Don't recall it doesn't mean you didn't have it everyone has it
photoshop CS6 has not this sort of new brush engine feature so yes, the "issue" is still there.
Don't recall it doesn't mean you didn't have it everyone has it
photoshop CS6 has not this sort of new brush engine feature so yes, the "issue" is still there.
I didn't recall seeing it on other machines, but I did test my desktop. Don't have it.
Don't have it on my roommate's PC
The only ones I haven't recently retested was an XP laptop and LE1700.
I don't have it too if I'm doing regular strokes heh
but if I force it, I have it on every single computer with any hardware
Try to do very fast strokes
Maybe it has something to do with the way you end a stoke? Remember that the Tablet will register a stroke if the stylus is still within a certain proximity of the tablet.
I expect some tapering due to the lifting of the pen but nothing like the effect you guys are talking about.
well, I don't see any pressure differences on your strokes...
Try again, and this time, obtain a thin-broad-thin stroke with fast movement ( really fast ). Do it many times
I have. Sorry, it doesn't happen to me despite the fact you're insisting it does. I don't get this problem in the Wacom Control panel.
I'll show you then :
On the left, I've done the same strokes as you > no problem at all
On the right, I've done extremely fast strokes > shoelaces here & there
Yep cause you have to touch the tablet and leave it fast too. It's not only putting down the stylus and do a fast stroke( what I've done on the left ).
Well, that's something somewhat natural for me that it does this thing with this particular movement, cause it's mechanical.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not here to complain; this thing doesn't affect me when drawing. I'm just trying to explain that it's mechanical and not something hardware/software related.
Example, I DO get that effect in CS, it's less apparent with smoothing off. However, the one thing I noted with CS is that even though you may have shape dynamics on the first stroke always starts off very round. I don't get tapered edges at the beginning of the stroke but only at the end.
In Painter you can get a tapered stroke very easy. I can somewhat do it in Easy Paint Tool Sai though it seems to do similar just not as bad as CS. In Open Canvas 1.1 I get tapered edges on both ends.
Here is what I get in CS 5
Black is smoothing on
Red is smoothing off
Notice though, no mater what it never tapers off even if I make the stroke light, add more pressure and taper off. It makes a round edge.
@Arshes and funshark
I think as far as the wacom curve scratchboard strokes the issue doesnt exist for arshes and since funshark you've seen it on every machine ever that you think its just arshes isn't doing the strokes right,
I have to beleive its possible that on Arshes' scratchboard strokes it really does not exist and that she was doing the extremely fast strokes.
Although it could also be possible this effect is there and somethings just not showing right,
also @Arshes woha... so you have that effect no matter what in CS 5 with smoothing?
so for instance your wacom properties' strokes could be normal non shoe lacey, but if you open CS 5 on that same machine it'll do that??
So smoothing creates this effect no matter what? even on macs?
The "smoothing" feature therefore is... ridiculous...
and also yes! the beginnings of the strokes are rounded and there is NO full nice pressure stroke like in the brush window example, the ones that SAI's software post processing achieves. So are those perfect strokes just not achievable in photoshop brush tool??? even on macs?
so you can turn off smoothing and get the nice tapering on ONE end but not at the beginning, while SAI and OC can get BOTH tapers and it looks cool and awesome and looks like my tablet works perfectly,
again though Arshes, what machine did you use to make that last image? again, im surpised that the strokes look good in the cruve properties scratchboard and looks bad in CS 5 smoothing on...
OC doesn't taper nor does Sai but it's still better than PS.
I recorded a video under Windows 7 and Mac OS X so you can see the difference using Photoshop (same tablet and same stylus).
I forced of course the bug doing the kind of brush stroke our Wacom does not like. I tried 4 different stylus and the issue is still there. I tried also an old Graphire 2 which produces the same kind of result.
