend a lot on what she was going for. It's one of those things that we could never really know but could argue about it all day long.

[Candra H]

Both the girl in the above picture, along with the boxer? a couple pages ago, and those polo players several pages back could easily kick arse, if they were that way inclined. They're bulky yes, but not fat or unhealthy. They've clearly trained hard to get to the stage they're at in their sport, and it's easy to tell the difference between health and flab.

But thats not really what I came in here to say. Just wanted to get that bit out of the way because of the above post triggering the thought in my mind.

What I really wanted to say as a female is, men like looking at women's tits and I like looking at men's torsos and arses. Preferably naked but... well, I'll take what I can get.

I also havent read that many comics so I probably don't get the dissatisfaction with impossibly girly girl heroines that I should. My comic book style reading to date consists of one 2000AD, Watchmen, Button Man and The Killing Joke. I've read a few webcomic bits and pieces too but nothing in the superhero genre. And to be honest, if I come across artwork or storylines that portray females in a subordinate or weakling light, it doesn't make me want to rage against the comic machine or change the world, it just makes me snort a little at the idiocy of the folks who produced it. No offense to anyone who produces that kind of thing by the way, heh.

Also, I think a lot of the stereotypes that pigeonhole both men and women are only concrete because we as a society make them that way. If people don't like how their gender is being portrayed, then behave differently and buck the trend. Whats that saying, be the change you want to see in the world? I know I've never seen myself as a girly girl - I don't go loopy over shoes or shopping and am much happier holding a chainsaw or axe than a handbag. I work out and try to live and eat healthy, not because I want to look good but because I want to be strong enough to handle whatever life throws at me. So I don't behave at odds with how I perceive myself, and to be honest when I see women complaining about how poorly they're portrayed in the media or anywhere else, as sex symbols or objects of the male gaze etc, while at the same time wearing make-up, short skirts and high heels to enhance their physical appearance, it just makes me cringe because it's a double standard.

Anyway, that was all probably unnecessary rambling on my part but I felt the need to say it. No offense intened to anyone, male or female, by it, just adding my two bob's worth to the pot.

[Velocity Kendall]

Read the first 20 Hugo winners for best novel if you haven't already, there are some great books in that list.

My favorites are, in no particular order

Demolished Man Alfred Bester

A case of Conscience James Blish

Dorsai Gordon Dickson

Canticle For Liebowitz Walter Miller

Way Station Clifford Simak

Witch World Andre Norton

Man in the High Castle Phillip Dick

Sword of Aldones Marion Zimmer Bradley

Lord of Light Roger Zelazny

Stand on Zanzibar John Brunner

Jack of Shadows Roger Zelazny

The left Hand of Darkness Ursela Le Guin

The Lathe of Heaven Ursela Le Guin

If I had to only pick a few; these stand out from a list of award winners

A Case of Conscience
Demolished man
Left Hand of Darkness
Man in the High Castle

Theyre all excellent but I would choose the Lathe of Heaven and Lord of Light for sheer suckerpunch awesomeness. Theres a really decent TV movie from the 70s of Lathe of Heaven I like a lot too. Its on Youtube.

And A Canticle for Liebowitz is one of the most impressive books Ive read of any genre.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Science-Fict.../2RD0U28BH3K5V

Oh BTW Alice, in a serious answer to your question: " Are there any authors that you like who maybe aren't well known? " Cordwainer Smith. Best ever.

[Velocity Kendall]

First of all... do not, please please please, do not paraphrase me unless you are absolutely sure you have understood what I wrote originally and remembered it correctly. I was just starting to like you again.

Secondly, I am 100% behind decarbonization. The question is, how best to do it. I believe in disruptive technologies. I don't believe in politicians, or carbon trading schemes, protocols nobody will follow, or panicking.

Thirdly, how the earth deals with CO2, sinks, outgassing, feedbacks, whether CO2 lags or leads long term temperature trends and so much more is simply not well understood, despite what pop scare-science/activist agit-shock articles say.

This was an inappropriate thread to bring any of this up.

Fair enough.

