Need some help drawing

[Sir Cam]

I need some advice for my drawing. I've never asked for help here before so this is a sign that I'm pretty desperate. This problem has seriously damaged my love for drawing and it's been destroying what little confidence I had in my skills. I think it would be ludicrous to give up now after all of the time, effort, and study that I've put into improving but the thought has been crossing my mind far too often lately because of this issue.

To put this very plainly and simply, I can't draw with pencils. It sounds absurd right? I think this is because I inevitably dig into the grain of the paper which reduces my fluidity and wrecks every drawing that I start. When I'm using a medium that can't dig in such as a ink marker or a paintbrush, I find drawing effortless and loose. When using those, I can just focus on making my art good whereas if I use a sharp medium such as graphite or wax-based colored pencils, I feel like I'm being crippled every step of the way. I also think the thinness of the line plays a big part because even the slightest shake in my hand will trigger a glaringly broken or wobbly line whereas something like a marker with it's bolder lines make such errors almost inconsequential.

This is where the terrible frustration comes from. I can do a decent drawing with marker effortlessly in under a minute and then try to do the same drawing again with graphite right next to it and be unable. Quality isn't necessarily the issue, it is the ease with which I draw. For me, marker is no trouble at all but graphite is impossible. Why? Seriously, why? Why is everyone else able to do it but I can't? Again, it's not that my art is great when using a marker, it's that I can do it easily. With a pencil, I tend to start a drawing, ruin it immediately, and have to start over. With marker however, I can fix just about any mistake I make while I draw thus enabling me to continue through the process and attain a relatively complete end product.

The obvious disadvantage to using something like marker is that it will leave bold permanent lines so there's no way to do any sort of fine detail using it. It's fine if you plan to use a light table to trace over or whatever but I wont be satisfied doing that. I view that as a crutch. It shouldn't be necessary anyways because I see artists take their drawings all the way to a finished state without need of any gimmicks like that all the time. That is what I want to do.

Even if this all sounds ridiculous, the bottom line is that I have no trouble whatsoever drawing with marker but I find it nearly impossible with a pencil. Help. Here are some examples of both and maybe you will see how the marker drawings are much more fluid than the pencil drawings. Something that you can't see is how much easier it was with the marker than with the pencil but take my word for it, the difference for me is night and day.

[Conniekat8]

How much experience do you have drawing with a pencil? Same amount as with a marker?
Each drawing or painting 'utensil' can feel different, may you feel different, and bring slightly different style and mood out of you. Also, level of comfort with each can make a difference.

Paintbrushes and Conte crayon sticks are the bane of my existence right now.... But that too shall pass. Markers and pencils... no problem.

Also, I can't handle being anywhere near newsprint.

[Medelo]

Have you tried drawing on really smooth paper, like perhaps bristol plate or rag marker paper? It can make quite a big difference. Of course, if you're then going to do renderings on those, it might be a different story as those surfaces don't have much tooth....

Also you might well have to change the way you hold pencils as opposed to markers. I'm sure you're not using the writing grip, but maybe hold the pencils more towards the back end to ease the pressure on the tip. Otherwise, it may just be mileage and practice to get used to the new medium. D:

[arenhaus]

I think the reason why you like your marker sketches but don't like the pencil ones is that you are in that maddening period of your learning where you almost grasp the masses and the action lines... but almost grasp them.

When you cannot trace the precise line on the first try, the marker's loose and wide line hides a lot of that imprecision, and the eye, not having an exact contour to work with, fills the rest in.

The deviation of the drawn line from the expected one is far less noticeable if the line is wide. In a way, the viewer's brain unconsciously "corrects" the loose sketch, working by suggestion and its experience of the human figure aspect.

But take a pencil with its thin and unforgiving line, and boom. The viewer's brain has an exact contour to follow, and the deviation from the expected line becomes much more noticeable.