The video start with Windows 7 but you can jump directly where I am using Mac OS X
or for Mac OS users, you can jump to what is possible to do with proper pressure smoothing using SAI.
You will notice the issue seems to concern Mac OS X also in the Wacom properties panel but the problem is not visible in Photoshop. However there is a difference between Windows driver and Mac OS X driver:
On Mac in the "pen feel details" panel, the brush strokes are not displayed as smooth curve.
@ Arshes Nei so now it seems what funshark is saying may be true or your machines are an exception, this is really weird and confusing. But yeah there are alternatives i suppose, doing line work in SAI and transferring to PS for painting.
@ hecartha ........... THANK YOU!!! wow that is like the most amazing post I could've ever hoped for, that is SO extremely helpful and great. Thanks for showing the MAC strokes too. and really? all those styluses too? thanks for being thorough, Also it looks like the MAC OS isn't all that much better in terms of shoelace strokes because I can acheive that in windows with out smoothing on CS5 ... Also looking at the video for OS X on the strokes , they may be smoothly tapered at the ENDS, but they have odd stroke beginnings. SAI has correct beginnings AND ends.
Shockingly... its the same, for Windows and Mac OS X for the Wacom tablet properties test area....like in the GIF you posted. I think the wacom tablet properties test area is important for testing strokes, since its Wacom software only, HOPEFULLY this problem can be fixed by a driver update, that would be so great.
that GIF is verrry useful it shows the driver software test area strokes are the same!
in the GIF, the MAC doesnt have smoothing but... they both have shoelace strokes anyway so... idk what that is about, probably minor.
thanks again hecartha that was extremely helpful and will help me in describing my problem on the Wacom thread.
Also this means that anything in Photshop that is Pen Pressure enabled is also affected by this right? Even if its not just stroke tapering, it still affects Opacity tapering as well and if you have "scattering" set to pen pressure. Disabling smoothing only helps with the ends of strokes and SAI is incredible it actually simulates full pressure capturing in awesome strokes.
I hope you don't mind but I used the image and video in my continuing Wacom thread here: http://forum.wacom.eu/viewtopic.php?...p=37982#p37982
If you want I can remove them ASAP
I cannot think of a better way to explain this problem to Wacom tech... I really hope a solution surfaces soon.
also thanks again, those are really high quality images and the video is really clear too! thanks for taking the time to do that, what screen recording software did you use?
also @ hecartha on your video look at the stroke at "0:26" there is a clear shoelace at the beginning of the stroke. i think that's important.
also at "1:08" on the MAC OS X photoshop cs5 theres another surprising shoelace at the beginning as well...
Last edited by Shahan; April 2nd, 2012 at 03:41 PM.
The problem can be solved with upgrading the stylus cause it is mechanical ( I know I'm repeating myself )
The driver just records what the stylus sends
And yep anything in photoshop is affected by what the driver records.
It's not only a problem of shoelaces -for photoshop -, it's just that it does not smooth the pressure, and offers just a little tiny function to smooth curves... yes, we're in 2012, and painter did that years ago, yay!
do you mean.... upgrade as in... buy a new intuos4 grip pen? or get an art pen? because hecartha tested multiple styluses... or do you mean switch from wacom, does the cintiq have this? or what would really be a cruel joke is that the bamboo doesnt have this or something...
I think I finally get what you mean by mechanical... hmm... I hope its not...
I've been using the flex nib and stroke nib and its slightly different.
and yes, not only the diameter/shape right? that suckkks ... the "shoelaces" glitch the opacity pen pressure and any color or shape pen pressure effects...
Well lets hope in 2012 for Photoshop CS6 and NEW Wacom Drivers!(even though its mechanical ) :'(
EDIT: about the stylus upgrade probability you can see in hecartha's video at "0:00" just pause and look at ALL the different styluses!
Last edited by Shahan; April 2nd, 2012 at 03:38 PM.
I don't see how "upgrading" the stylus would work considering the Intuos5 is one of the devices I used.
