First signs of something outside the universe?

[Matt001]

I'm against immortality. We all owe the universe a death.

Agreed. And I think immortality would be boring. Even now it's hard to come up with something new for dinner.

[skullsquid]

Mad Cross:

I don't really care to argue, but the god thing was mentioned to bait an argument that was off tangent. That's all, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just wish the topic didn't drift into a back and forth discussion about religion like usual.

Just my personal opinion of course. You're free to do whatever you want.

[Adam Synapse]

Agreed. And I think immortality would be boring. Even now it's hard to come up with something new for dinner.

But can what we're talking bout really be called immortality or longevity though I do agree of course.

[VulgarDragon]

Check this link out. It's a huge picture taken by Hubble space telescope of a very tiny area of the universe, showing galaxies. It's really mind boggling.

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~martin/teaching/PHY2048/Images/galaxiesB.jpg

Mad Cross:

I don't really care to argue, but the god thing was mentioned to bait an argument that was off tangent. That's all, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, just wish the topic didn't drift into a back and forth discussion about religion like usual.

Just my personal opinion of course. You're free to do whatever you want.

Don't worry about it. I wasn't trying to throw the thread off track...I was only saying what this topic made me think of...that's all. Well, back to science.

[ShroudStar]

Ah, cybernetics, now that's something I can't wait for. My goals, once such technology available to the public:

- Robot legs
- Wireless, neural internet access (with 50 million firewalls/antivirus programs. The last thing I want is someone hacking into my own brain.)
- A back up copy of my brain somewhere.

It's interesting that you should mention that, BadGeometry. I recently finished watching this dystopic dark anime called Texhnolyze and their technology goes that far. They have cybernetic limbs that interact so well with the neural pathways that you don't need anything else once you've been hooked up and ready to go. The other benefit is that you get a visible interface and readouts on the surroundings around you.

In the latter half of this anime, you find out that humanity - by trying to evolve through and by technology of this degree - has effectively left their bodies to die while their subconscious (or minds) are stored in this digital bank. They learn to live through the mind, but it's rather depressing seeing that.

It's the reason why, when flipping through one of the TIME or Newsweek issues that I shuddered when I saw this artificial arm that they were developing that reminded me of the limbs in that anime. Considering humanity is going in a quick slide towards attaining immortality, I certainly don't want it to be a harbinger of something worse.

[BadGeometry]

It's interesting that you should mention that, BadGeometry. I recently finished watching this dystopic dark anime called Texhnolyze and their technology goes that far. They have cybernetic limbs that interact so well with the neural pathways that you don't need anything else once you've been hooked up and ready to go. The other benefit is that you get a visible interface and readouts on the surroundings around you.

In the latter half of this anime, you find out that humanity - by trying to evolve through and by technology of this degree - has effectively left their bodies to die while their subconscious (or minds) are stored in this digital bank. They learn to live through the mind, but it's rather depressing seeing that.

I guess it's all in how you look at it really. Though I do agree, that shedding all of one's organic, uh, organs is going a bit too far. There's one thing I'll never replace with machinery, and that's my left arm. Can't draw without it, and I don't want to lose that warmth the comes with the organic movement and flow of a natural arm.

EDIT: BTW, what's the title of that Anime? I'm a bit curious to watch it.

It's the reason why, when flipping through one of the TIME or Newsweek issues that I shuddered when I saw this artificial arm that they were developing that reminded me of the limbs in that anime. Considering humanity is going in a quick slide towards attaining immortality, I certainly don't want it to be a harbinger of something worse.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure it'll be a while before those prosthetics surpass the strength and efficiency of the human body, and I think it'd be even longer before such transplants are cheap enough that everyone can get them.

Plus, I think I'd be more worried about how many stockpiled nukes the world powers have.

Madcross
I can't imagine how big the universe is. I remember reading an article (albeit from Cracked.com) the cited a theory about the size of the universe that went as follows:
Let assume the known universe is the size of a quarter. The rest of the unknown universe, by comparison, is the size of Earth.

Yeah, let the sink in for a second. By that scale, we're smaller than electrons.

Regarding the image you posted, I think it's also really fascinating how old that light actually is, and how many of those stars are actually dead at present.

[ShroudStar]

I guess it's all in how you look at it really. Though I do agree, that shedding all of one's organic, uh, organs is going a bit too far. There's one thing I'll never replace with machinery, and that's my left arm. Can't draw without it, and I don't want to lose that warmth the comes with the organic movement and flow of a natural arm.

