Artist why are we so untrusting..

[Ebony-chan]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.

I can't speak for every artist just for myself and past experiences. Many arist aren't to quick to trust employers because many of us have been burned before.I can't even count the number of times, I was tricked into doing a free character portrait, weapons sheet or background.

By a fast talking silver tongue scam employer who promised they give you the whole job and exposure. A dream come true for an artist enspecially for a new young artist hopeing to break into the field. From the scam employers I've dealt with they say things like this.

Oh just do a quick detail of this for me and if I like it enough. I'll give you the job and some great exposure.

Or

Your portfoilo is great but I don't know if my character would look good in your style. Can you draw one or two of my characters to help me decide. Ooh don't worry I'll get back to you as soon as you send the image.

Of course reality set in when I never heard from any of these parties again. I'm sure many of you here have gone through something similiar to this. Having someone con and lie to you then steal your artwork. Hardens a person abit because it' hurtful this barely happens to the older artist. Because maybe they know what to look for or they themselves had been cheated when they were younger. So they know the signs.

So to wrap up the first question. I'll end it here art isn't something many artist come up with overnight. It takes time and planning, money and supplies and lot of hard work. If you're a writer just imagine someone stealing your work and publishing it then becoming famous off it.

Ok on to the second question.

Why are so many artist money hungry? We're not just like anyone else we have bills to pay and the cost of living is very high in some places. We have to charge a certain amount to stay alive many of us take our art careers very seriously.

It annoys me when some employers say. Oh it's not about the money it's about the craft. But it takes a good deal of money and time to build up an professional piece of work. If you run out of supplies, then an artist simply has to go out and buy more and many times that is not cheap.

I know my own art supplies cost me anywhere from $30-$150.If painting in photoshop i sometimes takes me 8hrs or more to make a simple sketch come to life. I can't walk into an art store and say. " Hey give me this stuff and if I like it. I come back and pay for it even give your store exposure."

Third question. Why does everything have to be about money with them.

Because art is like any other business though many people seem to have very little respect for it. Just because we're artist doesn't mean we no longer have to pay bills like the rest of the world. We still do though it would be nice to get a few free things now wouldn't it?

Instead of coming here asking for free art most of the time, why not come and talk with some of the artists here. You know. Get you know and understand us.

Does anyone else here have any stories and feed-back to share on the topic?

[Haymaker]

well, I'm not a 'real' artist (yet), but I know that many people still don't recognize art as a career. For them, art is nothing more then copying what we can see: They give a big laugh for the daily newspaper cartoon, but just dont get it how difficult it is to draw a real-looking knight. Artist are blessed with talent, but always need to improve their skills. And that's what many people don't know: the big difference between talent and knowledge/hard labor.

Art is more then just some lines and color: It's putting your whole soul into it!

[Kainin]

Hmm well im new on this whole thing and have a job posted on the
Un paid jobs section, but thats as im doing it for free to get Exp in this area.
I have a very buisness type mind so I make sure any work that I do even as a sample is sent with the understanding that I own that art work untill its paid for.
So from both sides of the mirror I find it a whole lot easyer to come across as if I was in the office and go for the hard sell
If they cant understand that they will need to pay an employee from a project that will be making money then they wont get far fast

[PRIMEtarget]

You're just on a steep learning curve when you're wet behind the ears, and people exploit you. Margins are tight, just like any other industry and you're going to get chewed up and spat out a few times before long. I'm not bitter, I just turn around and do it to someone else further down the food chain. Just remember this one thing. 'Quality counts'. You produce any eye popping concept with imagination beyond any limit and you're gonna get noticed. Get noticed and you're gonna get fought over. Get fought over, and you're gonna get paid since they don't want to risk losing you. Concentrate on your skills as an artist, the rest shapes itself. Don't be mediocre. Okay... now let's make waves.

[Seedling]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

[otis]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.

Are you sure you are interviewing at real companies? LOL! I don't think I've ever heard such crazy questions before? Maybe you are hearing these questions becuase you get defensive when the subject comes up; inadvertantly making you sound like a untrusting,money hungry artist!