Actually, this is a great way to do loose sketches and doodles: a wide tool allows you to get away with much more than the pencil. I often like doing preliminary and conceptual sketches in something wide, for that very reason, but I then do a second, tight drawing with a sharp pencil to work out the correct form.

So sketch all you like with the marker. Sketching with a paintbrush works just as well, if your paper/canvas is big enough (and even if it is not; I've made monochromatic acrylic sketches no bigger than 12 inches tall.) If you want to begin with a loose doodle and then refine the pencil drawing on the same page, start with a very light wide marker and continue with a darker sharp one, or start with a blunt graphite stick and continue with pencil. This is a very useful technique for conceptualizing, so don't abandon it.

As for the lack of life and precision in your tighter drawings... that is going to take more effort. Basically, you have to keep the eye on those loose and dynamic qualities in the figure, but at the same time track the more exact things like perspective and masses and muscle tension and balance. Practice perspective drawing, build a few formal perspective to learn the rules, study anatomy, track basic forms and building blocks in every pose you see.

A good habit that helps there is refining the lines as you go. It does not matter if your first line is imprecise; it serves to show where the precise one should be. Just lay another darker line next to it.

[Elwell]

It's all in your head. Draw more.

[[email protected]]

I think it is the 'Art and Fear' book that states that 'perfect is the enemy of good' When you're more or less proficient in one medium, it can be downright frustrating to tackle a new one, because you will suffer quite a performance hit. It can be maddening, stiffening and confusing. In your case, your perfect marker can be an enemy which may keep you from being good with a pencil...

[Black Spot]

It's more because you know you can erase with a pencil or charcoal, but can't with marker and thus concentrate harder with marker so you don't make a mistake. It's why when I started drawing again I used ballpoint - to concentrate the mind. I drew more and am over that.

[JeffX99]

Yep...arenhaus said it well...Elwell also. Looks to me like you're graphite/conte work is reaching for a higher level of realism is all, so inaccurate anatomy and sacrifice of gesture for rendering is more noticeable. You'll get through it I'm sure...just part of the climb.

Edit: Good post btw...good examples and clear about the issues you're working with.

[Sir Cam]

Thank you all for the responses and support. I am carefully considering what each of you has to say and I will respond to you individually perhaps later today or tomorrow. Perhaps I should specify that what I am truly struggling with is using the same procedure with pencil as I do with marker. This may be kind of important now that I think about it. I can do a direct drawing where I just draw the figure piece by piece with a pencil of course but that causes me to lose the total and is not what I do with the marker. My general procedure is to start with a gesture, build the forms, build the anatomy, and then to shade the anatomy. I have trouble with this method using a pencil

It's all in your head. Draw more.

No disrespect sir but it is not all in my head, trust me. I do agree that it's possible that the solution might be as simple as more practice though. The amount of struggle I've experienced with this seems abnormal to me and I've tried everything I could think of to correct it but nothing has worked hence why I've finally resorted to begging you guys for help, as a last resort. I've tried just adjusting my pressure and drawing more lightly and the drawings were still bad. I've tried holding the pencil with the tip out so that I draw with the side of the pencil but still this same struggle (and I practiced this for years now). I've tried drawing on different sorts of paper with varying rag contents and it made no difference. I've tried drawing with a thicker, softer pencil that leaves a broader line akin to that of marker such as 9b graphite and still it was more difficult. I've struggled with this for years now actually. It's not as if I had a hard time for a few days and just said "screw it." I'd say that I appreciate the comment but it didn't seem that helpful really. I do welcome something a little more constructive though.

[Conniekat8]

No disrespect sir but it is not all in my head, trust me. I do agree that it's possible that the solution might be as simple as more practice though. The amount of struggle I've experienced with this seems abnormal to me and I've tried everything I could think of to correct it but nothing has worked hence why I've finally resorted to begging you guys for help, as a last resort. I've tried just adjusting my pressure and drawing more lightly and the drawings were still bad. I've tried holding the pencil with the tip out so that I draw with the side of the pencil but still this same struggle (and I practiced this for years now). I've tried drawing on different sorts of paper with varying rag contents and it made no difference. I've tried drawing with a thicker, softer pencil that leaves a broader line akin to that of marker such as 9b graphite and still it was more difficult. I've struggled with this for years now actually. It's not as if I had a hard time for a few days and just said "screw it." I'd say that I appreciate the comment but it didn't seem that helpful really. I do welcome something a little more constructive though.

