The Netherlands.

[Runedemilot]

Right, so.. I'm from the Netherlands, and I'm looking for an education in art (eventually I'd like to do something like character design). I've been looking into local art schools, I found a grand total of three.

One is a school that does game design, animation, music and soundeffects, theatre production, fashion, industrial design, writing, acting, etc.. unfortunately the only thing they don't seem to have is a regular "learn to draw" program.

Then there's the "academy of art". Sounded nice, but the descriptions on their website made me raise my eyebrow more than once. It says they try to teach "creativity", and that it's students often turn in poor work to recieve higher marks. They do teach all the good stuff.. anatomy, perspective, color, lighting..
Here's an exposition page of some of their students..: http://www.kunstacademiehaarlem.nl/kh-webexpo.htm

And finally, the "mixacademy". Their website basically says "Do you wanna be a: cartoonist, illustrator, graphical designer, fashion designer, photograpther, etc, etc? Then this is the place for you!"
When things sound too good to be true, they usually are.. I'm not sure what to think of these guys. They're also quite expensive, and the gouvernment won't give you a dime if you study there. 3000 euro per year.. I could get my hands on that type of money, but that's a lot of cash for such a dodgy sounding school.

Here's the websites for all of the above, in case any of you know Dutch, or can tell me something from looking at the presentation:
http://www.hku.nl/hku/show
http://www.kunstacademiehaarlem.nl/kh.htm
http://www.mixacademy.nl/

I'm not completely sure what I want, I'm not sure at all how to get there, and I'm absolutely oblivious when it comes to picking the right school. I hope someone can give me some type of advice, thanks in advance.

[Ios]

eh, I've been to an open dag from mix and it isn't a regular art school. It's a particuliere school and they only have 4 teachers and one class room. The main focus of that school is to be there for the drop-outs and the MAVO people and it's some sort of vooropleiding for one of the other schools.

About the other schools,
I'm going to do the vooropleiding at the HKU next year (right now I'm in 5VWO) and I'm really looking forward to it. But all the schools I've been to, indeed seem to focus mainly on creativity above craftmanship. To me, that's not too big a problem as I want to do something like graphic design later, but I understand it's quite frustrating for you.
I've also been at a stuvo (studievoorlichting) from avans. They told me avans in Breda focusses 50% on autonome kunst and 50% graphic design (I can't remember exactly what the second 50% was about) and avans in s'Hertogenbosch focusses 20% on autonome kunst and 80% on the rest.
I don't really know how that relationship is put at HKU but the Illustration department didn't look really promising IMO. I haven't seen all of it ofcourse.
I'm still going to visit a couple of other schools and if I come across a school which fits your tastes, I'll try to let you know.
Ios

[Runedemilot]

Thanks for the info, and I really hope you'll find something..

I've checked a few more now, all seem to either go straight on to hardcore graphic design or dwindle near expressionism, which to me sounds pretty useless if you're looking for a job in something like the gamesindustry.

Anyone able to shed a light on what would be the right direction to follow? 'cause I'm not completely sure..

[Coen]

Runedemilot, I'm currently looking at these 2 schools I found recently (especially the Wackers Academie, been to an open day):

http://www.wackersacademie.nl/
http://www.klassieke-academie.nl/

I mentioned these in this thread you might find interesting too: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93952

[mono2k5]

You also have the ArtEZ in Arnhem. A friend of mine is on a waiting-list for it. He's the first one on it, so as soon as someone desides to drop out, he's in for next year.
Me, I'm going to do Industrial Design (UTwente), and I'll just try to focus on anatomy in my spare time.

[Haymaker]

I visited the open dag of the HKU (Animation department), and it was really promising. The students/teachers I talked to really had 'the fire'. The main focus is animation (doh), but also story and character development is important. They really gave the idea of artistic freedom, opposite of Illustration what was all about the commercial stuff (nothing wrong with though).

[Runedemilot]

Runedemilot, I'm currently looking at these 2 schools I found recently (especially the Wackers Academie, been to an open day):

http://www.wackersacademie.nl/
http://www.klassieke-academie.nl/

I mentioned these in this thread you might find interesting too: http://conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93952

Ah, now that is helpfull, thanks mate.

So, my options are.. get an education in design and teach myself, or attend one of those two academies? Both sound like reasonable options..