Tip: First impressions are everything, and if anybody can sense that you are insecure, unsure or just plain ignorant about business, you will get taken advantage of again.

I was tricked into doing a free character portrait, weapons sheet or background.

You weren't "tricked", you were just ignorant.

Go buy yourself the books "Business and Legal forms for illustrators". "How to survive and prosper as an artist." and.."2007 GAG Ethics and Pricing Guid Handbook."

You just need to learn some business sense.

[Kahl]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

I can honestly say that Art schools need to be sure they are also teaching this. I graduated having only had access to ONE business course very ambiguously labeled: 'Art Business.' Its main focus was to explain the differences in copyrights and trademarks, etc. and to explain how to establish yourself as self employed (which really means they showed us what the county DBA forms looked like). And all of this is great information, but most of that could have been covered in one class and with a homework reading assignment. I think if you are going to tell people what legal forms to fill out and why, there also needs to be some coaching on how to conduct oneself professionally, what to expect as a green artist but also where to draw that line. Like you said, Seedling...how not to be taken advantage of. Obviously some of this is trial by fire only...but I was told nothing. Thankfully I was older and had some worldly experience before I went to school and knew that I wasn't going to be handed a degree and TA-DA! I have a job too....but if I'd only listened to what was being told to me I certainly would have thought so. Many of the kids I graduated with did and many of those I've encountered from other schools are facing similar problems. One person I know went to a far more "prestigious" school that often touts that they teach Fine art not Commercial art (a slam at the school I graduated from because their names are very similar but my Alma Mater is sort of chuckled at as the "poor man's college" or "just a trade school"). The poor guy went into a horrible depression after school because all through college until he got his degree they told him how marvelous he was, so talented, but never prepared him for what getting a job as an artist would entail....he seriously believed that he would graduate and museums would be throwing money at him to do exhibitions. Sadly he grew so frustrated that he's given up on art as a profession entirely (does it only for himself now) and I really think a lot of that can be prevented with the proper coaching.

I'm not saying that the institutions are solely responsible for an artists business savvy....but I certainly think I could have benefited from some practically business courses more so than studying calculus and quantum equations. Don't get me wrong...I know math is important, but the study of economics is math too. Career Development should be incorporated.

Bleh...sorry....enough ranting on my part. Too much coffee.

[Ebony-chan]

Are you sure you are interviewing at real companies? LOL! I don't think I've ever heard such crazy questions before? Maybe you are hearing these questions becuase you get defensive when the subject comes up; inadvertantly making you sound like a untrusting,money hungry artist!

Tip: First impressions are everything, and if anybody can sense that you are insecure, unsure or just plain ignorant about business, you will get taken advantage of again.


You weren't "tricked", you were just ignorant.

Go buy yourself the books "Business and Legal forms for illustrators". "How to survive and prosper as an artist." and.."2007 GAG Ethics and Pricing Guid Handbook."

You just need to learn some business sense.

Well at the time when you 15yrs old you don't think. There's no way anyone should be offended when someone charges you for a service. Do I get defensive. Oh yes enpecially if someone wants top notch work for little or nothing.

My time and supplies cost alot. This place is no where near as bad as deviantart. You should go and see the offers there. $10-50 for a professional website. 5-30 for a realist portrait, but many artists get sucked in and it's not the older ones but the younger artist.

So now I'm older and a bit wiser. I still get a good number of offers for commissions. Some good and others terrible. I can't walk into a art supply store and want the best suppiles and not want to pay the prices for them.

I have alot of books dealing with art and business. But it's good to educate the younger group so they won't be taken advantage of as much.

[Miran]

I must say I agree with Ebony Chan here. Deviant Art offers are usually a joke. Most of the people come there just to make fun of artists by giving them a had time about work and then disappearing. And that kind of behavior is encouraged since nobody tries to put an end to it.