By 'all in your head', I would venture a guess Elvell didn't mean you are imagining things but that you are amid a mental game between how you perceive a pencil should behave, or how you should be working with it, vs. finding a way to turn it to your advantage. A mental game, so to speak, one that you overcome by practicing.

It is possible that for a little while you may need to adjust your expectations out of what you produce with a pencil, before you notice new things you can do with it.

Seems like you and a pencil are at a bit of an impasse... it's not doing what you want it to do, and considering that the pencil has no mind of it's own, the ball is in your court

Personally, I noticed some time ago, I think I may have even started a thread about it, every medium, every drawing utensil puts me in a different mood. Often to a point that it looks like a totally different person drew something. I think one of the posters pointed that I'm apparently very sensitive to the medium behavior, which is a good thing.... but it does mean you have to come to personal terms with each, and find a balance between proficiency in the medium, and the mood of your strokes.

[Elwell]

No disrespect sir but it is not all in my head, trust me. I do agree that it's possible that the solution might be as simple as more practice though. The amount of struggle I've experienced with this seems abnormal to me and I've tried everything I could think of to correct it but nothing has worked hence why I've finally resorted to begging you guys for help, as a last resort. I've tried just adjusting my pressure and drawing more lightly and the drawings were still bad. I've tried holding the pencil with the tip out so that I draw with the side of the pencil but still this same struggle (and I practiced this for years now). I've tried drawing on different sorts of paper with varying rag contents and it made no difference. I've tried drawing with a thicker, softer pencil that leaves a broader line akin to that of marker such as 9b graphite and still it was more difficult. I've struggled with this for years now actually..

This is exactly what I was talking about. You've made it into A THING. Your pencil drawing aren't anywhere as bad (nor are your pen drawing as good) as you make them out to be. You've made this the focus for all of your frustrations about drawing, with the corollary that if you can fix this, everything else will fall into place, and fella that just ain't so. Drawing is drawing. Do more.

[Charlie D]

Hello Sir Cam

Your marker stuff are loose gesture sketches and by their nature not fundamentally good drawings. Good drawings are what you/ me and others are aiming towards with the pencil. You are doing ok, but you have a few more rungs of the ladder to climb.

Observe, measure (sight method in JeffX99 sig) then draw to obtain precision, Build confidence, then maybe try dropping the measure from the excercise.


One thing learning to draw teaches us, is that our observation skills are totally rubbish and the only way to improve those is practice, practice, practice

[arenhaus]

My general procedure is to start with a gesture, build the forms, build the anatomy, and then to shade the anatomy. I have trouble with this method using a pencil.

That only shows that you have some trouble with the method, period. The pencil just demonstrates it clearer than the marker.

Two things you ought to focus on, in my opinion:

1. Keep being aware of the overall form, even while you are adding detail. If you are refining a line, think of the way it is improving the overall form. If you are shading something, think of the way it describes the overall form. If you are adding a detail form, think of how it helps build and bring out the overall form. Never lose sight of the whole as you work.

2. Spend more time planning, less time shading. If a loose sketch looks good, it does not mean you should shade it at once; it means you should clean it up while striving for two goals: one, make the form more exact and solid, and two, keep the liveliness and ease imparted by the loose sketch at the same time. Always go from general to specific, in everything from form to shading.

[Sir Cam]

This is exactly what I was talking about. You've made it into A THING. Your pencil drawing aren't anywhere as bad (nor are your pen drawing as good) as you make them out to be. You've made this the focus for all of your frustrations about drawing, with the corollary that if you can fix this, everything else will fall into place, and fella that just ain't so. Drawing is drawing. Do more.

