Learning to learn to draw...

[Rod.F]

But if you told someone to take guitar and play, he could play (even if it was just random sounds), and the more he played he would notice that some sounds sound better together and changing how he held the guitar would produce different sounds and it's very likely it would be lots of fun (it was for me at least) and who knows, maybe learn to play by ear even.
And that would be a platform for that person to then study further.

Guys my bottom line now is: if you find a concrete, pragmatical and empathetic approach to teach someone drawing, then by all means do it!
Someone agreed with me that, untill now, such a structured approach still isn't favoured; maybe because drawing heavily relies on our brain abilities and trillions of other feats and it would be really difficult to encompass all these fields in your teachings.

[Whirly]

I think at the point it is the analogy that breaks down rather than the methodology.

"for someone who knows all of this. For someone who went through the whole process." Ha! have you seen my sketchbook?

[Elwell]

The usual "just draw" instead, translates into "I've discovered everything by trial and error, why should I share my observations and approaches with you?". Thus becoming a kind of closed attituted which won't help art, discussion and growth.

Translates to you, viewed through the lens of your own ignorance. But just because that's what you're hearing doesn't mean that's what's being said.

[Rod.F]

Translates to you, viewed through the lens of your own ignorance. But just because that's what you're hearing doesn't mean that's what's being said.

A beginner entering any field is necessarly ignorant about that subject; or it would be a teacher don't you agree?
Clearly ignorance, is the principle of wiseness, when accompanied by curiosity.

I've never been at art school but do you guys confirm me that for one, two or three years, the teachers there will reapeat you "just draw"? Every day? Every hour of lesson?... Maybe in an abstract sense yes, but I'm sure not in a pragmatical way.

So what I'm just saying is that "just draw", is a suggestion devoid of any generosity and patience. It's blunt, and it won't help very much a super beginner, in my humble opinion.

[Elwell]

I've never been at art school but do you guys confirm me that for one, two or three years, the teachers there will reapeat you "just draw"? Every day? Every hour of lesson?

No, of course not. In a face-to-face situation, what one person needs at a particular time can be judged and given, and may be totally different from what somebody else needs to hear. This is part of the problem with students passing along advice from their teachers, or, even worse, second/third hand advice. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. That's why, when somebody asks for advice in a general, abstract way, especially in an impersonal format like an internet forum, the safest thing to say is "draw more."

[Elwell]

And anyway, Whirly answered your initial question back in post #26. You break down the big, scary, seemingly insurmountable problem ("how do I learn to draw?") into lots and lots of little problems. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what else to say.

[Whirly]

Clearly ignorance, is the principle of wiseness, when accompanied by curiosity.

Umm, sorry?

Hopefully the responses are not seeming too terse. It can be frustrating trying to tackle these sorts of questions but if it helps in any way these questions and problems you are having are EXACTLY what I went through and countless others. I know how you are feeling. The things that are feeling really cloudy for you will become clear the more you draw. You feel desperate for direction but really there really is not such a clear direction. Its frustrating at first but you will come to love that fact soon enough. You just have to draw lots and solve problems you are having as they become apparent to you (or apparent to other people through crit from the forum).

Once that cloudiness passes and you are drawing and having fun, just as a warning, new frustrating questions will appear about how and what to do and no matter how much you you think otherwise the way to solve them will almost always be with a pencil and a piece of paper and not a book or a written solution.

[Rod.F]

And anyway, Whirly answered your initial question back in post #26. You break down the big, scary, seemingly insurmountable problem ("how do I learn to draw?") into lots and lots of little problems. If that's not enough for you, I don't know what else to say.

It's more than enough; the discussion is helping me to understand how other artists feel and have felt at the beginning.

Thanks for having the patience to elaborate these concepts.

As I said, I had and have no access to "live" teaching and I'm so eager to know and learn whatever I can about it.

[QueenGwenevere]

The way you would learn from a teacher would involve "just drawing" a lot of the time, with personalized advice from the teacher as needed.

If you take a drawing class, the way it typically works is that the teacher may give some general tips, and then have the students go draw something. Then the teacher looks at the individual students' drawings, and gives each student individual critiques and advice based on what they've drawn. Then the teacher has the students draw some more. Rinse and repeat.