EDIT: BTW, what's the title of that Anime? I'm a bit curious to watch it.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm sure it'll be a while before those prosthetics surpass the strength and efficiency of the human body, and I think it'd be even longer before such transplants are cheap enough that everyone can get them.

Plus, I think I'd be more worried about how many stockpiled nukes the world powers have.

I agree. I thought it was interesting, though, that they presented that as a possibility in the distant future. The whole premise of the series is excellent; although, the beginning is slow and doesn't seem to make much sense. If you're interested, give it time. It's 22 episodes and by the time you get into 5 or 6, things really start to heat up in terms of plot and concepts.

It's called Texhnolyze. I watched it off of Veoh first but I also have the boxset because it's that damn good.

I think technology is getting better at a faster rate these days, so I won't be surprised if in less than 50 years down the line, something similar will be present. The neuroscience and all of the mentioning of nanotechnology and robotic surgical bugs (!) does give an inkling of that. I do agree about the cost, though.

Yeah, we'll probably come closer to blowing ourselves up than ever getting to that kind of dystopic future. Einstein did say that a hypothetical WWIV will be fought with sticks and stones, which says a lot.

[serhc]

transhumanism - basically, shedding our organic selves and replacing that with machinery and technology - is super fascinating to me. i realize there's a big divide about how ethical that is, but it's quite a flight of the imagination, and it raises all sorts of interesting questions about what we fundamentally are.

imagine we develop technology to the point where our machinery can perfectly imitate every physical sensation. or, where piece by piece our brains are replaced by perfect mechanical imitations, until finally, our brains are fully mechanical, as are our bodies. at what point do we stop being human? at what point does it become a sort form of 'cheating death'? is it ethically permissible to allow that? is that sort of 'immortality' any different from cloning bodies and downloading memories into them? and how does that compare to medicine? what if a form of highly developed medicine allows us to completely stop the aging process, all that oxidation and whatnot?

it's like a modern pandora's box, and it totally turns my brain on.

[VulgarDragon]

I

Madcross
I can't imagine how big the universe is. I remember reading an article (albeit from Cracked.com) the cited a theory about the size of the universe that went as follows:
Let assume the known universe is the size of a quarter. The rest of the unknown universe, by comparison, is the size of Earth.

Yeah, let the sink in for a second. By that scale, we're smaller than electrons.

Regarding the image you posted, I think it's also really fascinating how old that light actually is, and how many of those stars are actually dead at present.

It's all fantasticing. While I only claim a passing knowledge of theoretical physics, light speed and time is not constant throughout the universe. I once heard a physics professor speak at a lecture about how light and time can be affected by gravity...it is known that gravity will slow time down. A clock in orbit around earth would tick away slightly faster than the one on earth because of gravity. The difference is really, really tiny, but if you think of all the galaxies, black holes, and dark matter clustered at the center of universe...it all adds up. So time at the edge of the universe (if there is one?) would be exponentially much faster than further in the center. So the galaxies that are tens of billions of light years away are probably much older than we think. It's all only a theory, but very interesting to think about.

[Prometheus|ANJ]

It might be environmentally sound to become disembodied minds. A brain in a VR environment has lower energy and nutrition requirements. Bodies could be remote controlled when needed. (Incidentally, this is the premise of Cortex Command... but then of course the brains have to build battle robots and blow hit up, because it is a video game after all.)

I think it's inevitable that we'll turn into something else, because we're already well on our way. A car, cellphone or computer mouse can be a seemingly telepathically controlled appendage of our bodies. It's really quite remarkable how good the human brain is at accepting augmentation.

---

The conclusion of that article made me uneasy.

[BadGeometry]

Mad Cross
That example about the clock in orbit versus the one in space. Do you think gravity might have an effect on it's mechanical components? That could explain why it ticks slower in space. Either way it's certainly an interesting idea. I think Einstein's theory of Relativity go into that, though with the inverse of what you described. Time moves more slowly in higher gravitational fields.

It might be environmentally sound to become disembodied minds. A brain in a VR environment has lower energy and nutrition requirements.

No thank, I don't want to live in The Matrix.

[VulgarDragon]

I think the experiments were carried out using atomic clocks. They have observed time differences in atomic clocks situated at different altitudes. Here are some interesting related articles on gravitational effects on time.

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...htm?list125479

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound-Rebka_experiment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele-Keating_experiment

It might be environmentally sound to become disembodied minds.

Like a Dalek, eh?

[rswanson]

If the continuum in which our universe is contained is infinite, then all possibilities must exist- by the very definition of the concept 'infinite'. There must exist an world just like the one in which we now inhabit, coexisting with ours that is the same in every detail, down to the smallest particle, with the singular exception that one of those minute particles does not exist.

