Breaking Gender Roles

[Steamhat]

Am not sure if posting this here would be appropriate but i think a few of you may enjoy partaking in this.

http://kxhara.deviantart.com/journal...hero-315317673

It's a competition to design a superheroine with non-stereotypical design...

but i'm more interested to discuss what people feel is more appropriate, noting the actual motivation for this contest. Do SuperHeroins need to actually be more female-adonis type beings or should there be more lee-way in their shape.

i am fully aware that this is obviously sexist, it's wrong to declare that comic readers only designate a single look as attractive and acceptable, it's offensive to both genders for the pressure and the assumption. But i'd like to know if people believe that the legacy of comics is more important than a development like this.

[littlebones]

If the legacy of comics depends on sexist, manchild-fantasy depictions of women, it's a pretty poor legacy. They are about more than that and they can be better.

This contest rules.

[Steamhat]

I KNOW RIGHT!? xDDD

well yeah, and at the same time comics are making great strides, there being gay characters popping up all over these days...

but the female archetyping needs to be countered... badly.
at least X-Men usually make a large range of character types. also at least internal struggle and understanding is harnessed greatly throughout modern comics, representing good logic in characters (see RUNAWAYS)

[Beeston]

I've been planning for a little while now to do a Female Frazetta Death-dealer. Haven't gotten around to it yet though.

[Farvus]

I think whole superhero/superheroine concept leads to such sterotypes. I grew up reading european comics and never really experienced lack of variety in female characters. Mainly beacause there are many different stories and not neccessarily about idealised modern day warriors fighting with organised crime or some other evil force.

Also I don't understand why the main chosen approach for breaking stereotype is that you need to go for completely opposite of slim character. Superhero usually needs to be pretty fit in order to face dangers and enemies so being fat is not the first option. I would be into more subtle differences in look (or just leave the superhero stories altogether and focus on telling story about normal people experiencing unusual situation).

[Star Eater]

Also I don't understand why the main chosen approach for breaking stereotype is that you need to go for completely opposite of slim character. Superhero usually needs to be pretty fit in order to face dangers and enemies so being fat is not the first option.

Remember though, deviantart is involved here.

[littlebones]

I would just be happy if they made it look like their female superheroes had spines, and internal organs...

Honestly though, strong people don't necessarily have to be slim. Look at Holley Mangold, for example! I wouldn't want to rumble with her, and I think a female hero with her physique would be awesome and definitely something different.

Let artists reference their poses from Olympic athletes, not porn stars.

[Maidith]

Superhero usually needs to be pretty fit in order to face dangers and enemies so being fat is not the first option.

You haven't met Agatha Trunchbull.

[Farvus]

You haven't met Agatha Trunchbull.

Haha. Yeah.
By fat I mostly mean the amount of fat vs amount of muscle. There are people with different size of body frame and all can be athletic.

Let artists reference their poses from Olympic athletes, not porn stars.

By the way something on the topic. Check this link - http://ninamatsumoto.wordpress.com/2...e-for-artists/

[Arshes Nei]

Although a manga/game design I kinda appreciated this look



Sure there's the boobs, but she still looks like she can break your back.

[Steamhat]

well if you read through the competition it's noted that you may translate 'fat' as you please... they're just going for non-conventional.

though i agree that yes, fitness means a lack of fat, but really, all i'm wishing for is to see some actual body bulk as opposed to skinlings.

But hey, i personally am a Frazetta man... so gimme the hips!

I seem to recall, with some regrets, that GLEE had a non-conventional in it's second season or something... and she was not actually all that hideous

[vineris]

Also I don't understand why the main chosen approach for breaking stereotype is that you need to go for completely opposite of slim character. Superhero usually needs to be pretty fit in order to face dangers and enemies so being fat is not the first option. I would be into more subtle differences in look (or just leave the superhero stories altogether and focus on telling story about normal people experiencing unusual situation).

Since the whole point is that they all have superpowers, they don't all need to be fit. Professor X is in a wheelchair, for fuck's sake. There can be whole battalions of fat telepaths, or anyone whose powers depend on their mind. I stopped reading superhero comics in the late 1990s but there used to be quite a variety of body shapes on the supervillain side, especially in the more humorous titles.

But that's the thing across all media, isn't it. You can't be a heroine unless you're fairly conventionally attractive. We can't have ugly people on the teevee except on government-subsidized channels.

Edit: But you know what? Fuck mainstream superhero comics, they're practically irrelevant except as excuses for Time Warner to go make a movie. There's an indie comic for whatever floats your boat. If you want to read comics with plump ladies try Strangers in Paradise or Love and Rockets.

[HolyGrail]

Superheriones are constrained by the same media standards as every other female. Whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant, but (US) society has come up with its own depiction of what women should be and artists aren't immune to wanting to idealize their heroines.

That said, as the Manga character illustrated, this isn't required in order to create a good character, it's just what people naturally gravitate toward.

[Voodoo_Mama]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but since its about diferent heroines
Am I the only here who has seen "Who Wants to be a Superheroe" Cx
Does any one remember Fat Momma, she was awesome

lol

[Beeston]

Maybe a bit off-topic, but since its about diferent heroines
Am I the only here who has seen "Who Wants to be a Superheroe" Cx
Does any one remember Fat Momma, she was awesome

lol

I can hear the torches and pitchforks of the anti-stereotype brigade...