There are no universal teaching formulas, and no one learning path that works for everyone, and no one here can tell you what's going to work for you, you just have to try things. There's always a certain amount of give and take between individual teachers and individual students, with the teacher essentially acting as a coach.

You might be able to get a similar process by studying a variety of books and tutorials, drawing a lot while keeping in mind any potentially useful advice you've found in the books and tutorials, and then posting your drawings in the critique forum for feedback, and then drawing some more while keeping in mind any useful advice you got from critiques...

But at the end of the day, the best way to advance is to practice as much as possible. All the theory and special teaching formulas in the world won't help you if you don't draw. So yeah. Just draw. Draw, make mistakes, try to figure out how to fix the mistakes, consult experts to see if they have any advice for fixing mistakes, draw some more. Keep drawing until there are fewer mistakes. That's pretty much what an art education entails.

[JeffX99]

"Just do it" implies more than just sitting there grinding down a pencil with a bit of drool dampening your page. It implies studying problem areas, reading books on artists and art history, analyzing paintings, drawings, sculptures...it implies figuring out who and what inspires you, what materials and approach suits your vision. And perhaps that is the problem..."just do it" means a helluva lot more than you are aware. IMHO if you aren't engaged in those things you aren't "doing it".

Edit: An excellent book to get you started would be "Drawing Essentials" by Deborah Rockman.

[Rod.F]

"Just do it" implies more than just sitting there grinding down a pencil with a bit of drool dampening your page. It implies studying problem areas, reading books on artists and art history, analyzing paintings, drawings, sculptures...it implies figuring out who and what inspires you, what materials and approach suits your vision. And perhaps that is the problem..."just do it" means a helluva lot more than you are aware. IMHO if you aren't engaged in those things you aren't "doing it".

Edit: An excellent book to get you started would be "Drawing Essentials" by Deborah Rockman.

Thanks for contributing.

That's what I've been doing since I started. Maybe I just needed the confirmation that this lots of studies and research I do, they're just ok.
And that happened. So thanks everybody

[Iso]

Stuff.

Hey, I was looking at your sketchbook and reading all the post in this thread. So if one is supposed to start with fundamentals then what exactly would that person start with? On another note with your abdomen studies, are you drawing these from imagination or using reference and copying what you see to learn the way the human abdomen moves and works.

[Whirly]

Is that a direct quote Iso?

I will try and answer your question but I am but a lowly beginner (should be evident from my SB ) so take with a pinch of salt

You can start how ever you want ... just start simple. Don't jump into complex compositions with interacting characters or anything like that because it will fail on too many levels for you to really address.

So what artists do you like? What do you really like drawing or would really like to be able to draw? Copy (and analyse!) a couple of works you like that don't appear too daunting. Maybe you like drawing mechs but in your copy you struggle to get that sense of space that the original artist did. Here you have answered your question and you need to dig into some perspective study. From life from ref from imagination, learn and apply. Its very very very time consuming but it will be fun too because hey look cool mechs at the end!

Other things that you look at and think well balls look how shoddy my shading looks compared to the original or in the life drawing you have done. Then you set up some simple objects, eg. a lightbulb box you have painted white with a single lamp shining on it and try and match the shading etc etc

About your other question .. those anatomy studies were done for an anatomy course I was on. Im not sure which studies you refer to specifically but some were done as copies from books and some were done using photos and then laying in the anatomy from memory and some were done from imagination as the lecturer spoke so I can get down what he was saying visally. That last one (personal visual lecture notes used for communication, not to look pretty) I have found incredibly useful.

Hope that is helpful is some small way.

[rishenko]

If I was to make a comparison for art, it would be rock climbing. From the outside, it looks simple - just climb a wall and reach the top. I figured there was a perfect methodology all worked out - some system akin to programming or mathematics, or something else with a perfectly stated set of progression.

Nope.

When I started, I was told three things: 1) Lift with your legs. 2) Keep your hips close to the wall. 3) Climb, climb, climb. Wait, what? Shouldn't there be more to it than that? Of course there was, and I would ask a variety of questions:
"How do I build finger strength?"
"How do I go about climbing a 5.10?" (an intermediate route)
and most importantly - "How do I get better?"