That is why I was so frustrated that I find it so much more difficult to draw with a pencil than marker or paintbrush. It shouldn't make a difference because the knowledge and skill is in me, not the tool. I just couldn't understand it.

Perhaps it is just that different mediums behave differently and I just need to practice more to become more proficient with the medium. If it is as simple as that, then I feel relieved. I was beginning to seriously doubt myself. I don't mind just practicing like that to improve. It was the fact that I couldn't understand why there was such a discrepancy that made me so frustrated.

Thanks everyone. I think I'm starting to feel a little better. I'm glad I asked for help.

[vineris]

Perhaps it is just that different mediums behave differently and I just need to practice more to become more proficient with the medium. If it is as simple as that, then I feel relieved. I was beginning to seriously doubt myself. I don't mind just practicing like that to improve. It was the fact that I couldn't understand why there was such a discrepancy that made me so frustrated.

Each medium definitely has its quirks. You might want to work a bit with charcoal, conte, chalk pastels, pen & ink or some other related media just to really see all the differences. (Plus each medium teaches you a slightly different combination of skills so you may learn to improve a skill in a roundabout way by learning a medium you're unfamiliar with.)

[Conniekat8]

That is why I was so frustrated that I find it so much more difficult to draw with a pencil than marker or paintbrush. It shouldn't make a difference because the knowledge and skill is in me, not the tool. I just couldn't understand it.

Perhaps it is just that different mediums behave differently and I just need to practice more to become more proficient with the medium. If it is as simple as that, then I feel relieved. I was beginning to seriously doubt myself. I don't mind just practicing like that to improve. It was the fact that I couldn't understand why there was such a discrepancy that made me so frustrated.

Thanks everyone. I think I'm starting to feel a little better. I'm glad I asked for help.

Wanna hear something really strange... I just finished what may be considered first semester of fundamentals - to get an idea of my level.

When I do gestures.... Even though they feel different, and bring a slightly different style out of me, I do things pretty close to the same skill level with different media I tried so far... graphite, pencil, conte pencil, charcoal, pens (I forget what else we tried with).

But the moment I grab a small conte stick (where you break it into approximately 1/2" piece and use wide strokes for main gestures and use the edges for accents... I go left-footed, and things fall apart.

Another thing to know is that I am somewhat ambidextrous. My right hand is dominant for most things, but sometimes my left takes over, to explain it in simple terms). So, last figure drawing class I got really frustrated with it, and was at the point of giving up, so just for grins I switched hands thinking, what the heck, I can't do any worse. With my left hand, it all of a sudden clicked in.

As the teacher was walking around he even made a brief comment, very nice, you're getting nice fluid motion and a good range of pressure sensitivity... something to that effect. And the gestures did look much better. Much more relaxed, fluid, and closer to what they're supposed to look like. Switching back to right hand they dell apart again. I was able to duplicate the same later on when doing homework sketching, so it wasn't just a one time fluke.

I'm not sure what is causing it... if my brain and motor skills were naturally wired that way, or if switching to the left hand broke through the preconceived notion of how the media *should* behave, vs. feeling how it behaves and responding to it.

Something vaguely similar was happening in beginning painting, for some things I had switched to the left hand for a while. Seemed like my right hand (or my brain) kept expecting the brush to behave like a pencil. After 4-5 paintings towards the end of the semester most of that went away.

But, over analysis aside, what elwell says was certainly true in my case, practice made it go away.

[AvP]

I was having the same problems that you mention. Then I stumbled upon something John Howe was saying, how we often hold our pencils the same way as we do a pen for writing. And how this can hinder our right brain functions for drawing. He suggested that if it is held like a conductor’s wand further back, this can help a great deal. This still needs to be backed up by practice and more practice, it’s not a magic fix.

If you look on YouTube for: Illustrator John Howe speaks about the difference between drawing and writing He talks about this.