By upgrading, I didn't mean "change it by another one on wacom store" but redesign it.
All the wacom stylet are designed with the same mechanical system so the issue you are after is present on every one out there.
You can't do anything actually
+1 for shoelaces w/ smoothing active.
Intuos 4, Windows 7 64-bit with PS CS 5. Shows up in Wacom's control panel, too.
Few years ago, the default tablet mode when installing Wacom driver was the standard mode but today, the default mode is the recognition data which sends much more data per second.
That's the reason why deactivating path smoothing in Photoshop seems to do nothing. However, the standard mode gives an idea of how many time the tablet is sending stylus coordinates.
Standard mode or recognition data does not seem to concern pressure so I suppose our tablets send two or three pressure coordinates which correspond to the shoelace effect when doing a very fast brush stroke.
The red lines represent the pressure data sent by the tablet. I deduced them so they are not accurate.
At the left, the shoelace effect using Photoshop CS5 on Windows.
At the right, I fixed manually this result using SAI. I recreated the end of the brush stroke using the vector tool. I just replaced the last pressure data by a null pressure so I obtained the kind of result I am seeing on Mac OS X.
So now a theory...
I think the issue comes from Photoshop only. We know Photoshop does not smooth pressure at all, it is just doing pressure interpolation.
So, I suppose Photoshop is using the wrong pressure data for the last stylus coordinate before the stylus is released. Photoshop should use a null pressure but it seems to use exactly the same pressure that is used by the "pressure point" just before the one at the end of the brush stroke.
Anyone who ever used Bézier curve knows the smoother curve is the one with less control point. So I think current stylus is ok but Adobe should fix such bug and allow smoothing pressure if needed.
@hecartha , so the tool ID thing let each stylus be like a different color and tool? thats so awesome! like one step closer to real life and SO convenient i bet.
So wacom replied on the thread with this :
"The test area should just allow to test the sensitivity effects. It does not smooth and antialias strokes in the same way as Photoshop or Painter. Surely it is possible to improve that."
So I'm a bit confused...trying to wrap my head around this and put it simpler terms for anyone else reading this.. The issue isn't with wacom?! And so the pressure readings we see in Wacom Tablet Properties is something to go by because it is too raw?
So those jagged lines are basically where it picks up on the points and receives data and is too slow? and now that the default is recognition data the amount of points is increased and the curves of the lines are smoother but this causes shoelaces?
and so what I'm getting now is that... the shoelace is just natural and "eternal" and any time we see otherwise its a program like SAI or Photshop distressing (smoothing off) and its not really improving the tablet but making it seem like it is. Like just looking at SAI when using a 450pixel Pen you can see its not legitimate natural (my pen creating) those tapers. Its the software doing that. like they intake the shoelace and spit out a corrected thing with their software?
When i first read "I think the issue comes from Photoshop only." I was thinking about what i've been saying .. how i always say that it cant be because it shows up in the Wacom Tablet Properties... but now that i know the WTP isn't a good thing to go on... i see what you mean...
It is wayward... like.. smoothing, by definition should NOT do that it DOES make the curves of the strokes good but the ends rubbish.
turn smoothing off and you have jagged curves BUT smooth ends(only one smooth end).
so with that gif you're kind of showing what SAI does behind the scenes... and how the shoelaces are .. natural to the tablet..
Question, were they NOT there when using the old standard mode? because standard is sort of equivbalent to today's "photshop cs5 with no smoothing" ? so "data recognition" is like a smoothing option built in to the driver?
is there a way to make it standard mode again? just to test..
also with the last GIF ... thats SO counter intuitive... to think LESS pressure points make a smoother curve... im so surprised by that.. so is the intuos4 having 2047 pressure levels making it worse? or is that not related..?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, you've been incredibly helpful, and thank you for letting me use the images. If wacom hasn't heard of this problem yet (i'm sure they have) they probably know, but money or something is probably getting in the way.
