felt-tips and fading

[sbn..]

Hi all!

I gave away some drawings some fourteen months ago, and now I've seen them again, and they've faded badly. I can't rule out the paper in the equation, but I've given up on the Artline Ergoline felt-tips that I used for them, and which I otherwise liked. (I am using acid-free paper exclusively now).

So, I'm looking for suggestions for "archival-grade" felt-tips / fine-liners. What am I looking for if I want my drawings to last as long as possible? Any good references or books on the different inks (pigment, dye)?

I've tried acceptable pens (in terms of line quality, "action", feel, etc) from Artline, Pilot and Staedtler. I liked the Artline the most and the Staedtler the least.

Also, I sometime use Copic markers to fill in larger areas with black or to shade with gray. Will these fade?

What do you use?

[Ilaekae]

Markers are short term tools and shouldn't be used for "archival" art. Nearly all of them are based on aniline dyes which fade in direct sunlight in a matter of weeks. The same thing happened to the early painters when coal-tar dyes were introduced in Germany back before the turn of the 20th century.

The only truly permanent "paints" are made from a ground pigment suspension, and the only truly permanent inks are the same...india ink, for example. Trying to paint or draw with dyes is like using food coloring because you ran out of watercolor.

If you really want to have some fun (and an education in permanence), dyes are used in the standard printing inks. Just get a nice full color photograph from a magazine that will fit in a cheap plastic frame. Before you close it up, cover half the photo with a thick piece of black paper (make sure it's really opaque) and then hang the mess in your sunniest window facing OUT for about a month. Then slide the black paper out and take a look at the pic. This is what happens to your marker art, only FASTER!

There is NO way to correct for this--no UV glass, no varnishing, no sprays will stop it. It has nothing to do with the paper or surface you're painting/drawing on. It's a problem with the original "paint."

[sbn..]

Thanks Ilaekae, that's some good info.

Just to make things clearer, when you speak of markers, does that include the felt- or fibre-tip fineliners? You know, the size 0.3, 0.5, 0.8 etc. mm?

Sorry if I'm being unclear, but English is not my native language, and I thought felt-tip was the term. From an image search right now, the pens I'm talking about are referred to as "drafting pens", "pigment liners", "drawing pens" or "fine-liners".

They're like these or this.

Some of them promise to be "fade-proof", and they all have pigment ink. Does anyone know what brands have the best reputation for longevity?

Also, if I want a black or gray fatter pen to fill in areas of a drawing done with one of these, and to last as long, is there an alternative to copic / pantone? I'd rather have the convenience of a pen than having to bring a brush and ink for work in the field.

[CCThrom]

In the US, they call these "art pens" among other things. Micron and Faber-Castell are some of the bigger manufacturers available here. The ink is a combination of dye and pigment. They claim to be lightfast, and they will probably last a pretty long time... but I doubt they are AS lightfast as true india ink.

Faber-Castell makes a "brush" tip version in several colors, including grey... might that work for you? Honestly, for me one of the best ways to lay in grey tone is a brush and good old-fashioned india ink and water. (Also known as "inkwash") It's very difficult if your goal is an even tone, but personally I love the odd accidental marks you get with water media.

[Ilaekae]

CCThrom is right, sbn. Anything that has a dye in the mix somewhere will fade ultimately. The pens you're referring to do have some pigment in them, but it's density is limited by the "binder." the ink has to be fairly thin/fluid to work properly, which means there can't be all that much pigment added. It would be like drawing with watercolors that have been thinned too much...the pigment just falls off the paper.

Sorry for the confusion...what you call felt-tips, I call markers because the primary brand that was available when I was young was Magic Marker, which I still think are more than a damn bit better than Pantones/etc.

People before me called them Gasoline Sticks because they stank to high heaven, and you could get one hell of a high working with them cooped up in a studio for 14 hours...I got a buzz on once working for three days straight that was so bad that I had all the windows open, and when I took a break for some coffee on the window sill, I passed out and fell into the alley next to my studio. Lucky I was on the second floor and there was a huge pile of trash below...

[sbn..]

CCThrom, I'll be looking at the Faber-Castell PITT pens, as they're called.

This page sings their praise (of course), as being fade-proof and having archival grade ink.

Then there's this horribly ugly page on Staedtler pens, that claims ISO-certification for archival use.

I've seen similar claims for the Sakura Pigma Micron pens (complete with an awful infomercial with a lady that was delighted that her great-grandchildren would be able to see the designs for her quilts).

Anyone know anything specific about these brands and how their ink hold up? Now that I think about it, I went from the Pilots and Staedtlers to the disastrous Artlines because the latter seemed to last longer and not have a long semi-dry period at the end of their life. That may have something to do with dye-based ink flowing easier?