[Coen]

That's the same dilemma I got at the moment Runedemilot (except that I won't attend a design academy). I'm not sure yet about the quality and the skills of the teachers at the Wackers Academie, and it costs quite some money (and it's not an official academy so that makes it even more expensive).

[klassiekeacademie]

The Open Days of http://www.klassieke-academie.nl are on Tuesday 1, Wednesday 2 and Thursday 3 may 2007, 11.00-17.00 h. on the location Akerkhof 43, Groningen (centre of the town).
There 'll be an exhibition of works from students and also a diashow according this education. Everyone is welcome.

[OdinUa]

I haven't seen someone who mentioned KABK (http://kabk.nl). I was thinking to go there to study Fine Arts. But student’s works they showed on open day "impressed" me so much , that I've changed my decision. Have someone heard about this school? It's in The Hague.
So I've decided to go to study to an atelier. Now I'm seeking a good one. Maybe you can help?

By the way, useful articles about formal art education. http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutoria..._training.html, http://www.artrenewal.org/articles/2.../richards1.asp

[Coen]

klassiekeacademie - I assume you're speaking on behalf of de Klassieke Academie itself, am I right? If so, I'd really like to post a question for you here if you don't mind: What is the exact (or main) difference between the Wackers Academie en de Klassieke Academie?

Thanks.

OdinUa - Hey OdinUa, the only schools I found in the Netherlands that really (seem to) teach fundamental drawing and painting are the ones I posted earlier in this thread. I'm looking at these schools but I'm not sure yet what to do. I think other than that the only way is to find something abroad.

[Gazeebo]

The "Alfa College" in Groningen will be starting a 4 year course in Game Design starting in september 2007.
I will be one of the participants

They will be mainly focussing on the design process of games and you will be send to companies that are "in the business" for a uhm... "stage" ( dont know the word in english)
Drawing will play a big role here as well as 3D modelling.
You should only follow this course if you are not that good yet though, because otherwise I think you will be very bored.
I have met a few of the teachers and they are quite cool and talented. Also they will be hiring new tutors especially for this education.

[Coen]

Thanks for the tip Gazeebo, I'll check that one out. I'm even thinking about training on my own for a about a year and after that moving to the US for proper education. It's really hard to think about this tho, since it would be a huge (and expensive) step for me..

hmm.. difficult stuff!

[JellevdVegt]

hey guys.

cool i'm not the only one asking himself why there arent any proper artschools in the netherlands, i searched for a proper school and visited opendagen at: design academy eindhoven, gerrit rietveld academy amsterdam, hku utrecht and they all disappointed me very very much. they all teach anatome art. so you have to get a really big fat brush, smack paint to a big ass canvas and you have to search a meaning in that or something. so i asked a student why they dont teach the classic style anymore. she said that nobody see's purpose in ppainting very reallistic. my opinion is that the opposite is true. design academy is totally different by the way. its industrial design. they teach you about MAKING STUFF. and (almost) no painting as far as i have seen. so you will be making days at the work table making stuff. not much drawing in a 'arty' way. more in a 'design' way.

Great tips about the schools klassieke academie groningen and art academy antwerpen. i am thinking about taking classes there.

There are some things i am confused about in 'the industry' and the 'type' of artists there are. Because i see 2 type of concept artists: industrial design artists (feng zhu, ryan church, scott roberston) and art academy artist (carlos huante, ian mccaig, san jun)

Now i think the big difference is that concept artist with industrial design as background, they learn much more about design. and for me, i really want to learn about design and art. so drawing man made stuff, like feng zhu or ryan church, and less characters..

now i dont think that these things i can learn at an art school like in antwerpen or groningen. Well, if i go to an industrial design school they wont teach me ANYTHING about art, composition, colors and mood and so on.. thats for sure.. i will end up making stuff at the worktable, wich is not where i am after. so what should i do?

[klassiekeacademie]

The main difference between the Wackers Academie and the Klassieke Academie is that you can only enter the KA after succeeding an entrance examination. Furthermore there are examinations after each year, there is no freedom in choosing programs or tutors and tou have to do a lot of homework.

[Art_Addict]

I can not speak for any of the schools in the Netherlands but I've been to the Academy in Antwerp and believe me, it's not the place you want to go to if your goal is to become an illustrator/concept artist or a painter with knowledge of the basics. The Academy of Antwerp represents the "conceptual" art movement 'pur sang'. In fact I don't know of any teacher at the Academy that has an understanding of classical painting methods, sound color theory or material knowledge wich is sad.
I would not advice to come to Belgium for an art education at all btw if you care about solid foundations. Wich is too bad actually cause history shows many greats have thaught at the academy in the past. So sad to see all that knowledge got flushed down the drain somewhere along the way.

