Artists swipe more than I imagined...

[paramnesia]

I read somewhere, though, that sometimes comic book artist do it on purpose as a sort of homage or to purposely allude to a popular image or issue. Maybe it's just an excuse, or maybe it's valid. Maybe it's a matter of how often one does it or how one pulls it off that differentiates homage from laziness.

I wonder, though, each of those characters has been drawn and redrawn so many times by so many people, despite the range of body motions argument, after a while can they be drawn any other way? Of course they could, but is that what readers want? People expect the Spidey swinging through the city or Wolverine or the Beast jumping, slashing and snarling. Maybe it's that these comics are just getting predictable, artists' styles don't stand out as much, or readers are too easily pleased.

Swipe of the week is a neat site. The Battle Angel example surprised me. I thought Battle Angel was published in Japan earlier, but that was 1991, still postdating Elektra. Wow.

That made me wonder, if one copies a pose from an existing comic or photo but draws it in their own style -- not just tracing it directly -- then is that acceptable?

[Anid Maro]

That made me wonder, if one copies a pose from an existing comic or photo but draws it in their own style -- not just tracing it directly -- then is that acceptable?

Well, that's the tricky question, ain't?

There are times where it's clear that someone strictly traced out or otherwise copied an image (painting, comic panel, whatever) out of either sheer laziness or in hopes of duping the work as their own. I wouldn't say there's no debate on the legitimacy of those cases, but it's certainly a bit more one sided.

However there are cases where one lifted a pose but redrew it in their own style, or where they were intentionally making their work look like that of another artists as homage or as an allusion, or so-and-so's Spiderman looks a lot like Stan Lee's Spiderman because it is Stan Lee's character after all, so on and so forth.

Those are the instances where opinion is a bit more divided. Partially because it's unclear if the artist was being dishonest, and partially because every artist knows that every piece they do is based off of other stuff they've seen. Particularly that last bit makes the waters muddy, because we're all guilty to some extent, heh.

If you are looking for the legal definition of acceptable, well there's a pretty clear cut statement somewhere in some law book. But if you want to know if it's ethical, well then the best you can hope for is to be able to formulate your own answer because there is so much disagreement that there isn't any one single answer to that.

Hell, some people have problems just articulating why it's wrong to pass anothers work off as your own... let alone be able to define where homage/allusion/inspiration/reference ends and where plagiarism begins.

It's one of those lovely and fun gray areas of life.

[me_art_and_animation]

swiping others work is certainly wrong but this is world and u cant stop it. it happens in every field. on the name of inspiration people copy other hard work. any way others can simply copy form but not rhythm and emotions. again using photo reference are according to me not copy but they should be used only for practice purpose and not for professional one.

[Pilgrim1099]

The question then would be should this practice of swiping be exposed for what it is? How much would that affect the industry of today and would it force them to take a harder stance on that practice, making comic illustrators think twice before doing it?

I'm aware that there is a blog that exposes it, but why not shoot it straight to the actual mainstream sites such as Newsrama?

[ploy]

I know a guy who worked at Marvel and he said they have a pose archive that people can use containing every pose from every character since the start.

[Flake]

I know a guy who worked at Marvel and he said they have a pose archive that people can use containing every pose from every character since the start.

I'd like to see the reference for Ajax in a breakdancing contest with the Aquarian plz.

[rpace]

I know a guy who worked at Marvel and he said they have a pose archive that people can use containing every pose from every character since the start.

I call bullshit on that. Marvel has no such thing, neither does DC. Both have extensive archives of the books they've published for editorial continuity reference, but not some massive swipe file.

Hell, Marvel doesn't even have an in-house art department anymore. They were cut back during the massive firings during the bankruptcy days.

Swipers rely on their own long-boxes for reference.

~R

[Pilgrim1099]

I call bullshit on that. Marvel has no such thing, neither does DC. Both have extensive archives of the books they've published for editorial continuity reference, but not some massive swipe file.

Hell, Marvel doesn't even have an in-house art department anymore. They were cut back during the massive firings during the bankruptcy days.

Swipers rely on their own long-boxes for reference.

~R

That's exactly the problem with the other poster's claim. How can freelancers swipe from Marvel's archives from a distance when they're under a deadline? That idea never made sense.

I just don't think swiping is cool, though unless they're doing a parody issue to make tribute to other artists.

[ploy]

I think it is also important to remember that artists have long draw from the work of others for position of bodily form. Back then they just did not have copyright laws.

[gardenrusalka]

I wonder what they're thinking. Obviously, someone, somewhere knows the pose. I would be afraid to lose my artistic street cred. Granted, it isn't one of those other reasons (homage, etc.), which is still...eh.

[Dusty]

Crap. Crap. And crap.