Following this logic, if all possibilities must exist, then so too must the possibility that our existence is singular and no others exist. Infinity is. by rule of our understanding, contradictory.

[Elwell]

If the continuum in which our universe is contained is infinite, then all possibilities must exist- by the very definition of the concept 'infinite'. There must exist an world just like the one in which we now inhabit, coexisting with ours that is the same in every detail, down to the smallest particle, with the singular exception that one of those minute particles does not exist.

Following this logic, if all possibilities must exist, then so too must the possibility that our existence is singular and no others exist. Infinity is. by rule of our understanding, contradictory.

Well aren't you clever.

[rswanson]

Well aren't you clever.

Well, aren't you an ass. I'm sure someone came to the same conclusion as the statement I made a long time ago. I thought it would be an interesting comment to add to the thread. If you don't think so, go ahead and feel free to work on post #9415.

[Craig D]

If the continuum in which our universe is contained is infinite, then all possibilities must exist- by the very definition of the concept 'infinite'. There must exist an world just like the one in which we now inhabit, coexisting with ours that is the same in every detail, down to the smallest particle, with the singular exception that one of those minute particles does not exist.

Following this logic, if all possibilities must exist, then so too must the possibility that our existence is singular and no others exist. Infinity is. by rule of our understanding, contradictory.

I was not aware, and could find no definition, that infinite equals all possibilities.
So your logic is flawed.

[BadGeometry]

rswanson: Kinda reminds me of the expression "Could God create a stone He could not lift"

Also: No need to be so combative. Lighten up, old boy.

[Portus]

I was not aware, and could find no definition, that infinite equals all possibilities.
So your logic is flawed.

Just listen to the podcast that was posted earlier.

[VulgarDragon]

If the continuum in which our universe is contained is infinite, then all possibilities must exist- by the very definition of the concept 'infinite'. There must exist an world just like the one in which we now inhabit, coexisting with ours that is the same in every detail, down to the smallest particle, with the singular exception that one of those minute particles does not exist.

Following this logic, if all possibilities must exist, then so too must the possibility that our existence is singular and no others exist. Infinity is. by rule of our understanding, contradictory.

My head hurts.

[Craig D]

Portus
Can you show me the podcast. I can't see one.
And will I look stupid now after I listen to it

[s.ketch]

http://www.physorg.com/news98468776.html

[serhc]

just think, there's some possible universe where your counterpart is married to a supermodel. or supermodels. or every supermodel ever

too bad none of us lucked out like that, eh?

[Orunitier]

Whatever this is, as long as it doesn't end up being some type of Lovecraftian horror, I'm okay with it.

[chriskot]

My friend was telling me that there is a theory or something that every possible one of these universes/probabilities exists, and that a person's "soul" follows the path in which they continue living. Because there would always be at least one possible universe in which you somehow survived a fraction of a second longer, this implies that while a person will watch the people around them come and go, he or she will live forever.

It's a cool concept, even if it would be pretty depressing.

[Opilione]

The article isn't very scientific so it's hard to comment on the hypothesis being presented. It could just be a new quantum mathematics equation some guy was playing around with, since I don't see how it's possible to actually have a "study" of something that is described in the same article as "unknown" and "unseen" (un-observed, I am assuming). It just doesn't make sense.

[Hyskoa]

[onionface]

adam: they don't do that because sonny looks like a sperm.

the universe is bigger? - cool, more space for our junk.

[Junck]

If you get free time, I highly recommend looking at some articles/books on dark matter, dark energy, cosmic microwave background radiation, the cone theory, and various quantum models of universal mechanics and multiple universes. While I understand not everything can be completely understood by reading into stuff with a lot of scientifically technical data, it's very easy to understand what the concept is in a whole, and even moreso to try and apply it to what exists out there. Hawking's work is especially interesting. Very cool stuff, I only wish I could live long enough to see the one big mystery finally unraveled.

I'm against immortality. We all owe the universe a death.

One of the many theories is Heat Death. Very interesting, too.

[TheJester]

Oh the dream of the Multiverse!!!! Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the real possibility of it being a reality. I just inevitably dream of the Marvel Multiverse when I think about such things!!!!

Somewhere, there might be a universe in which I am Wolverine... That's something to be happy about!!!!

Oh, and about the cryogenics talk some posts above... You realise that even if that worked, it'd be just a really cool pause button right? It won't stop your cells from dying out, just pause the process as long as you're forzen...

[0kelvin]

I'm against immortality. We all owe the universe a death.

Agreed. I just wouldn't mind postponing my payment of that debt for a few hundred or thousand years.


Eric