[Arshes Nei]

Less of this:


http://img2.timeinc.net/instyle/imag...Secret-623.jpg

More of this:

http://www.barzey.com/wp-content/upl...veCampaign.jpg

And even some of this (older people)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kK8V1j62sY...up+diverse.jpg

[QueenGwenevere]

You don't have to be skinny and curvaceous to be "fit". There's plenty of big burly women in the real world who could whoop anyone's ass, and they'd make great characters.

This is why I've always loved the Akira manga - it features a big burly middle-aged lady who can beat up anybody with guns, rocket-launchers, tanks, or her bare hands. LOVE LOVE LOVE that character. Bonus points, it also has what is essentially a little old lady with whoop-ass superpowers saving the world.

I could do with lots more middle-aged and older people, personally. I'm sick of comics and manga where the entire cast is 15 - 20. (I know, I know, it appeals to 15 year olds, but come on...)

[Voodoo_Mama]

I can hear the torches and pitchforks of the anti-stereotype brigade...

hmm I don't know if she was based on a stereotype or not, since I didn't grew up in the Us or in Canada, there are some stereotypes in this parts that I didn't know existed, that are only in these countries. But the show was a reality show, and she made it into the final 3, which is why she got a cover.

[bcarman]

I hate discussions like this. This is not about perception but the young boner marketplace. Size often has nothing to do with athleticism. Arguably the fittest olympians are water polo athletes. Having anti contests only serve to point more to the original prejudice.

[Arshes Nei]

I hate discussions like this. This is not about perception but the young boner marketplace. Size often has nothing to do with athleticism. Arguably the fittest olympians are water polo athletes. Having anti contests only serve to point more to the original prejudice.

Well one of the things that makes me feel sad is when you have to applaud and point out good characters because of the abundance of the same old same old.

IE. Having to applaud having a character like Lin BeiFong in Legend of Korra because she's not the stereotype of young kids kicking ass. Yet there's always a wise old monk/kung fu male master/fat drunk guy who knows how to kick butt etc... Should it really have been that hard to extend it to a female character? The way the market is...yeah it's kinda like...wtf.

[Farvus]

Since the whole point is that they all have superpowers, they don't all need to be fit. Professor X is in a wheelchair, for fuck's sake. There can be whole battalions of fat telepaths, or anyone whose powers depend on their mind. I stopped reading superhero comics in the late 1990s but there used to be quite a variety of body shapes on the supervillain side, especially in the more humorous titles.

Wait. This is why I wrote "usually".

I've read more carefully the contest description and at first glance that Batwoman piece seemed typical attractive female comic character. To my surprise it was described as fat and not fitting the industry standard... well. Not really much to talk about. This is one of the many reasons why I don't read superhero comic. Luckily I got many alternatives.

[Alice Herring]

I hate discussions like this. This is not about perception but the young boner marketplace. Size often has nothing to do with athleticism. Arguably the fittest olympians are water polo athletes. Having anti contests only serve to point more to the original prejudice.

I had to like this just because you mentioned water-polo

[Alice Herring]

Wait. This is why I wrote "usually".

I've read more carefully the contest description and at first glance that Batwoman piece seemed typical attractive female comic character. To my surprise it was described as fat and not fitting the industry standard... well. Not really much to talk about. This is one of the many reasons why I don't read superhero comic. Luckily I got many alternatives.

yeah....I have mixed feelings about it. I don't think she was fat by any means, but the drawing wasn't particularly appealing either.

[vineris]

Wait. This is why I wrote "usually".

But I don't think that it's even "usually". We're talking about a whole race of magicians. The only ones that have to be athletic are those who fight physically.

Out of the whole roster of female X-men, for example, only 6 out of 39 have physical powers like super-strength or super-speed (that aren't related to shape-shifting). That's a very small minority. The rest of 'em could easily sit on their collective ass and lob fireballs into battle.

But since, as bcarman said, it's all about who's wanking to what, it hardly matters. Nobody's going to point out that Emma Frost can't fight in lingerie, much less toss her for someone who makes sense. I say don't worry about it, it's so easy to make and distribute a comic online these days that everybody's growing their own.

[Psychotime]

yeah....I have mixed feelings about it. I don't think she was fat by any means, but the drawing wasn't particularly appealing either.

These were some other images she had made to show at Comic-Con.

[link] [link] [link]

Not really relevant, though.

[keeptime]

Batwoman doesn't seem consistent with her style. Am I wrong to think there might have been some heavy referencing going on? I feel like something's missing from this story. It doesn't seem right that she would present this and the first thing out of a professional's mouth was "She's fat, go away until you're drawing exactly like the rest of us".

[Arshes Nei]

She was at SDCC and the tumblr mentions that she isn't the best artist...it was http://manboobmaiden.tumblr.com/post...-book-industry

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/2...drawn-based-on

She mentions it was the piece she got the most flack for, so obviously she has other pieces she submitted.

“Her breasts are much too small and do not have the lift that superhero women should have. Her jawline is fat and her neck much too long. The style of her hair is clunky and does not flow in a sense that a super human would. Her hips, waist and thighs are too big and she honestly looks fat. No one is going to want to read a comic with a fat female protagonist. I honestly recommend looking at issues of Sport’s Illustrated to get the right anatomy. Those women are the peak of human perfection, and that is what we want in this industry.”

[Jason Ross]

Beautiful. The older I got the more gorgeous this physique became to me.

[dpaint]

Yeah, because people who look like this and don't compete professionally are so attractive with their heart disease, type 2 diabetes, cancer, arthritis and sleep apnea, all before their 40. Since over one third of America is obese lets make all the media reflect that, so fat, unhealthy people can feel good about being that way. Its so American.

[Star Eater]

I like fat chicks.