Hopefully since you've articulated the problem SO WELL and I hope some Wacom Tech guy catches wind of this. ...But its not wacom related? ... hmmmmm theres got to be something they could do, maybe a future product?
So why is the WTP control panel area not a good test again? its just not meant for that? .. EDIT: ohhhh like what they replied with, it doesnt smooth or anti alias in the WTP ... so the wacom's natural strokes are just like that? shoe laces are normal? like funshark said it is a mechanical error?
Thanks again hecartha thank you SO much. Are you like a tech guy? like those... are really well made GIFs, looks professional. I looked through your other posts and wow... your knowledge of color management is over whelming! haha I'll deal with that problem when I come to it. But in one of your posts i saw that AWESOME perspective drawing program, thanks for that!
I'm also thinking about buying a new Computer, right now i'm using a Dell Inspiron Laptop, overall which do you think is best? Mac or PC ?
In your video above, when using MAC is that MAC with smoothing? Meaning the only thing it has on Windows is that enabling smoothing WONT cause shoelaces?
So PS CS5 on MAC OS X with smoothing on has nice ends AND smooth curves? is that the advantage there? Even on the video with the MAC you can still see beginning shoelaces
EDIT2: also when I said "curve" all those times i meant the curve of the actual stroke, like how "wacom standard data mode" in the image above had jagged curves, im not referring to pressure curves. ..I guess "path" is the right terminology there, the path the stroke leaves.
So the dillema is that sending much more data recognition points makes smoother paths but messes up the stroke ends?
Last edited by Shahan; April 3rd, 2012 at 03:34 PM.
I believe what hecartha is saying was something stated earlier about how there is "post processing"
The tablet showing raw data basically similar to how Photoshop handles a stroke. Notice the tapered end at the beginning of a stroke is harder to achieve in PS and in the wacom control panel? Try doing a tapered end in Sai (change the stabilizer) or Painter.
Hecartha is saying it's not really a hardware issue (nor is it the resolution) but a software one and I actually have to agree because if I'm able to get a better line in Painter where the start to finish have better gradations than PS and most other programs ...SO OBVIOUSLY someone figured it out on how to make lines look/respond better
hecartha, your approach is interesting about the bug in Photoshop.
But I have mine too, the problem is, it's difficult to analyse it and prove it
when I said before "upgrading the stylus", I didn't mean neither that I want more pressure levels. Actually, I think 2048 levels is really something useless... I can't do a better stroke with 2048 levels... I can do a better stroke with better stroke recognition, a possibility to smooth efficiently the stroke, and so on...
What I wanted to say is that the mechanics inside the stylus is really simple. And as you can see on my sketch, the tip is unstable... try to touch it.
How can you send and record a value efficiently when a thing is unstable; mh?
There will be a stroke recorded from a certain distance from the tablet. Basically the tablet doesn't actually have to touch the surface. Try it.
Well it may be a driver issue.
I did this test on an AMD phenom II quad (3.0 ghz)
The Wacom driver used is 6.1.5-3
I used Photoshop CS 4 and 5
I could get a nice tapered line. This may also have the .dat tablet mods in, but the line quality is definitely different and better.
I don't believe I can use older drivers with the intuos5 because I did try and it told me I had to install new ones/ or no driver was working for it on the system of course.
So something in the newer drivers is botching it. I can't get that kind of tapering in the newer drivers, and looking at Hecartha's vid it's the same with Mac and PC (Mac seemed to have a little more luck with it). So something is messing up the beginning of the stroke, and it doesn't affect Painter because they have good brush tracking/post processing.
So I think it's a driver issue/software issue. But if it makes any difference the other computers were all Intel, and I believe so is Hecartha's mac iirc.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; April 4th, 2012 at 10:00 AM.