[Coen]

Any of you ever considered moving abroad (like the US)? I think my choice right now is to move or abroad or study music instead. This is some difficult shit

[Maxine Schacker]

What do you consider affordable? I've contacted at least one of you before and wonder if you have given serious thought to Max the Mutt in Toronto. The depth of our drawing curriculum alone makes the school outstanding. Look into it! We were founded by artists and animators and always followed the old Disney/Warner Bros guidelines for schools, so much so that when we only offered a diploma in animation we had graduates hired as illustrators and concept artists. Now we've expanded and in addition to an advanced diploma in 3D production and animation, offer a three year diploma in illustration and are in the process of finalizing plans for a 4 year diploma in concept art. All diplomas share the same first year (traditional fine art skills), so even people starting Sept.'07 will be able to go into second year Concept Art in Sept'08.
Thee are only 3 or 4 seats left for September. Look at the website!Check out the faculty. We are a very international community in a very international city(Toronto).We are, by design, affordable, probably the most affordable program of this quality in North America. Integrity is very important to us, and we need serious, hardworking students who have a professional attitude, a sense of humor, the ability to work in teams as well as independently, and stamina. Its a very intense course of study. I really think you owe it to yourselves to take a good look at what we're about. If you have questions, feel free to contact me here or Van Olson at [email protected].

I give you my word - this is the last time I'll post to students from the Netherlands!Good luck to you all.

Maxine Schacker







I hope you find the education you need.

[Coen]

Hey Maxine Shacker, I figured you also sent a mail to me! I've had some problems with my e-mail but it's all working now. Thanks for the help, I'll definately take a look at it since it really is less expensive than other schools. The new concept art program sounds very interesting, any info about that program itself is more than welcome (seems like the website doesn't provide any info on this yet). There are some other schools I'm looking at as well but I really gotta think about taking such a big step, moving abroad and such.

[Maxine Schacker]

Hi Coen, I know airfare is high, but if you have air miles you might consider taking the one month drawing intensive. It's very affordable (I think the whole thing is $1400) and it will give you a good idea about the school and Toronto.
The Concept Art Diploma has the same first year as all the diplomas. Second and third year are a combination of animation and illustration courses with the addition of more courses in painting in oils (life painting, portrait painting, and the costumed model), a course in drawing a sustained pose, concept courses, and a fourth year that teaches Maya for Concept Art and then uses everything you've learned to do "real time" projects. We've had input from some very generous guys working on Syms 2 for EA, and from a major gaming company in Toronto.It's all very exciting for me - I'm a painter and I've developed the new painting courses. We should be handing everything in to the government in about 2 weeks, and soon as we've gotten approval, we'll post it all.

Feel free to contact me if you have other questions. You can speak to current students by looking at our thread - several have written comments.

[Runedemilot]

Moving to the USA to get the right education would be nothing short of awesome, but I myself do not have a budget that would allow me to pay for the flight, school and the stay. Flying and living there plus paying the school is a lot of money, especially if I'd wanna do the full course. And only doing a one year course to check things out would add to the cost significantly..

I'm 21 already, and I have next to no education up till now. The gouvernment won't fund me now that I'm 21, and I'm not very rich either.. I've looked into things, and came to the conclusion that even Groningen is too far away for me. I can't pay for all the traveling, let alone rent a room.
I've ran around my house in panic, it didn't help much, and I still don't have a clue what to do next.

[Coen]

Maxine Shacker Thanks for the info, all in all it sounds pretty great but still I'd have to get in debt to do such things. Maybe I'll just spend some more time training myself for a good foundation and see how far I can get before looking at any schools. Later on, after making some money, I could always take some courses I guess.

Runedemilot Hey man, I didn't know your situation is that similar to mine (turning 21 in september). I'm setting up a schedule to train myself for a while, so I hope I'll have the disciplin to do so. The only problem left is to find a better income which also leaves time for studying (even more so cause I got another time-consuming passion which is music). I'll also try to find a place to draw from the nude figure.