Don't worry about cheap offers. Yes, they're after a professional website but they have no idea what's it supposed to look like (otherwise they wouldn't be lowballing and asking for designers among newbs).

My idea about this problem is WHAT YOU PAY IS WHAT YOU GET!

So every client/artist gets what he deserves; nothing more nothing less.

[HectorBustamante]

So many employers I've noticed over the years asked these simple questions.

1. Why are artist so untrusting?

2. Why are so many of them so money hungry.

3. Why does everything have to be about money to them.

Mmm I think most of the time this questions are formuled from particulars non related to entertaiment industry. A videogame company, a film production and such kind of things never understimate your work because that's what their bussines is after all: audiovisuals.


1.- The artists are "untrusting" to those particulars because they don't see concept art as a serious job. They think most of us are just teenagers trying to get some easy money for the weekend. I recently faced a guy who offered me 35 dollars to redesign his whole site! One of two: a)this person doesn't know a penny about how much does a site costs or b) he thinked he could trick a silly teenager with a cut-my-grass fee... jeez! I have an uncle who is a grasskeeper and he wins a lot more per hour! And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

So... if you don't fit on their needings, you're automatically discarded as a profesional. Unless you're a lucky bastard and you get a work inside the industry...

2.- We are money hungry because we do this for... you guess? Money! Geez, Michaelangelo didn't painted the sixtine chapel for free, he had to eat too. This blows my head off... pld: A wise guy here mentioned we're bussines men before artists, so you need to stablish your terms for the deal.

3.- why does everything have to be about money? well... is there something in the world it doesn't have to? This is kinda philosophical here


A long ago I posted in other forum at least 5 different "species" of clients but I can't find the post...

[Ebony-chan]

Mmm I think most of the time this questions are formuled from particulars non related to entertaiment industry. A videogame company, a film production and such kind of things never understimate your work because that's what their bussines is after all: audiovisuals.


1.- The artists are "untrusting" to those particulars because they don't see concept art as a serious job. They think most of us are just teenagers trying to get some easy money for the weekend. I recently faced a guy who offered me 35 dollars to redesign his whole site! One of two: a)this person doesn't know a penny about how much does a site costs or b) he thinked he could trick a silly teenager with a cut-my-grass fee... jeez! I have an uncle who is a grasskeeper and he wins a lot more per hour! And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

So... if you don't fit on their needings, you're automatically discarded as a profesional. Unless you're a lucky bastard and you get a work inside the industry...

2.- We are money hungry because we do this for... you guess? Money! Geez, Michaelangelo didn't painted the sixtine chapel for free, he had to eat too. This blows my head off... pld: A wise guy here mentioned we're bussines men before artists, so you need to stablish your terms for the deal.

3.- why does everything have to be about money? well... is there something in the world it doesn't have to? This is kinda philosophical here


A long ago I posted in other forum at least 5 different "species" of clients but I can't find the post...

It's sad isn't it when people think we can just pull grand works out of thin air with little to no work at all. I've had to turn down lots of jobs because they didn't pay above $50 and they wanted professional top of the line work.

[digitell]

Hi Ebony,
I agree with Seedling. You have to have a set of terms to go by and stick to them. If the client cannot go by these terms, walk away. You must state your terms up front. I try to first sell myself by telling the client what I offer, show my online portfolio. I then tell them how fast they can expect the first draft and if revisions are needed how quick I can come back with them. I then tell them what my price will be and base that price on what they are requesting.
I then tell them I do require one half my fee down payment ( down payment sounds better than up front). I tell them that the remainder is due after completion of project.
In my experience if a client is serious about the job, they happily abide by my terms, if not..I just do not hear from them again, which is fine. I will not do business with anyone who does not agree to this.
On the other hand, if the client is someone I have worked with before and I am familiar with them, I will begin on the project before the down payment arrives..but I still require the down payment.
This method has worked for me for the last 4 years. I have not been burnt yet.
Hope this helps!