The answer to all of those? Watch others, and climb, climb, climb. The rest will come with time.

At first, my climbing was absolute shit. I would wear out super fast and felt as though I wasn't accomplishing anything. My body and mind had to work together and slowly adapt to the rigorous demands placed on them by harder and harder routes. My 'self' had to train itself how to view a route and how to move through it. That required regular practice with only minor improvement. I had problem routes that I would climb again and again and again, each time learning something new about the route and myself. I would try entirely different styles of routes to see how they felt, then return back to my grade and continue to slowly crank through the climbs. I studied others who climbed, tried to mimic their movements and ways of attacking the route.

As I climbed, my fingers built strength. I found that I was relying way too heavily on my arms at the start, and not keep as close to the wall as I should. Over time, I learned how to do proper heel hooks and when I should mantle, when I should match hands, flag my leg out to the side, so on and so forth. Using the above, and many many many hours and days of climbing, I began to slowly progress, starting from routes rated 5.5 to 5.10 (and V2s for bouldering).

I still feel my climbing is shit, and I still have a super long way to go before I will feel accomplished. However, days will pass. Months, years, they will come and go. I know that steady devotion to the art of climbing has and will continue to pay off. It just takes time, dedication, a self-critical eye, and constant effort.

I believe the same concept applies to drawing. There isn't a single, perfect road to perfection. Everybody is different, with different mindsets, innate abilities, and strengths and weaknesses. There are a multitude of ways to reach a varied number of final goals. However, everybody must practice with an eye to improve and tackle little problems - one at a time.

For me, I know that my ability to transfer form, shape, and proportion from what I see to what's on the paper is severely lacking. We won't even talk about my ability to handle light and value. So, that's what I'm practicing. Recognizing basic shapes, how they fit together, and placing them on paper, then adding some more lines and blocks to give a basic amount of detail. I occasionally venture into other things (like practicing a bunch of stuff from ccsears amazing sketchbook), but otherwise it's the grueling run of drawing, criticizing, drawing some more, internalizing, copying others, comparing, criticizing, internalizing, and drawing more.

Good luck, Rod, you can do it.

[Syle]

"Just do it" implies more than just sitting there grinding down a pencil with a bit of drool dampening your page.

HAHAHAHA....oh man, I got some funny ass imagery going through my head when I read that sentence!

Oh man, thanks for that Jeff.

To the OP: someone else said it earlier- you are being too intellectual about it. Just start with the fundamentals, and master them, and then you'll start figuring things out. Even the pros/masters have to return to study their fundamentals from time to time in one way or another; that should tell you something.

"Before Enlightenment chop wood carry water, after Enlightenment, chop wood carry water." -Zen Proverb

"I don't believe in inspiration. I just get to work." -Chuck Close

[bcarman]

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Here is my secret to getting to be a pro, in encapsulated form (typing the entire actual formula would give me carpal tunnel). Each suck, OK, etc. represents a drawing, painting, etc. The funny thing is that you have to have the sucks to get to the goods and eventually greats. The fewer sucks in between goods the closer you come to pro.

But the hardest thing is to recognize the OKs, goods, and greats.

The fastest way to lessen the sucks is to have competent teaching. You can get some of that here by getting crits of your work. This what people mean when they say just draw. They mean just suck. With every piece try to learn something by asking or observing.

I have been teaching for a long time and have met a lot of teachers and seen a lot of teaching. There are as many different methods for learning to draw as there are teachers. Finding the one that works for you by asking in a discussion group like this is iffy at best but is a start.

My students over the years have learned in so many different ways that I give them options for learning. You seem like a rigorous schedule person so set up a schedule. Start right now by doing a hundred contour drawings of different things over the next two days, but fully invest yourself in each and every drawing. Then go back and look at one for five seconds put it away and draw it again from memory.

OK I have given you a secret start to learning to learn to draw.

[Rod.F]

Thanks guys for reporting your own learning experiences!
They're inspiring and interesting to read.