[Maxine Schacker]

If I can be of any help, let me know. I'm planning to put together a thread on painting and color. Also, Max the Mutt (Toronto, Canada) does have a scholarship fund. We don't have an international scholarship yet but hope to.I suggest that you get together with friends, hire a model and try going through
the schedules in Nicolaides, The Natural Way to Draw. It's a great place to start. Also, get a hold of Hawthorne On Painting (it;s available on Amazon and very inexpensive). If you haven't started already, draw from life daily in a sketchbook.Go to the Rembrandt House and study all the tiny etchings on the wall. What an education!

[boogz]

Hey, I saw a few threads here, but this one has the most recent date, so I'll just post here. Also, Coen, I saw your post on the Netherlands sketch group thread, but nobody replied which is kinda sad.

So umm.. I'm having this dilemma for a couple of years now (right now I study Multimedia on MBO level) and still haven't found a good answer. I was thinking of going to Antwerpen too, but Art_Addict's post and an email from a guy who studies there changed my mind. But if there is no solid school at all, you're left with a few choices. I consider all of them quite seriously, because I want to do this right the first time.

Anyways.. You could find out which school in the Netherlands suits you the most and go to that, but at the same time teach yourself (or even better.. let CA teach you a bit) drawing skills.
Second option is finding a small job which pays the rent and food (you could live with some roommates to reduce the costs even more), do that for a few days and the other days draw until your hands start to bleed. Do that till you got decent skills and try finding a job in your preferred field.
And last (and the reason I'm posting here) you could study abroad... Now.. This is a pretty big step to make and very adventurous. But if you go to the right school and it pays of, it was all really worth it, right? Plus you have some extra life experience!

But I'm kinda drifting from the point here.. I buy and read the magazine ImagineFX every month and a while ago they made a top 10 list of digital art schools. Two of them are located in England, which I thought was really cool, because it's not *that* far away AND they speak English there, so you could actually understand them.

The links to the 2 websites are: www.aib.ac.uk and http://amd.uwe.ac.uk
I haven't really dug into the websites yet, but I will soon.

Anyways, I hope you survived reading through my ranting and found help in the links I provided.

[Maxine Schacker]

For a real career in concept art you need to learn the language of representational art. Boogz, I just looked at your sketchbook, and commend you for trying to teach yourself... but try going through the Nicolaides schedules ! Computer skills come last. Drawing and painting skills come first.

[Coen]

Thanks for these links Boogz, I'll take a look at these too. I could go and study abroad or study at the Wackers Academie in Amsterdam. The thing is, I would need to get a loan for any of these options and since I'm not sure if this is the career for me and if I actually CAN be a concept artist, that just seems a bit dumb to do. Maybe I'm talking crap now, I'm not sure.

[Runedemilot]

I've been looking through some jobs, and some of them ask for a pretty specific education.. is simply learning to draw really well gonna cut it at all?

I kinda know what my goal is, but I have no idea how to reach it.

[Coen]

I'm not sure Runedemilot, I think it all depends on your level of skill. It's very possible that it has to be very high to get a job without any education. Lately I got less and less positive about all my ideas to become a concept artist. I'm not sure if I want to leave this country and I think there's not that much work for a concept artist in the Netherlands. I'm looking around for alternative careers but I really feel stuck.

[Maxine Schacker]

Try to be more positive. Its always worthwhile developing yourself and your interests, and we never really know where fate is leading us. There really is alot of info out there, and if you organize yourselves you can work together to start getting skills. Do you all live in the same area? If not, can you find others who have the same goals? Join together! Find a good course in perspective and structural drawing. Hire a model together and go through Nicolaides , "The Natural Way to Draw." You need to be stubborn and determined. You need to really want to do this, and it has to be for yourselves. You are all too young to be so passive! I'm happy to try to help if I can, and I'm sure there are others (Seedling, for example) who will also help, but the energy and the determination have to come from YOU!

Good luck- and take heart.

[Coen]

Thanks alot Maxine, these are the kind of words I need! I started to collapse like a pudding and I just needed some positive talk I guess. I'll definately go on with drawing but I'd like to go to school too. I found a course called "Bachelor of Art and Technology in 3D Computer Animation and Visual Effects" and I think I'll try to get in there. I got some experience in 3D but didn't do it for quite a while so I'm just gonna pick that up again as well. They also pay some attention to drawing so I will try to get some good skills at both 2D and 3D, which increases my chances at landing a job too I think.

The only problem is that the course is full for this year already (starting september), so I'll have to wait another year.. Hopefully I can find another way of making some money instead of the brain dead job I've been working this year.