[HectorBustamante]

Hi Ebony,
I agree with Seedling. You have to have a set of terms to go by and stick to them. If the client cannot go by these terms, walk away. You must state your terms up front. I try to first sell myself by telling the client what I offer, show my online portfolio. I then tell them how fast they can expect the first draft and if revisions are needed how quick I can come back with them. I then tell them what my price will be and base that price on what they are requesting.
I then tell them I do require one half my fee down payment ( down payment sounds better than up front). I tell them that the remainder is due after completion of project.
In my experience if a client is serious about the job, they happily abide by my terms, if not..I just do not hear from them again, which is fine. I will not do business with anyone who does not agree to this.
On the other hand, if the client is someone I have worked with before and I am familiar with them, I will begin on the project before the down payment arrives..but I still require the down payment.
This method has worked for me for the last 4 years. I have not been burnt yet.
Hope this helps!

amen!!

[kendi]

I have a very buisness type mind so I make sure any work that I do even as a sample is sent with the understanding that I own that art work untill its paid for.

i don't think that this so called 'understanding' is truly existent. i think it's a figment of your imagination, and you need to get it in writing and signed as proof of their so-called 'understanding' as well as their agreement.

[kendi]

And of course, they want it done for yesterday... that's the most anoying part.

yes, i agree. the most annoying part is not the $5 a drawing offer. JUST SAY NO!

[Coinpurse]

As an artist, you must also be a businessman. You must be willing to say “these are my terms. Take ‘em or leave ‘em.” And you must be willing to walk away if the other party isn’t interested in your terms.

couldn't have said it better. Something I believe is the most important rule when it comes to working in the industry. If there interested in interviewing you to begin with, then they should be thinking twice before they decline your requests. Ive been shut down a lot in the past, but the more you keep going and revolving your life around your art, better things will come. It all takes time, I'm just getting there myself.

[Beelow]

Contract, that's all I have to say. It's legally binding and you get rid of flakers instantly.

[Ebony-chan]

You know I have to agree with Kendi many of these so called have no knowledge on how artwork is done and how long it takes to make it look professional. Artist just don't pull their work out of thin air.

That's why not for like 8yrs I've been asking for a Contract like beelow said or half th payment up front. Just yesterday someone came to me and asking me for what?! Yes you guessed it professional pieces of their characters, weapons and backgrounds. That's right they wanted 6 characters, 6 background and 6 weapons sheets. At first they agreed to my prices and I asked for a contract and they said ok.

Next day in my e-mail. I get an message from them saying they were sorry but they found an artist who would do all the work for $2-5 per page. But they would happyily give me the project if I did it at their prices. I told that person to have a nice day and we could not do business.

How someone could buy art supplies let along live on 2-5 commissions is beyond me. However alot of my clients are good and have no problem accepting my terms.

[kendi]

yea. .

[kendi]

[kendi]

there will be DIRE consequences!!!

[Ebony-chan]

You've all made really good points. So far I've learned that if you build your portfolio up to the best you can and then show it. Employers will come. The flakey ones will go away after you give them your prices and talk about contracts. However the professional and good ones will stay and talk with you and be happy to maye out a contract or set up a payment plan.

[kendi]

i wish it were that easy... ahahhahahahhahhahahha

but that's what these forums are for, right? so that we go forth in the right direction!

[Ebony-chan]

i wish it were that easy... ahahhahahahhahhahahha

but that's what these forums are for, right? so that we go forth in the right direction!

Me to Kendi so far I've had alot of flakey employers and very few good ones. I wish there was a easier way to weed them out.

[kendi]

hi ebony, i've been very lucky so far.

[devilminer]

First, get a part-time job or something. This will give you money and the time you need for when you do commissions or other work rather than just sitting and waiting desparately for a job offer from these employers.

Next, set up a nice web page and design it like you wish. Put it up on Comicartfans.com or artwanted.com. If you wish, make your own website (there are hundreds of free website creators out there...just google them). This will be your true portfolio. Keep it organized. You can see mine at this link as a sample: http://comicartfans.com/GalleryDetail.asp?GCat=1613 . Notice how it is structured in a manner where it is easy to read and navigate through.