I'm only asking because the incident related in the OP has gotten me a bit paranoid. This type of pen really is my "weapon of choice", and in the past I've used whichever one was available and felt right. The drawings in question were small and given to friends who are not too concerned about it, but should I ever sell some, I don't want to deal with angry customers. Plus, I plan to keep my sketchbooks around. (I do have 10 to 15 years old drawings that are looking fine).

Oh, and I have worked with ink wash some years back, and yes, the imperfections are neat and can be used to great effect. I think I've just moved to a more "dry" way of working, focusing more on precision and cross-hatching. Here's an example:



Anyway, I have a Pentel Pocket brush pen in the mail, and will be looking for the PITT and Staedtler pens.

Still, if any of you know something about a specifically fade-resistant pen, please let me know. Also, suggestions for alternatives to felt- / fibre-tip pens are welcome.

thanks again for your input, the both of you, and Ilaekae, wow ... that's the sort of artistic war story I wish to have a load of if I live to be a grandparent..

[Mirana]

They're expensive, and you have to keep them clean, but you can pick up a Koh-i-Noor Rapidograph and fill it with india ink.

Pitts work reasonably well. I've only started using them a few months back, but they've outlasted the other pens I picked up on a whim--literally. I made a chart with the pens and how they reacted against marker. Stay away from Alvin Penstix and Staedtler Triplus as their ink turned sepia in about two months.

[Qitsune]

Drawings in a sketchbook normally aren't exposed to light all that much and should be safer longer than anything that you may want to hang on a wall.

[CCThrom]

I know this is a pain in the ass... but really, THE most archival thing you can do is dip-quill pen and india ink. Hunt/Speedball nibs are the most common here. Based on the example you posted, you would do just FINE with a combination of #102 crowquill and #107 hawksquill nibs.

The downside is they're not so convenient to carry around and use in your sketchbook... you kind of need a desk. I've found that the Pitt pens work well and last longer than Micron, but I only use them for plein-aire sketching, or if I'm in a hurry, or if I have to work away from my studio for some reason. Otherwise, it's dip-quill pens and a good sable brush for me.

[sbn..]

Mirana, what you said gave me the idea to do my own test. I'll get a Pitt and try it out against whatever else I have lying about. I also have a pocket microscope for checking prints, I'll see what I can glean from the different inks. Regarding Koh-I-Noor (or Rotring) technical pens, I think I know of a professional comic artist who uses them that I can ask about the ups and downs. Come to think of it, he's probably a good source for info about all this, I'll see if he has time for a few questions.

Qitsune, right, most of my examples of old drawings that haven't faded are in books. One thing I've heard about windows and UV is that regular double glazed windows provide around a factor 80 sunscreen (in regards to tan / sunburn). Maybe it's a myth, it would be nice with some facts about that and specifically the glass used for framing pictures.

[Mirana]

The frame shop I work at uses TRUview which is all UV protectant, but the higher the quality of glass, the higher the protection (their highest grade stops 97% of UV).

[sbn..]

Hey, CCThrom, I missed your reply thye last time.

Sure, I'll have to look into dip-pens. As I said, I´ve used india ink for washes before, along with sticks, bamboo, brushes and various nibs for line work. I think I ended up with the impression that those are great for more organic, living strokes. Maybe what I actually used were calligraphy nibs. It bothered me that they differed so much according to the angle of the stroke, I remember.

I'd still like to find the best type of artpen for the portability and convenience. Like getting my first laptop and discovering "couch computing", these pens make it possible and easy to draw in a variety of situations and frames of mind.

So, for now I have some things to check out:

1) Try out dip-quills and brushes for studio work.

2) Do a water- / lightproofing test on prospective pens, specifically the Pitt and the Staedtler ISO-certified ones. Look at the strokes in a microscope.

3) Try to contact that guy with the Rapidograph inking technique, to hear what he has to say about this issue.

4) As per Mirana's new info, try to always get drawings framed right if they're going to be displayed.

I'll let you know what I find out!

[CCThrom]

Definitly try the hawksquill... it gives you a very rigid uniform line. (Not as uniform as a rapidograph as there is always a little flex in a dip-pen) I tend to use a flexible nib for outlines and the hawksquill nib for cross-hatching.

[Donna]

I am not sure if they're available where you live, but UniPin pens are awesome They don't fade, dry REALLY fast, don't smudge and are just awesome :]

[Eric Lofgren]

I would personally recommend using India Ink and getting accustomed to using quills and brushes if you desire permanence you can feel confident about. You could also consider using mechanical drafting pens, but I find those things to be a right royal pain in the ass. And they don't give a very expressive line.

For the scanned work I do, though, I'm satisfied with Sharpie's and Staedtlers. The Sharpie's for the big areas and the Staedtler's for the lines and finer details