That was harsh... Well, I don't consider them fully-ranged artists, like many concept artists strive to be. (Myself not included. I focus on characters. So I guess it wouldn't surprise me to be called "crap" by someone in one of their professions. But they can reference my signature.)

I notice you don't have your website in your profile.
I'd love to see it

-D

[FlameDragon]

I thought this was interesting, on the blog it showed Roger Cruz swiping alot from Joe Mad. I was looking at one of Joe Mad's comics from around that time and Joe Mad fired back at Cruz:



On the newspaper it says "Cruz swipes again", and on the wall below the pizza sign it has the name "Cruz" and an X through it.

[MidgardSerpent]

I thought this was interesting, on the blog it showed Roger Cruz swiping alot from Joe Mad. I was looking at one of Joe Mad's comics from around that time and Joe Mad fired back at Cruz:
(....)

On the newspaper it says "Cruz swipes again", and on the wall below the pizza sign it has the name "Cruz" and an X through it.

I remember that page and I don't think it was intended as any genuine animosity towards Cruz, I recall them being studio mates or friendly acquaintances of some kind.

[BubbaGump]

There's a frightening pattern when you see where the swipes are coming from. The same names keep popping up: Rob Liefeld, Todd McFarlane. These are guys who never knew the fundamanentals of anatomy or life drawing. Aside from Jim Lee...Image sucks. Well, it depends too because Jim Lee started the entire trend of cross hatching shit to death and pumping steroids directly into the biceps. But it was HIS style first and foremost. It's popularity just got blown out of proportion and in turn you've got these hacks and posers copying them without and knowledge of the fundamentals.

And let's face it as badass as some comic books are, it's not exactly a business that warrants creativity, personal style, or strong drawing fundamentals. Draw in the style of the popular trend and you'll most likely have a job. People are stupid. They absolutely LOVE to buy crap. That's why the Billboard chart is an abomination to music, crappy animated films like Shrek 2 and 3 become some of the top grossing films of all time, and why Rob Liefeld is still getting work...even as we speak!!!

I'm not bashing comics. I love the superhero scene. But it makes you miss guys like Jack Kirby. The Image craze...unfortunately it's still here. Jack Kirby lives on in talent like Mike Mignola, Bruce Timm, and in turn Dustin Nguyen and Darwyn Cooke. THESE are the guys who draw in the style of their predecessors and make it their own. But their sales stay low, Bruce Timm can't find a job because he draws too cartoony, and no one even knows who these brilliant people from the Kirby-school are.

There's no logic in business. People love to buy crap!

(aside from The Dark Knight, I'm glad a film of true quality is getting the success it deserves).

[rpace]

I remember that page and I don't think it was intended as any genuine animosity towards Cruz, I recall them being studio mates or friendly acquaintances of some kind.

You are misremembering. Roger Cruz is an Americanized version of the artist's name; he's from Brazil. He swiped aggressively from American and America-based Joe Mad, and I don't think a meeting between the two would be a pleasant one.


~R

[NoSeRider]

Most of those comic book artists that swipe seem to be mostly self taught, or only studied 'comic books'.

Life drawing doesn't seem foremost in their learning. I've also noted they all seem to have the same 'generic' style.

Personally, I think alot of comic book art lacks a certain foundation, but that's what sold in the 1990's.

There seems to be a trend to go back to the silver age of comic book type drawing....like Neal Adams and John Buscema....which can be seen in Alex Ross, Mike Mayhew and Adam Hughes.

I don't think Alex Ross, Mike Mayhew or Adam Hughes have been caught swiping except from their own photo reference?

I guess if you want to make something original you study from life, not comic book artists?

[gr4f]

i agree completely with you noserider...as a person who grew up in the 90's with the artists such as mcfarlane, liefeld, etc., i found that when i was learning to draw comics, i just copied what they were all doing-exactly. and you know what? it messed up my anatomy so bad that i had to go back and re-learn most of it, because i had to learn an arm didn't have 4 biceps.

to anyone who wants to be a comic artist out there, i say do what everyone here tells you to do-draw from life, and get a good understanding of form, composition, etc. if not, your work will suffer greatly. i'm working on my own comic stuff, but i've stopped reading what's out there now-a-days, because most (def. NOT all) artists just don't have a good grasp on how images should be drawn; i see many comic artists who are relying on the colorists to put fancy textures down and bright colors to fix whatever mistakes they initially made and to compensate for below-average work. that's why i respect alex ross and marko so highly, because they understand form, lighting, composition, and all of the basic fundamentals necessary to do compelling work.

and for the record, i'm guilty of referencing car photos and models for the pin-ups for my comic...i just want it to look as real as possible; i don't want to learn every bolt for like 9 different cars lol