And last, don't be afraid of what you think your work is worth. If you're just starting out, charge maybe $9/hr, which should make a 6-7 hour artwork stand on its own at a comfortable $50. Treat it as a job. Your client might want some examples and you can always refer back to your online sites as reference. (They usually say,"I really like the (blank) image. Can you do the piece in this style?") A client wants to see your work as proof that you are up to the challenge. The more practice you get, the higher you should charge (remember, your rate includes all of your reference books, experience, supplies, etc., so don't be afraid to say, "I charge $15/hr and it will take me 7 hours to complete it.) And another thing I've tried is making a quick contract (it can even be done by email. As long as you have it in writing, this acts as your contract. ) Go over the terms and conditions, and lay down a down payment fee. This will relieve many clients because they won't have to slap down all the dough just yet. When you finish your piece, scan it and email it to your client (cropped and low resolution so as to avoid freebies) so he/she can pay you the rest.

There are many ways. These are just a few I've tried. The down payment works the best. The emails are a must because you have the negotiations in writing. Know your worth. Your gut feeling will usually tell you what you should charge for the artwork. If they don't email back, just say ''whatever'' or "bummer" and go on with your life. You'll get what you deserve in the long run, just don't give up.

[kendi]

$9/hour for artwork? no way. you can get paid being a receptionist for the same or even more at some places.

people get $15 to guard doors.

[magnut]

Ebony-chan,

You're getting all kinds of great advice on this subject. Besides my main suggestion to always have a king-sized bottle of Tylenol available to you at all times, I can also suggest:

When you know you're inexperienced in business matters, it is best to get the GRAPHIC ARTISTS GUILD - PRICING & ETHICAL GUIDELINES book and study it.

Then it's a trial-by-error process of applying those professional standards espoused in that book. If you're able to, take your own city-college business courses that aren't so expensive.

You're still in for the times when you make the totally wrong decision, and you'll end up knowing you've accepted a job that is way too much work for way too little pay. There's a prison analogy about learning not to 'drop the soap' that comes to mind... but sometimes this is how we learn, by being bit in the ass, and then doing everything you can to avoid future ass-pain.

After a while you'll develop an instinct for this. If your work is very good, and you're just simply a bad businessman, then you can look into getting an agent to represent your work. When you do this, you really must learn how to ask questions (which you're already doing, and that's great). This would be a great opportunity to learn, so eventually you may not need an agent. Make sure everything you learn and absorb is corroborated by supporting information, proving that information is solid.

It's a lovely thing to learn all this, isn't it? It just makes you want to drink heavily, and go to sleep...

Good luck.

[Kainin]

i don't think that this so called 'understanding' is truly existent. i think it's a figment of your imagination, and you need to get it in writing and signed as proof of their so-called 'understanding' as well as their agreement.

I dont mean understanding as in a non real world figment, as in its copywrited to my self untill its payed for. Another word for an understanding is agreement as in contracted agreement.

They are asking for a service that cost money and as long as they know the cost and you know the scale then you all should get what your after. When your drawing your an Artist, when your selling your a sales person

[Ebony-chan]

I'm glade I posted this topic there's so much to learn here to use later on.

But I can't help to wonder why many employers with rpg or novels don't want to pay for professional work. I mean don't they know that their not the first to come up with a warrior game or a book about magic.

That their in books and rpgs are up against other better authors and professional artist whose work alone can sell their game or novel.

And people starting a new business who only want to pay 10-15 for their business logo.

These people are doomed to fail. Why because they don't seem to taking the business their in seriously. Well let's see if let's say an author has James Rymans art on their cover and the next author doesn't believe they should pay alot of money for their cover.

Now for some reason they think the public won't know the difference between good artwork and suckie work.

So this is my message to the authors,business people looking for cheap logo and rpg companies looking for cheap work.

The public can tell humans are vision creatures!

We can tell if the artwork is professional or not and for that.

How good the artwork is will depends if you business product will sale or not.