These guys are pretty big but fight pretty good

[tobbA]

Both the girl in the above picture, along with the boxer? a couple pages ago, and those polo players several pages back could easily kick arse, if they were that way inclined. They're bulky yes, but not fat or unhealthy. They've clearly trained hard to get to the stage they're at in their sport, and it's easy to tell the difference between health and flab.

Well. She might be good at pulling punches or causing general mayhem (if we're talking from a superhero perspective) but having a lot of bulk doesn't make you very flexble. If she was a superhero I'd think she'd be the slow but powerful type...

[Arshes Nei]

Well. She might be good at pulling punches or causing general mayhem (if we're talking from a superhero perspective) but having a lot of bulk doesn't make you very flexble. If she was a superhero I'd think she'd be the slow but powerful type...

She's not bulky though...not really. That's like saying Bruce Lee is bulky

[SigonWulf]

Well. She might be good at pulling punches or causing general mayhem (if we're talking from a superhero perspective) but having a lot of bulk doesn't make you very flexble. If she was a superhero I'd think she'd be the slow but powerful type...

I'd be worried about her gassing quickly. All that extra weight typical leads to no gas in the tank, whether its muscle or fat. Also you really need speed and flexibility. Power is great but if your opponent out maneuvers you and picks you apart all that power will be worthless.

Also I think its a bit sad that we've been reduced to argue over fat and muscle, which is right which is wrong when there are bigger problems in the comic industry. Like how the storylines never seem to move forward and Marvel has the huge obsession of just reproducing the same thing over and over again. Cap dies, then cap comes game. Spiderman reveals his true identity, then some deity erases everyone's mind. Jean dies and everyone rejoices, now their trying to bring in a new Jean. Eff you Marvel you're not going to distract me with boobs, I see your terrible writing.

[Candra H]

That'll be because I was talking about those girls in reality, not how they'd perform in the pages of a comic.

I'm not a fan so I'll leave the sad nitpicking about bulk versus wind to the comic geeks.

[MidgardSerpent]

Also I think its a bit sad that we've been reduced to argue over fat and muscle, which is right which is wrong when there are bigger problems in the comic industry. Like how the storylines never seem to move forward and Marvel has the huge obsession of just reproducing the same thing over and over again. Cap dies, then cap comes game. Spiderman reveals his true identity, then some deity erases everyone's mind. Jean dies and everyone rejoices, now their trying to bring in a new Jean. Eff you Marvel you're not going to distract me with boobs, I see your terrible writing.

I don't like characters dying and coming back over and over again either, but one could make an argument of it befitting a character like Jean Grey.

And it's very silly singling Marvel out for your rant, Dc (among others) is equally as guilty of rebooting, retconning, and sexually exploiting their franchises. Especially considering we're about a year in with a massive reboot of all their titles.

[LightandDark]

Honestly half of the comic book super-heroines look like they have silicon boobs which is the opposite of attractive for me. I also think that feminine women with a full figure can be very attractive.

Then again you also have male depictions in comics that are also equally idealized with some sort of god-like muscular physic, good looks and almost hairless body.
The only Superhero that breaks that stereotype AFAIK is Wolverine with his hairy arms and less than ideal looks (before he was Hue-Jackmaned that is) and people still like him.

So if you like to break all the stereotypes and create a super-heroine that defy the predictable stereotypes go for it (like Brawne Lamia in Hyperion, and Hyperion did very well for a science-fiction novel).

For the rest I think there are not enough female feminists that are into making comic books and care enough to make their hot female protagonists slightly overweight or stocky.

I think its a discussion about nothing because really its something no one really cares to change much.
You could say its like feminists calling to males to give them control while in reality most of them probably wouldn't be interested in dating someone submissive who did not at least offer to pay for them in the end.

[MidgardSerpent]

Then again you also have male depictions in comics that are also equally idealized with some sort of god-like muscular physic, good looks and almost hairless body.
The only Superhero that breaks that stereotype AFAIK is Wolverine with his hairy arms and less than ideal looks (before he was Hue-Jackmaned that is) and people still like him.

Sasquatch, Puck, and Beast are all very hairy.

For the rest I think there are not enough female feminists that are into making comic books and care enough to make their hot female protagonists slightly overweight or stocky.

I present to you.... BIG BERTHA!

[LightandDark]

Sasquatch, Puck, and Beast are all very hairy.