Try this... so you know the cursor responds when the stylus enters a certain area near the tablet? Try and find the exact area, the minimum height your stylus needs to be to move your cursor, So hover an inch above the active area and wait til you juuuuusstttt enter the active area. you know what I mean?
When its like that try applying pressure manually to the nib with your finger to change the pressure, ... this is just for the nib jiggle theory... I get varied results doing this... since you can create Extreemmee pressure stroke chages by pressing the nib with your finger and not letting the nib touch the tablet.
This just takes the whole nib to surface thing out of the equation... in Alchemy with pressure shapes and displace you can kind of get a seismograph reading....but i dont think it proves anything.... lol
I got this from Wacom today when i asked if shoelaces are just native to tablet technology, as far as the WTP test area, and maybe other programs:
"I think there is a limitation in the hardware and software how fast pressure data can be handled. The tablet can deliver only a certain number of data pakets per second, the driver applies some filtering and then it comes to the application. - So you may not get enough data on very fast movements. When you do a curve very fast, it can also appear as a series of lines. This can be improved when the tablet sends more data (you can set it to 'recognition mode' for that), but there is still a limit. Beyond that it is smoothing in the software."
I had no idea about recognition mode... apparently if you double click the intuos4 icon in the WTP you can set it... i'll try but i think its already like that.. (dont have tablet with me)
what wacom said is very true... if i do slow strokes i can get nice everything! so yeah... if your driver is good Arshes then maybe wacom forum guy is just talking about newer drivers? its confusing... and yes from what i gather and hope... is that it can be fixed....... sommmme howwwww... however, theres a LOT of compelling evidence to suggest otherwise and none of our computers are the same...
What is also possible and what i get from hecartha's post is that:
Shoelaced strokes ARE native and the tech just isn't perfect yet, and any time we see tapered strokes it is NOT from actual pressure readings but a software that reads the strokes simply as visual errors and corrects it instantly.
Like SAI doesnt actually work with pressure... it just corrects them via software that's built for that... SAI's stroke ends are nice but not natural, the tablet technology, even Wacom's apparently can't simulate real life stroke swipes, which is fine... i thought it could...
So theres a raw pressure read out and then theres what SAI and Corel Painter do with smoothing and brush calibration... I wish I knew more about how that software works... i'd be surprised if it was a 3rd party software going into my wacom's pressure and actually serving as some temp driver when the programs running... i doubt that... it has to be just ... like 'just for show' software that does smoothing and anti aliasing... Corel's brush does... however work with pressure and speed...... hmm...
but for SAI i knwo for sure looking at it that its just really good at giving awesome 'pretend' end strokes, which is fine with me it looks great!
i may be wrong, does anyone disagree that the smoothing is just for show and not actually related to the pressure read out of wacom drivers?
I say this because hecartha was able to do it with a vector editing program, i think what SAI does is similar but much better and more efficient and it has an engine built to do that.
however all this goes out the window if '6.1.5-3' works, lol. pld:
Well another person with an AMD processor using the latest driver also gets tapered strokes similar to mine on my friend's AMD desktop.
The same person has an Intel machine at home and an older driver and will perform a test when she is off work.
So I am starting to think it may be a software/processor issue. I had installed the same driver on my desktop which is Intel and I get the nasty rounded strokes with shoelace problems.
I could easily put in the intuos4 on the AMD machine and verify it's not a hardware issue (with the wacom). I really doubt it because on the machine I have the intuos5 I also tried with an intuos3 with the latest driver and got the same result. Which already the latest driver has been tested on another machine using an AMD processor.
Keep in mind that the screenshot I posted with the tablet reading is with the LATEST drivers using an intuos5. It will not let me run an intuos5 with older drivers.
It would be pretty wild if the issue is indeed with intel chips using photoshop. Like I said, Painter handles strokes the same way I've been using for years, sans that missing stroke episode in Painter 11 before the patch.
Last edited by Arshes Nei; April 4th, 2012 at 02:58 PM.
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