Heh but most of them represent an edgy unique minority and are mostly condemned for these traits as weakness.

Wolverine's weakness is his bad temper and sordid past.

And Bertha: we are not talking about one dimensional characters who can only be described as very obese (female counterpart of the blob from x-men) + Big Bertha's natural form is that of a skinny supermodel called Ashley Crawford so again its not really an example.
Obesity is unhealthy on either male or female(can cause various physical problems) and it falls under a different category than just being fat.

[Arshes Nei]

Well there is Granny Goodness and Big Barda.

Big Barda was intentionally made to counter a stereotype comics.

[SigonWulf]

I don't like characters dying and coming back over and over again either, but one could make an argument of it befitting a character like Jean Grey.

And it's very silly singling Marvel out for your rant, Dc (among others) is equally as guilty of rebooting, retconning, and sexually exploiting their franchises. Especially considering we're about a year in with a massive reboot of all their titles.

I never liked Jean. I'll never like Jean. I think she is a very boring character and was very happy when they killed her off. But that is my opinion. I'm sure others would disagree.

I don't keep up with DC. That's why I singled out Marvel. And honestly dude we can branch out of comics into other media that do the exact same thing. I just ragged on Marvel alone because that's what I know. And I don't hate Marvel or anything like that. I'm just ragging on them.

[Arshes Nei]

I never liked Jean. I'll never like Jean. I think she is a very boring character and was very happy when they killed her off. But that is my opinion. I'm sure others would disagree.

Jean Grey was a tool to further the male personalities in the comic. The only time she was interesting was the Phoenix Saga.

[MidgardSerpent]

And Bertha: we are not talking about one dimensional characters who can only be described as very obese (female counterpart of the blob from x-men) + Big Bertha's natural form is that of a skinny supermodel called Ashley Crawford so again its not really an example.
Obesity is unhealthy on either male or female(can cause various physical problems) and it falls under a different category than just being fat.

I'm actually a bit surprised she even exists and there isn't more of an uproar about her. I mean, she's just so crass as a character. It's like a pretty bad, offensive joke. Probably too much of a niche hero for people to care.

I never liked Jean. I'll never like Jean. I think she is a very boring character and was very happy when they killed her off. But that is my opinion. I'm sure others would disagree.

Grant Morrison actually tried to change things a bit by killing off Jean and making Cyclops and Emma a steady couple. And it lasted a good awhile, for about 10+ years. But they're rebooting it again with the Marvel Now event! Quite ironic since one of his main points in New X-men was trying to forward and leave the past (Jean) behind.

I don't keep up with DC. That's why I singled out Marvel. And honestly dude we can branch out of comics into other media that do the exact same thing. I just ragged on Marvel alone because that's what I know. And I don't hate Marvel or anything like that. I'm just ragging on them.

Allrighty then, if it's all the same to you.

[Arshes Nei]

I'm actually a bit surprised she even exists and there isn't more of an uproar about her. I mean, she's just so crass as a character. It's like a pretty bad, offensive joke. Probably too much of a niche hero for people to care.

http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/c.../bertha/01.jpg



http://cobblerkhan.blogspot.com/2009...this-dojo.html

[Jason Ross]

Be careful in equating size to fight ability.

[HolyGrail]

Religion, gender ideals, politics, we are really touching on some sensitive topics here. Pretty sure we all need a lot more beer in order to effectively discuss such hard hitting issues.

[Naidy]

I was going to say something really thoughtful then I saw the tags.

Have none of you stopped to realise there is some stranger asking for help down there?
They've probably died from a bowel obstruction by now.
We could have saved a life here, guys.


But really, the only thing that gets me in comics is when I see galls with MASSIVE tits jumping around with no support up there. Let me tell you, that'd hurt so bad you'd be keeling over before anyone even had a chance to hit you.

[Alice Herring]

For the rest I think there are not enough female feminists that are into making comic books and care enough to make their hot female protagonists slightly overweight or stocky.

I think its a discussion about nothing because really its something no one really cares to change much.
You could say its like feminists calling to males to give them control while in reality most of them probably wouldn't be interested in dating someone submissive who did not at least offer to pay for them in the end.

*facepalm*